a moral dilemma

as war looms on the horizon for my country there has actually been talk of possibly reinstating the draft. having just turned 18 i am at the prime age to be drafted into our services. i am a not opposed to war in general, i believe it is necessary at some times, however i am opposed to this war and what Bush is trying to so in general. fortuneately, i am probably going to college and will thus be able to get a deferment and avoid the draft. however, towards the end of the vietnam war, some college deferments were overridden and there is the distinct possibity that the war will spread and last more than 4 years, what then. i used to look down on those who went to canada, but more and more i am sympathizing with. this war is not for national defense like so many claim and i do not want to die to make some oil baron just that much richer. do i then serve in a war which i do not believe and find ethically reprehensible or make the run for canada? its a tough decision i hope i never have to make, but there is the possibility that i might have to. what are your guys thoughts?

You're lucky to be going to college; I on the otherhand am complete draft-fodder should it be reinstated.

As for the oil argument - unless US companies can find a way of seizing the wells or the rights to the wells (and I don't know of any international laws that would allow that), US oil companies would be hurt by a war with Iraq. In the short term, they'd profit from the increased price of oil, but once the war is over and sanctions are lifted, Iraq's oil production would go up a great deal from what it is now. That means lower long term oil prices. Interestinly enough, the Russian government just signed a HUGE oil deal with Saddam Hussein's government - I wonder why they're opposed to regime change.

Now drilling in ANWAR, [u]that[/u] is a direct pay-off to US oil interests, have no doubt about it.

I agree that Saddam Hussein has to be removed from power. His history tells us all to clearly what kind of man he is, what his intentions are, and that if something isn't done about it now, it will be much harder to put it right later. In the meantime, Iraqi citizens are suffering and dieing under UN sanctions that shouldn't be lifted until Hussein proves he has completely put his WMD programs to rest. That isn't going to happen because he isn't going to give up on them. It's not his nature.

What ticks me off about Bush is that he made two or three bogus stabs at regime change in Iraq before he hit upon the UN resolution violations. Trying to link Saddam Hussein to Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists (who hate him) is pure bull pucky, and quoting documents that don't exist to make the case completely screwed our crediblity in the international arena and have very effectively destroyed any chances of forming a broad coalition. That would be OK to a certain extent, but if those extra troops are needed, I'm probably going to be ones wishing I had a well-connected father to get me into the Texas Air National Guard where I could spend my time AWOL, snorting cocain, and defending the skies of Texas from Mexico rather than in the line of fire.

I don’t know that the plan revolves around seizing oil wells so much as installing a sympathetic government willing to sell oil to all its friends at, shall we say, a preferential rate. Then everyone who bought cheep oil can then sell at a vast profit and become even more fat and rich than before and by that 3rd mansion they had always wanted.

I am now too old for any draft however I believe in fighting for just causes.

I think it is up to us as individuals to decide if a cause is just or not and act as we see fit.

Don’t take my or any one else’s word for it, find out the facts for your self and make your own decisions based on what you know and feel.

Some times the most courageous path is to stand up and say “No you are wrong, I will not fight for you” and accept the consequences. Look at Mohandas K. Gandhi !

Other times you have to get your head down.

Ever see a film called starship troopers ? There is a line in it about having your own opinions being the only real freedom any one really has. I think they had a point !

But don’t take my word for it………

Originally posted by Dr_simon
I don?t know that the plan revolves around seizing oil wells so much as installing a sympathetic government willing to sell oil to all its friends at, shall we say, a preferential rate. Then everyone who bought cheep oil can then sell at a vast profit and become even more fat and rich than before and by that 3rd mansion they had always wanted.

Oil prices are based on the world market; the more oil their is on the market, the less [u]everybody[/u] pays no matter who's selling it. I'm pretty sure the Russian deal means they get to refine it and then sell it themselves. A different regime in Iraq could mean somebody else refines the oil and that could cost Russia some much needed jobs.

My father's a ex Canadian Air Force officer, I got uncle's that fought WW2 and other uncles in different branches of the military.

For me there's no questions about it, I'd fight for my country and for others as well. I won't go search for a war but if it came to me i'd anwser the call.

I was taught that freedom has a price and it was worth fighting for.

I don't beleive in what Bush does right now. Not to be disrespectfull to the US people but Bush looks like a power ungry junky always looking to pick a fight. I don't see the crisis with a good eye and fear the consequenses. You can't expect other cultures to live the way you want them too. Part of freedom is respecting cultures.

I'm not talking about hussien but about the poor people that will suffer from this futur war.

I'm not aware of every aspect of this crisis and don't really take side right now. Somebody should tell Bush to ease up on the power trip for a while, children might suffer in the end.

I would stay in my country and face up the decisions I made when I elected that president. It's really for me to say that right now since I don't feel treatened, if the day should come and they draft me here, I'll probably sing another song :)

We're all strong and powerfull in theory, sitting down in our living room and watching tv ,but when we have to face the facts, it's often another story

reading this post over one more time makes me realise that this is probably not helping you, but was fun to write :)

[Edited by Benoit on 01-21-2003 at 07:49 PM]

Originally posted by Raskolnikov

Oil prices are based on the world market; the more oil their is on the market, the less [u]everybody[/u] pays no matter who's selling it. I'm pretty sure the Russian deal means they get to refine it and then sell it themselves. [/B]

Yes and the trick is to be a middle man. Who do you think will get and make money from such jobs after an invasion ? It wont be the orphans and widdows who have just had there village bombed !

Jobs for the boys perhaps ?

There are dangerous, evil and corrupt regimes all over the world, why are they not facing invasion ? As for all the abuses of human rights, well look at amnesty international if you want a list, I do not think Iraq is the worst or only offender !

There is more to this story than meets the eye I think !

People are afraid about the augmentation of fuel price.
With the war.

The price of the barrel will never be a problem since I really doubt it would stay over 30$ in the futur for one simple reason.

If the barrel should go over 30$ it would mean that it is time to search for new fuel productions that are, at this point, non lucrative since they are well over the price of the barrel.

This means that even if the cost of producing fuel in america via non traditional ways is not profitable right now, if the barrel gets too hich it would then be profitable since we, customers, are willing to pay that much.

Just think for a moment, if we are able to produce fuel with another process and use our own natural ressources. Then why would we need Hussien's fuel. There would be no reason for it.

We got tons of fuel in sand in canada (can't remember the scientific word for it). We do not transform it yet since the price of producing a barrel is too high. We're better off buying from Hussein.

And what about other things like Hydrogen and electricity, natural gas. If they decide to up the price of the barrel too high, those ressources might be cheaper to produce.

This is why I don't beleive that the price of the barrel is such an amazing weapon. Short term maybe but never on a long term horizon.

I would be curious to see the amount of money spent on developping new energy sources to slowly detached ourself of our need of fuel.

Just a point of view I heard and believe in.

I'm not going to some dumbass war.

Non-extradition country here I come.

you are sooooo lucky to have this dilema

here you turn 18 and.. poof... you're military property by law for the next 3 years

if i were you i'd do as i think is right. if you're against the war don't run away but say your opinion out loud. that's what US's all about isn't it?


BTW, you know where the warheads are going to hit... :eek:

I - and probably most of the non americal world too - will never understand why the US thinks thinks of itself as the worlds peacebringer. they stir **** everywhere on this planet. i wonder where this will lead to. however.

this war is not about oil. this war is about the american economy. up to now when america was short of cash it started a war somewhere in the world. war is good business. what a shame. no wonder that there are countries on this planet that do hate the US. I once was a fan of the US. I wanted to go there and maybe even live there. But now all i feel for the US (when i talk of the US i dont mean all its people - that would be unfair) is pity. The gouvernment makes the americans believe that they are the biggest, greatest and best, and that the rest of the world has to shiver in fear and that the rest of the world is underdeveloped. That is not too far from the methods Adolf Hitler used if you ask me.

[Edited by Azrael on 01-22-2003 at 02:19 AM]

Economical issues should be solved economicaly... Using military power to sieze some oil wells is realy disgusting ... How could such a country that's considered to be on top of the world by all measures , deny the right of simple people with different ethnicity , race & religion in living peacefully , is it just for Oil?

I believe in war for self defense ONLY ... If anybody attacks my contry , I'll go ahead & fight ... But invasion isn't self defense by all means.

This war against Iraq isn't realy for the mass-desrtuction weapons the U.S. claims Saddam's regiem has ... or else why aren't they taking similar actions against N Korea , simply bec. Bush is afraid of the N Korean reaction ... If he was so sure of Saddam's weapons or even had a doubt he would give it a thousand thoughts before he speaks this way about war , but since Bush is sure Saddam has got nothing that's a real threat but his ego & foolish dictator**** speaks , Bush can easily speak about war without fear.

The goals of this war is very clear and simple , it's for Oil & domination , not for anything else.

I'm surprised that most of the western societies, specialy in U.S. are against Bush's policies ...

I'm just wondering how is this guy just going on with his plans inspite of all this local & international refusal ?
It's very funny, I was thinking that only third world contries can be controlled by a one man policy... It seem to happen in developed contries too , but looks a bit more decent.

since this *seemed* to start on sept 11 at the WTC...

What is the bigger threat to civilisation? This terroract? or the historically grown reasons that humiliatingly cornered those people that much, that they think that the only way out of the dilemma for them and their families are such suicidal terroracts?

Have we REALY been confronted with a new dimension of terror on sept 11th? or did it just show its face on a rather unexpected place?

How do you think are the feelings of the iraqui population towards the daily bombardements? And where the two atomic bombs against Nagasaki and Hisoshima not also acts of terrors - even far worse than septemper 11th? how would you categorize the exhaustive extinction of nature and the killing of countless people in Vietnam?

Questions like this have to be allowed or else we are heading towards a dark future!

Whats all this terror about?

on the one hand it is about a politically wanted, forcefull spread of power regardless of the vital interrests of men and whole cultures, that are shorn off any space and freedom, materially or mentally.

ON the other hand it is about obstruction against discrimination, violence, injustice, poverty, dependence, about all the madness in the world, about men who kill themselves to make aware of the helplessnes and pain of their people. Continuous humilliation is the seed that grows hatered and destrucion.

Violence MUST end!

It seems that noone wants to acknowledge how this all is liked to the economy and millitary policy of the USA and the World trade organisation. how can you be surprised that things like this happen?? The USA MUST change their disrespect towards the rest of the world and all the poor people, or they will see that there is more to be happening. this is the perfect examply why policy has to be changed!

dont you see where we are heading too mr bush?



[Edited by Azrael on 01-22-2003 at 01:29 PM]

i agree Azzy, well said!

Well said Azrael. I swear US pople in future won´t even know a sh*it about Hiroshima and Nagasaki and they will think they we´re doing right thing in Vietnam while watching all those boring and patriotic Hollywood war movies. With another word they´ll be brainwashed.

US gov. in my opinion are the leading terorist right now. I´m truly sorry for all death´s on 11-sept. but it´s sad that when someone say terorist, they directly think about islam and 11 sept and acts like Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Vietnam and bombing of Yugoslavia during in the late 90-s wich are all acts commited by USA are forgotten.

It´s also sad that EU are turning into real kiss a*s*s lickers and are afraid to say against USA ´cause they don´t won´t to get bad reputation. Now, is that democracy. EU rule them self as they say but are only involved in small issues like let poeple vote for Euro (EU money) and let people vote for this and that wich is all on one side important but on the other side stupid and only a mask so that we think, this is great. We (poeple) are ruling the world.

BUT when war comes in picture, nowone asks us should we go in war with Iraq our not. USA f*ucks people´s opinion and decide self what to do and whatever they decide EU motherf*uckin´ so called presidents say well done mr. Bush.

BUSH is the greatest dictator and terorist of all time closly followed by Hitler.

Originally posted by Dr_simon
There are dangerous, evil and corrupt regimes all over the world, why are they not facing invasion ? As for all the abuses of human rights, well look at amnesty international if you want a list, I do not think Iraq is the worst or only offender !

You're absolutely right. I have however read Amnesty's report on Iraq and it's littered with political assassinations and torture of political opponents, mass killings of innocent civilians, war crimes, and virtually every earmark of a regime that should not be allowed to stay in power. Just this morning NPR news featured a story about atheletes in Iraq's Olympic program (run by one of Saddam's sons) being tortured for poor performance. Iraq is uniqe in that the terms ending the Gulf War were contingant upon Iraq disarming and submitting to weapons inspections. Saddam Hussien has had over a decade to meet those terms and has failed miserably. He doesn't care that his people are starving and impoverished due to the sanctions that are also linked to Iraq's disarmament. It keeps his enemys weak and gives him propoganda leverage.

Originally posted by PonyOne
I don't have anything against fighting for what I believe in, and that is why if the Palestinians and Lebanese ever stage a full-on, massive all out combat assault on Israel to try and eradicate it, I will go over and enlist.

One of Saddam Hussien's top targets is Israel.

Originally posted by Azrael
I - and probably most of the non americal world too - will never understand why the US thinks thinks of itself as the worlds peacebringer. they stir **** everywhere on this planet.

I appreciate where you're coming from and am well aware of much of my nation's disasterous foreign policy, but when we do nothing we're accused of being "isolationists." Not helping out Afghanistan after the Soviet Union withdrew ultimately helped the Taliban come to power, encouraged Heroin production, and gave Osama bin Laden a base of operations - costing lots of lives. Not getting involved with World War II when it first broke out nearly allowed the Nazis enough of a headstart to win the war - costing millions of lives.
"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it."

Originally posted by aiwass
Then came North Korea, who, unlike Iraq and their pewny little biological weapons, had actual NOCLEAR WEAPONS, and a history of aggression and hostility against the West FAR WORSE than that of Iraq. How does Bush stop them? Hm... His troops are all in Iraq!

A Small Pox outbreak can very easily kill many more people than a single nuclear detonation and will do so slowly and painfully. At last count, Saddam's biological and chemical stockpile was enough to kill the world's population three times over. North Korea's government is also much more concerned with self defense and self preservation than anything else. Aggression and hostility towards the West? Communist North Koreans tried to take over South Korea, the South Koreans asked the US to help out, and we did. The rest is forty years of posturing aimed at getting food and financial aid from the West. Saddam Hussein on the other hand is concerned with conquest. There are some very big differences between North Korea and Iraq today, why shouldn't the be delt with differently?

Originally posted by Dejan Sajinovic
Well said Azrael. I swear US pople in future won´t even know a sh*it about Hiroshima and Nagasaki and they will think they we´re doing right thing in Vietnam while watching all those boring and patriotic Hollywood war movies. With another word they´ll be brainwashed.

US gov. in my opinion are the leading terorist right now. I´m truly sorry for all death´s on 11-sept. but it´s sad that when someone say terorist, they directly think about islam and 11 sept and acts like Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Vietnam and bombing of Yugoslavia during in the late 90-s wich are all acts commited by USA are forgotten.

Rewind to 1943-45 for a second. Japanese soldiers were fighting to the death to defend every single island between Hawaii and Japan. There were virtually no prisoners of war as very, very few Japanese soldiers were surrendering despite being cut off from their supplies and very clearly losing the war. This links into the Bushido Code and the Japanese sense of honor at the time which made it a great discrace to surrender. Japanese civillians on Okinowa jumped off cliffs rather than live with the humiliation of seeing the island taken by US Marines. This all came at very heavy cost to the lives of American soldiers as well. The atomic bomb was seen as a way to force the Japanese to the table to surrender, and it worked. All tolled, dropping the bombs certainly saved American lives and probably saved a great deal of Japanese lives too.
Also, before attempting to make the Japanese into martyrs, please do some research into their horrible treetment of Chinese and other civillians in the areas they conquered, their total disregard for the Geneva Convention (both again tieing into the Bushido Code which makes it a disgrace to be defeated or to surrender), and into Comfort Women as well.
You should also remember that the air strikes against Yugoslavia were to defend Muslims (Kosivar Albanians) from a corrupt, racist dictator who was generally bad for the entire nation and is currently on trial in an international court for his war crimes.

I don't like war, I don't like fighting, and I hate to see people suffer. However, let's look at our options with Iraq:
1). Leave things as are. Maybe contain Saddam Hussein to Iraq, maybe not. Definately see a lot more Iraqis on the street suffer and die under sanctions.
2). Lift sanctions with Saddam Hussein still in power and pretend his past never happened. Face a nuclear, chemically, and biologically armed dictator with eyes on domination of the entire region (Israel included) within a few years.
3). Remove Saddam Hussein from power.

Now excluding the US government, let's look at the people supporting option 3 - Most former UN weapons inspectors, a generally very liberal and dove-ish Tony Blaire, Iraqi defectors... and especially FORMER IRAQI WEAPONS SCIENTISTS who tell us that most of the Iraqi population doesn't like Saddam's regime at all, but is too afraid to say or do anything about it. Think back to the mass surrender of Iraqi troops in the Gulf War - back in the days when the Iraqi people were fairly well off.

Now the major parties against war with Iraq are the French, German, and Russian governments who do a lot of very profitable business with Saddam Hussein (oil/arms sales), a lot of autocratic governments with numerous human rights "hiccups" they might conceivably have to answer for, Islamic Fundamentalists (who are against the US no matter what (yes, I do agree that [u]we[/u] are responsible for making them so acutely aware of us)), and a lot of organizations who are opposed to war of any kind on any circumstance.

I think the Iraqi people and the world deserve better than options 1 and 2. I just wish that option 3 had never been placed into Bush's inept hands. It should have been taken care of atleast four years ago.

I also wish that the United States wasn't virtually alone in choosing this path. I may well be one of the ones who pay the price for that.

[Edited by Raskolnikov on 01-22-2003 at 06:36 PM]

Please don’t think that I am US bashing, I’m currently living here and I love the place. I also don’t trust the US media or government one bit! They will feed you manipulative propaganda until it comes out your ears. If you don’t believe me look at the adverts on your TV every night telling you Marijuana is a killer drug! The current government has openly admitted that it will lie through its teeth to anyone to get its way.

I can maybe see some parallels:

I have however read Amnesty's report on Iraq and it's littered with political assassinations (JFK ?) and torture of political opponents (may be not political opponents but how about the state sponsored murder of the mentally ill, feeding LSD to the mentally ill and administering electro-convulsive therapy whilst they are tripping! Ouch !), mass killings of innocent civilians (several spring to mind that involve the use of the military to shoot US students (Kent state in Ohio....)), war crimes (The US made a fuss about being exempt from war crime trials in Europe recently, why is that I wonder !), and virtually every earmark of a regime that should not be allowed to stay in power (were they voted in by a clear majority in the first place ? Is this a democracy?).

We need to be careful about dealing out judgment I think! I look back at the history of the UK, my home country and it is little better!

I would support this war if the whole UN council were behind it. I am also not aware of any financial dealing between Germany and Iraq or France and Iraq, who have just vetoed an invasion though I may be wrong in this assumption.

Even though, I don’t think that unilaterally or bilaterally, America or the UK should be able to make decisions about who gets to govern which country, as that is, when all is said and done just another form of despotism.

As far as solutions, well I don’t have any ! Ordinary people are going to be the ones to foot the bill whatever the outcome. If we invade Iraq we may well get rid of SH. On the other hand we may also play straight into the hands of Ussama Bed Linen, and that would be a very terrible thing!

No nation is blameless and no people can honestly claim their hands to be bloodless. As such, slinging accusations of "Well, you did ______!" back and forth are a waste of time and effort (Ireland vrs. England, Israel vrs. Palestine, Red Socks vrs. The Yankees, etc). Nobody is pure enough to win that argument. Also, getting one's news from one source only encourages that argument as the news becomes nondescript headlines.
Here's an example: President G. W. Bush was elected by a minority of voters. That can be pretty damning, but when you consider that it is the result of the Republican and Democratic parties putting forth two really crappy candidates, it's no suprise. Then again, as I've said earlier, this current issue should have been resolved long before Bush ever took office, but that too is no suprise when you consider that for Clinton to try this would have been pollitical suicide.

So let's boil this down to it's essential elements:

• Iraq invaded Kuwait which ultimately resulted in a large coalition of nations removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait in the Persian Gulf War
  


• The terms ending that war were that Iraq was to disarm and submit to UN weapons inspections or face a continuation of hostilities resulting in Saddam Hussein's removal from power.
  


• Saddam Hussein has pursued weapons of mass destruction anyway and has impeeded every international attempt to enforce the terms ending the Gulf War.
  


• Left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein will almost certainly begin to aggressively expand Iraq's borders.
  


• Keeping Saddam Hussein on a short enough leash to *possibly* contain him requires sanctions that have so far starved over 500,000 Iraqi children to death.
  

There is a solution, it's not pretty, and I too wish it wasn't being made in such a decidedly uni/bi-lateral fassion. Nobody else seems to be willing to solve the problem, they want to put it off until later. It's a human enough reaction, but enough is enough.

So how do we then deal with all of the Arab nations united against the UK and the US, feeding the propaganda machine of non other than the despicable mr bed linen ?

If the Arab nations really want to hurt us they only need to stop selling us oil, no need for fancy biological weapons!!

I think this problem runs deeper than simple deposing SH.

In an ideal world he would be removed from power in a bloodless coup, however that is not going to happen.

If we get rid of SH and install a puppet, after all SH was once one of the USA's puppets (during the cold war), what is to stop the new puppet becoming a carbon copy of SH? 10 years time we have to deal with the same problem over again! It was not so long ago that the US was giving Iraq aid in the form of guns and bombs to kill the people of Iran which, surprise surprise, was backed by the USSR. The USSR was also doing the same thing as the US only with Iran. Same thing was going on in Afghanistan. And Africa. And South America !

Once again the superpowers are fighting their battles by proxy using the blood of other far away people to fight their ridiculous wars!

I can’t see that this solves anything other than making arms manufactures and undertakers rich!

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
No nation is blameless and no people can honestly claim their hands to be bloodless. As such, slinging accusations of "Well, you did ______!" back and forth are a waste of time and effort (Ireland vrs. England, Israel vrs. Palestine, Red Socks vrs. The Yankees, etc). Nobody is pure enough to win that argument.

So this is how you justify whats going on right now? nobody said that the rest of the world is withouth sin. but as you stated earlier "learn from the past" - but now you (not you personally of course *L*) are going to make the same mistakes again. What do you think will happen? Bush bashes iraq. fine. then iraq is under american dictators. and that will make bad blood again for do you realy think the iraq population will cheer at you when you march in? what building will be next hit by terrorists? or maybe a little biological weapon set free in Washington?

peace CAN NOT be brought to life with War! i wonder how may centuries it will take untill mankind will understand this.. if it will last that long.