a moral dilemma

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
...I mean after he blows Israel off the map (and the neighboring countries with it), do you really believe he would say "Yeah, that's all I wanted to do. I can retire now."???

I realy doubt that Saddam can blow Israel off the map , even if he stays in power for more decades .

As a matter of fact , before an Iraqi WMD missle reaches Israel (if Iraqi WMDs realy exist) , Iraq is going be blown off the map first ... Haven't you heard about Israel's huge arsenal of WMDs , including a realy big one full of nuke heads ?
BTW ,isn't it illegal for a country like Israel to have nuke heads ? And from what I know , Israel never accepted full inspections on their nuclear activities ... They also refuse UN investigations on some their non-human military actions against palestinian civilians .
My point here is that Iraq co-operate and respect the UN hell more than Israel , and Iraq is the only one who gets the sh*t... Is that fair ?

And now, this sound like the "preemptive strikes" bullsh*t ... You can't judge someone for a crime he has never commited just cuz you're just afraid he MIGHT do it .... This isn't justice, not at all man.

Criminals are judged and sentenced for the crimes they realy commited , not those they might have commited.

Originally posted by Lordathestrings

Originally posted by Azrael ...I just remind you of WW2 - tonns of people where folowing Hitler and BELIEVED in him though he was only abusing everybody.
And one thing is for sure - NO war is good - for no reason AT ALL. There is ALWAYS a peacefull way. I cannot understand ANYONE who says "we have to make war for i think its the best solution". are you the one who dies there?...

You have blown huge holes in your own argument here, without any need for me to explain further!

I don't see any holes here, Azrael's point was that there's always a peacefull solution , specialy in the hands of the more powerfull one (the U.S. for sure) , and that some people speaks very easily of war just cuz they've never seen any real one except for these "Disgusting" pix and vids they watch on TV and says :" oh , so horrible !" , but they'll probably never know how horrible a real war is .
And yeah , Old people send young ones to die for old people's bullsh*t, while the old people are enjoying their sleep in comfortable beds in their homes.


Can you please explain further ?

what gets me confused about the Iraq situation is, why does W.Bush care so damn much?
i mean, there are many other countries with nuclear capabilities that are far greater than the RUMORED strength of Saddam Hussein. but Bush doesn't pay any attention to them. North Korea is like, look at all our nuclear weapons! we're going to have a field day! but then bush finds three EMPTY chemical warheads in Iraq and sh*ts a brick. what the hell?
also, what makes the US so damn omnipotent? they have so much f*cking nuclear power, they could nuke the whole damn world several times over and more. but THEY are somehow untouchable. why do they get to keep THEIR firepower but Iraq can't? i'm not saying Iraq SHOULD have nuclear capabilities, but i don't see why Bush is so hung up on it.
it just doesn't add up.

canuck7 - You're damn right dude .

If the U.S. was sure about Iraqi nuke capabilities as they are sure about the N Korean , they would have give it lots of thoughts before they talk about war cuz of the serious casualities Iraq might cause to them and to Israel too.

But since they're sure that Iraq got nothing that can harm anybody these days, the U.S. talk so easily about this war.

thats basically what i tried to say with my earlier post - i dont see any hole in my statements either.. but maybe i´m not that open minded *LOL*

Originally posted by SLY

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
...I mean after he blows Israel off the map (and the neighboring countries with it), do you really believe he would say "Yeah, that's all I wanted to do. I can retire now."???

I realy doubt that Saddam can blow Israel off the map , even if he stays in power for more decades .

As a matter of fact , before an Iraqi WMD missle reaches Israel (if Iraqi WMDs realy exist) , Iraq is going be blown off the map first ... Haven't you heard about Israel's huge arsenal of WMDs , including a realy big one full of nuke heads ?
BTW ,isn't it illegal for a country like Israel to have nuke heads ? And from what I know , Israel never accepted full inspections on their nuclear activities ... They also refuse UN investigations on some their non-human military actions against palestinian civilians .
My point here is that Iraq co-operate and respect the UN hell more than Israel , and Iraq is the only one who gets the sh*t... Is that fair ?

And now, this sound like the "preemptive strikes" bullsh*t ... You can't judge someone for a crime he has never commited just cuz you're just afraid he MIGHT do it .... This isn't justice, not at all man.

Criminals are judged and sentenced for the crimes they realy commited , not those they might have commited.

SLY dude i dont know where have you been during the last 3 years, but i got some news for you: UN doesnt like israel. as a matter of fact, un is a pro arabic organisation which denies/denied the right of the jews to have our own country.
2 years ago or so, 3 israeli soilders were kidnapped and killed in lebanon. un soilders who saw the whole thing from their bases in south lebanon didnt tell about itto the idf and denied the whole case for few months.
later , when koffi anan admited un people knew about kidnapping, he refused to show the video his people had filmed to the families of those soilders.
Why do you expect us to like un here after such cases?
Besides, if saddam does posses those weapons where is his respect to the all mighty un?
he doesnt want his ass to get kicked so he acts as if he were cooperating, but thats all bull**** man..

Originally posted by SLY

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
[B] ...I mean after he blows Israel off the map (and the neighboring countries with it), do you really believe he would say "Yeah, that's all I wanted to do. I can retire now."???

I realy doubt that Saddam can blow Israel off the map , even if he stays in power for more decades .

As a matter of fact , before an Iraqi WMD missle reaches Israel (if Iraqi WMDs realy exist) , Iraq is going be blown off the map first ... Haven't you heard about Israel's huge arsenal of WMDs , including a realy big one full of nuke heads ?

The MAD principal that governed the Cold War won't work here. An ICBM fired from the US or USSR would take over twenty minutes to land. Both the US and USSR had and still have satalites and radar installations that track potential launches and so there was time for the launches to be confirmed, codes could be read and the missles could be armed and a retalitory volley could be fired before the first missles launched hit their target.
Mutually Assured Destruction.
As far as anyone knows, Israel has no such monitoring facillities, and even if they did (or if the US were to warn them), Iraqi missles would have already vaporized Jerusalem. Iraq could very easily make a first strike against Israel with no Israeli retaliation at all because the government and military command is all dead (along with a few million civilians). This is why Iraq isn't allowed missles with a range greater than 90km, and why the US is pointing out very clearly that Iraq keeps trying to purchase rocket engines that have a range greater than 90km, EVEN NOW.

BTW ,isn't it illegal for a country like Israel to have nuke heads ? And from what I know , Israel never accepted full inspections on their nuclear activities ... They also refuse UN investigations on some their non-human military actions against palestinian civilians .
My point here is that Iraq co-operate and respect the UN hell more than Israel , and Iraq is the only one who gets the sh*t... Is that fair ?

Iraq is the only nation mentioned in the above paragraph with a sitting government responsible for unprovoked invasions of sovereign nations, and I haven't heard anything about Israel signing any agreements banning them from having nuclear weapons.

And now, this sound like the "preemptive strikes" bullsh*t ... You can't judge someone for a crime he has never commited just cuz you're just afraid he MIGHT do it .... This isn't justice, not at all man.

Criminals are judged and sentenced for the crimes they realy commited , not those they might have commited.

The crime in question here is Saddam's invasion of Kuwait 12 years ago and the obvious fact that Saddam's government has not lived up to the agreements it made as a result of it. When criminals violate their parole, they go back to jail, usually with increased sentences. Sadam has violated the agreements ending a war, the war is going to be finished. All this other stuff - the long list of human rights violations, political assassinations, his long history of agression, total state control of the Iraqi media, etc are all factors in determining the next best course of action.

Taj Mahal said it best:
I don't care what in the world that you do
As long as you do what you say you're going to
Ain't nobody's business but your own

I honestly don't care (and I don't think anybody should) if a nation like Canada or France does or doesn't have WMDs; they aren't aggressive and don't have an agenda of conquest. Even China and North Korea while oppressive to their people still demonstrate the basic responsibility to not use such weapons except as a last resort. Saddam has shown very clearly that WMDs are his primary strategy, "If I have enough of these, nobody's going to try and stop me, and I can do anything I want."
Saddly, you're right, this can totally be averted, but the responsibility lies totally with Saddam Hussein. But he holds up the inspection process for months and years at a time, makes a small concession under enormous pressure, the international community says "HEY! He just let us talk to a (thouroughly coached) Nuclear Scientist, let's give him more time to dig in!" ...and the farce continues.
But what I find most saddening though is that every week we put off removing this domination-bent dictator, the death toll ratchets up for everybody.

Originally posted by SLY

Originally posted by Lordathestrings

Originally posted by Azrael ...I just remind you of WW2 - tonns of people where folowing Hitler and BELIEVED in him though he was only abusing everybody.
And one thing is for sure - NO war is good - for no reason AT ALL. There is ALWAYS a peacefull way. I cannot understand ANYONE who says "we have to make war for i think its the best solution". are you the one who dies there?...

You have blown huge holes in your own argument here, without any need for me to explain further!

I don't see any holes here, Azrael's point was that there's always a peacefull solution , specialy in the hands of the more powerfull one (the U.S. for sure) , and that some people speaks very easily of war just cuz they've never seen any real one except for these "Disgusting" pix and vids they watch on TV and says :" oh , so horrible !" , but they'll probably never know how horrible a real war is .
And yeah , Old people send young ones to die for old people's bullsh*t, while the old people are enjoying their sleep in comfortable beds in their homes.


Can you please explain further ?

Yes, parents and grandparents love to see their children and grandchildren shot up and/or come back from war with psychological damage and nervous disorders.
Get real.

In the US administration and public, many of the "old people" who don't know war 'except for these "Disgusting" pix and vids they watch on TV' actually went through World War II, Korea, and Vietnam.

You and Azrael, though while obviously well intentioned are ignoring the fact that some people in this world will take what they want no matter what the cost and will never give in, ever. Add up all of the facts and it's pretty easy to see that Saddam is one of those people.

Originally posted by SLY

Originally posted by Raskolnikov

Originally posted by SLY
[QUOTE]I know your point, Nukes can be easily hidden ... I didn't say no, but with such inspections it's impossible to hide such things cuz excess shielding and stuff like that could be very noticeable.

It could easily fit within a single truck on an average old shipping pallete, material, shielding and all.

Ok , but that's only where they can hide these weapons and still be in danger of getting caught by the inspectors.

Where can they produce such weapons , in trucks ?!

Actually, yes. Defecting Iraqi Scientists have described mobile weapons research lab and production facilities housed in either trucks or rail road cars.

[i]The Manhatten project fit within a small segment of bleachers, the equipment has only gotten smaller.[i]

Originally posted by SLY
Both sides ? what both sides ? From what I know is that only Iraqies are dying , and mostly of cancer ... Do you know why ?
Cancer rates have increased significantly in Iraq after the war , also since the war ended lots of mutated kids have been born , what is so specialy related that & was used in this war , huh?
Depleted Uranium !

Depleted Uranium rounds fired at tanks in open desert and in Kuwait are causing cancer deaths all around the nation of Iraq? I don't buy it. Come up with a reputable source and we'll discuss this.
Keep in mind, my figure of 500,000 starvation deaths directly linked to sanctions comes from educatedfilm. I think it's pretty safe to say he doesn't hold the official American position.

What do you want them to do with nuke scientists then ? Kill them so they don't get blame for developing nukes , or give them to the U.S. so that the U.S. (Iraq's main enemy now) benifit from them?
Nuclear scientists job isn't just developing nukes ... They teach in colleges and so , it's very normal for any non-nuclear country to have nuclear scientists without being accused for developing nukes.

Not [u]employed[/u] as nuclear scientists, they don't. Employed as professors who teach Chemistry or Physics, sure.

Who said they aren't allowed to have conventional rockets ?? According to the sanctions , Rockets should not exceed a given limit (2 or 3 hundreds as I can remember, not sure though).

Iraq is allowed certian weapons, but is not allowed to import ANY weapons. By the way, the cylinders in question are manufactured WELL beyond the specifications of any army in the world for the task Iraq claims they're for.

Originally posted by Zeppelin
SLY dude i dont know where have you been during the last 3 years, but i got some news for you: UN doesnt like israel. as a matter of fact, un is a pro arabic organisation which denies/denied the right of the jews to have our own country.
2 years ago or so, 3 israeli soilders were kidnapped and killed in lebanon. un soilders who saw the whole thing from their bases in south lebanon didnt tell about itto the idf and denied the whole case for few months.
later , when koffi anan admited un people knew about kidnapping, he refused to show the video his people had filmed to the families of those soilders.
Why do you expect us to like un here after such cases?
Besides, if saddam does posses those weapons where is his respect to the all mighty un?
he doesnt want his ass to get kicked so he acts as if he were cooperating, but thats all bull**** man..

Dude , with all my respect to you , your believes & your country.

More than 5 decades ago , the UN made the resolution considering the division of the Palestinian land between Palestinians & the Jews to establish their Jewish state ( most jews living in Israel now came after the UN resolution)... I'm sure you know this history better than I do.
So this actualy make the UN more of a Pro Israel organization , since they helped establishing Israel in the first place ... How can you accuse the UN of denying you now ??!!

But it's normal that the UN demand their previous resolutions to be applied , and that doesn't make them against someone in particular ... Not to mention that the U.S. has used the VITO against many resolutions that could accuse Israel , although all other countries in the Security Council approved most of these "to go" resolutions .

On the Other hand , Israel denies the right of Palestinians (the original land owners) to have their free state on the division the UN resolution left for them , denies lots of UN resolution considering this issue , and worst of all denies the right of Palestinian refugees to come back to their original homeland ... Don't you see how racist and cruel this is ?!
I wonder why did the well educated & civilized Israeli people vote for such an cruel & evil government again ...

A matter of fact : The current palestinian revolution (intifada) started out against Sharone (in personal) , when he visited the "Masjed Al Aqsa" (an old islamic holy place for worshiping) and threw all the palestinians inside out and didn't allow any of them to come in till he finish his visit ... As you can see , this was very humiliating for them and their religion (from their point of view) , so they started their revolution ... And as he tries to put it out by military force , they go wilder.
I hope that someone who is more peaceful than Sharone come soon , so that we can see some peace in this place on earth .

About the killing of the 3 Israeli soldiers in Lebanon , I remember that Israel was still occupying the south of Lebanon at that time and it's very normal to face such actions of resistance against your country's occupation ...
I don't recall the exact details to argue about the UN role in this , but if you can remember few more years behind (I believe it was '96) , Israel blow away a UN refugee camp in Qana village in Lebanon ... Lots of civilians were killed (few hundreds or so) ,and the Israeli government said they were sorry cuz they had some wrong maps !!
What wrong maps ? I realy doubt if they didn't have full detailed maps for the UN sites in Lebanon , so they must have blown this camp on purpose.
And as usual , the UN didn't take any reaction for what happened.

At least , Saddam shows that he respect the UN by accepting ALL of the resolutions AND accepting full inspections everywhere on their lands.
On the other hand , Sharone declares in public that he is not going to accept any UN resolution that he doesn't like ... What a nice guy ?!

Finally , I was wondering why does Israeli government encourages such a war ... Who do you think will be on blown away by Saddam's WMDs (if he has any) in case the U.S. declares total war ??
From sutdying this man's psychology , it's easy to tell that he'll be trying to revenge upon nations that helped or encouraged the U.S. ... So his suggested top target list would be : Kuwait , Israel , other Gulf States (for using their military bases) .

So whether the Israeli government is dead sure that Saddam has got no WMDs , or they're pretty stupid (I realy doubt that they're stupid) .

[Edited by SLY on 02-08-2003 at 09:27 AM]

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
Depleted Uranium rounds fired at tanks in open desert and in Kuwait are causing cancer deaths all around the nation of Iraq? I don't buy it. Come up with a reputable source and we'll discuss this.
Keep in mind, my figure of 500,000 starvation deaths directly linked to sanctions comes from educatedfilm. I think it's pretty safe to say he doesn't hold the official American position.

I'm dead sure that the number of starvation deaths are hell less than that ... I realy blieve this is the number of the total deaths in Iraq , due to cancer , normal deaths , and may be a little starving people due to sanctions ... But sanctions is not the main reasons for all these deaths .
I'm pretty sure that Iraq produce food pretty enough for their people , and there can't be starvation in Iraq ... At least not even close to Sumalia and other places in Africa's desert nations.

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
Yes, parents and grandparents love to see their children and grandchildren shot up and/or come back from war with psychological damage and nervous disorders.
Get real.

In the US administration and public, many of the "old people" who don't know war 'except for these "Disgusting" pix and vids they watch on TV' actually went through World War II, Korea, and Vietnam.

You and Azrael, though while obviously well intentioned are ignoring the fact that some people in this world will take what they want no matter what the cost and will never give in, ever. Add up all of the facts and it's pretty easy to see that Saddam is one of those people.

Yeah dude , I'd like to defend my country too in case attacked by other nation...
But I'm DEAD sure that parents in the U.S. aren't willing to see their kids die for occupying some other place in the other side of the world , and for no good reasons.

Also how do you think Iraqi people will respond to an american occupation ?? Do you realy think they ALL hate Saddam ?
I can tell you that's not true ... As a matter of fact , this guy controles their poor minds through his media , and of course he's now getting them ready to fight for their lands and so.
Not to mention how many fundamentalists & extremers would take advantage of an american military action against Iraq for their own benifit , and eventualy they'll find more followers than they ever dreamed of.

Dude, this war is going to be disasterous on the U.S. before Iraq, specialy if the inspectors didn't find real WMDs in there.

[Edited by SLY on 02-08-2003 at 09:57 AM]

I think Bush knows what he is doing. In the past everyone has waited almost till its to late. Ex: Hitler, North Korea, North Vietnam. Even though some of Bush's reason is for oil, most of it is to get rid of Hussein. It won't stop all the horrible things that go on in the middle east, but it will help. Hussein has a son who was already over here trying to get something. If people think theses Iraquies are dumb, they aren't. Awhile ago when General Electric built the best jet engines because of the metal alloys they used, all the other countries(even are allies) sent spies over here Cincinatti to get some of the alloys. The Iraquies had the best plan. One of their spies what a janitor at the plant and all he did was put sticky stuff on the bottom of his shoe to pick up the metal dust from where they formed it and smashed it. Took it back to Iraq and they analyzied what kind of alloy it was, and sold it to France for parts for their airplanes during the war they had with Iran. This has told me that we've waited long enough and need to do something about it. Even though a factor is I might get drafted in a few years, I have no problem with that. I will fight and die for the right cause. Most people probally won't agree with me on here because I'm Republican, but thats alright.

Why didn't the U.S. remove Saddam back in '98 when the inspectors left ?

The question is : Why now ?

Because he just finished his job in afghanistan , and thirsty for another regiem changing ?

It's megalomania dude ... He think he's on top of the world now , and he could change anything he doesn't like... Just like the U.K. 100 years ago.

God , I thought that the age of empires was over !

It will probally never end. Osama has 52 children and most likely they will all follow in his footsteps.

http://www.p45rant.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=130

http://www.antiwar.com

Those 2 sites are the daddies :D ,
Who ever seen an interveiw with any of the current inspectors?
Scot Ritter has pointed out alot of cruical points totally neglected, like the HALF LIFE of the precursors, which is not being covered or even casually mentioned. Media Black out?

Originally posted by SLY

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
Yes, parents and grandparents love to see their children and grandchildren shot up and/or come back from war with psychological damage and nervous disorders.
Get real.

In the US administration and public, many of the "old people" who don't know war 'except for these "Disgusting" pix and vids they watch on TV' actually went through World War II, Korea, and Vietnam.

You and Azrael, though while obviously well intentioned are ignoring the fact that some people in this world will take what they want no matter what the cost and will never give in, ever. Add up all of the facts and it's pretty easy to see that Saddam is one of those people.

Yeah dude , I'd like to defend my country too in case attacked by other nation...
But I'm DEAD sure that parents in the U.S. aren't willing to see their kids die for occupying some other place in the other side of the world , and for no good reasons.

Also how do you think Iraqi people will respond to an american occupation ?? Do you realy think they ALL hate Saddam ?
I can tell you that's not true ... As a matter of fact , this guy controles their poor minds through his media , and of course he's now getting them ready to fight for their lands and so.
Not to mention how many fundamentalists & extremers would take advantage of an american military action against Iraq for their own benifit , and eventualy they'll find more followers than they ever dreamed of.

Almost the same things were said about the Gulf War, just add "Iraq's battle hardened army is going to make for a tough fight." Almost none of came to pass, especially in regards to Iraq's army. The only units Saddam can depend on are his Republican Guard. The rest of his army will probably defect as soon as they get a chance - again, but only this time with an oportunity to liberate their own nation. Consider; most of Iraq's population is NOT comprised of the Sunni population that Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath party is based in. Just the Shi'ah Muslims in the South of Iraq compose 55% of the population and has suffered greatly under Saddam's rule. I do not know the Kurdish population's share of the pie chart, but that leaves Saddam's potential support base at well under 45% of the population. Iraqi defectors consistantly insist that there is very little loyalty to him - only lip service to spare themselves and their families extra pain and suffering. American journalists get 100% "on the record" support for Saddam as Iraqi officials carely keep watch, but are often whispered quiet support when those officials aren't looking.
Computer analysis of Saddam's public apperances suggest that he hasn't actually apeared in public in six years - that those apearances are covered by look-alikes. I would suggest that he himself doesn't think his actual support base is very strong in numbers.

I still see no reason to defend the man, the regime, nor do I see a peaceful 'solution' that won't cost more lives in the long run and allows the Iraqi people "life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness" that I believe they deserve.

Imperialism is what gives people like Bin Laden his strength in gathering followers around him ... Actualy Bin Laden is an american made extremist, and unfortunately people in the arab & islamic world are the ones who get the blame for his actions.

Originally posted by SLY
Why didn't the U.S. remove Saddam back in '98 when the inspectors left ?

I've said this atleast three times; Bill Clinton, the sitting US President could have never built even the domestic support to try it. I know you're not as familiar with US politics as I am, but a member of the Democratic Party just can't build support for a war effectively - their support base is too liberal to try it.

The question is : Why now ?

About three thousand years ago, a Chinese man (probably) named Sun Tzu wrote a book called "The Art of War." I highly suggest it to anybody who has not read it. It's a tactical handbook but is mostly a collection of very common sense instructions and is very applicable to every day life and business - a huge part of the reason it's been in print so long. Anyway, one of those common sense ideas is "attack when your enemy is weak and you are strong." I very much beleive that Saddam's weapons of mass destruction programs are still active and that he is a threat to the world, but he isn't as strong as he could be. But as time passes his strength grows, even under UN sanctions because what food and wealth does come into Iraq goes to his army, then everybody else. Alowing him to build strength before attacking prolongs the fight, increases casualties on all sides and makes victory less certain. Striking now minimizes all of those factors and gives a much better overall chance for true victory.

I realize that you see this as a huge disaster about to happen, and I recognize that it could be. But I see a responsibility to help, and a responsibility to act, and honestly this as a chance to really do something good for the world, and especially for the people of Iraq. I think a rebuilt, prosperous, and free Iraq is as a good a way to prove that the bin Ladens of the world are full of crap as any publicity campagne or Voice of America broadcast.

Great successes only come with great risk.