touchy topic....just wondering

before i write what i'm going to, i'll let everyone know that i don't plan on taking this much farther than my initial question and if the children behave like children, i will kill my own thread. i have no qualms about that.


so i have this to ask:


with almost everything in life, the burden of proof lays on proving that something had happened or that something does in fact exist. nowhere is this more the case than with evolution, where it is constantly scrutinized and challeneged to prove itself. and so with that in mind, i ask this:

why is the burden of proof not on the theologians and other religious leaders to prove that their deity is real? why is the burden of proof always put on those in doubt to show that something might not exist? why are those who would ask for scientific evidence presented and researched by independent parties simply frowned upon and shunned?

sorry if this ruffles feathers...but it just seems counter-intuitive to me to require proof for everything but to require proof with religion is so aggressively frowned upon. i mean if someone said they could cure cancer then you asked for proof and they yelled at you for doubting them and saying they don't have to provide proof....wouldn't you think they're a liar and a jerk for being mean to you when you were skeptical?


again, i'm sorry but with the whole pope vs the angry muslims thing recently...i just kinda started thinking about this stuff. i realize religion is something very deeply imbedded in the majority of humanity...but it just seems to be absurd at this point in the history of humanity to not require more and put the burden of proof where it logically belongs.


and to the mods, you're welcome to delete this thread if it makes you squeamish...i understand. i'm not looking to start a fight...just ask questions that it seems are never answered by people. just please send me a love letter so i'll know it wasn't just bumped off the first page. :p


....or not....seems i can't delete threads here...sorry, used to message boards where the people can just delete their own threads or at least lock them.

Meh, it's alright. Stackny isn't around anymore so most debate's that were lopsided when he was here won't even be debates anymore. Just alot of us agreeing with eachother. Haha just kidding. Anyway the usual answer to your question about why they don't have the burden of proof is simple and any preacher/man of the cloth will tell you the same thing. Almost all religions are based on faith. That's the long and short of it. Faith is a big word to them and they stick by it. It's fine with me. I'm sure if all catholics up and decided to question the Pope about proof the Vatican would have a huge problem but they never will.

Originally Posted by: magicninjaMeh, it's alright. Stackny isn't around anymore so most debate's that were lopsided when he was here won't even be debates anymore. Just alot of us agreeing with eachother. Haha just kidding. Anyway the usual answer to your question about why they don't have the burden of proof is simple and any preacher/man of the cloth will tell you the same thing. Almost all religions are based on faith. That's the long and short of it. Faith is a big word to them and they stick by it. It's fine with me. I'm sure if all catholics up and decided to question the Pope about proof the Vatican would have a huge problem but they never will.

meh is right. i dunno, i don't see faith being cracked up for what it's built up to be....it seems to be more trouble than good (note: good deeds don't need faith...killing in the name of whatever god does).


*shrugs* i know it's just me and i'm in the minority...i just wish others could see it from my point of view.

Blessed are those who have not seen, but believe...
It is in human nature to believe in something. I mean, if you do not have faith, what do you have? Of course, there are those of you who would disagree, but religion is almost the foundation of our culture... I mean, the universe, the life as we know it couldn"t very well became of nothing, right?
At least I stand for that opinion... Maybe religious books, of any religion, are not totally correct. Agreed. There are things that don"t make much sense. I even posted a question closely related to the topic recently. But that does not mean I don"t believe or believe less. It was just a question. But if we doubted every word, where would that lead to? A reason why church was so strongly against Da Vinci code...
People need faith... That is my opinion. I hope i didn"t offended anyone, just posting my opinion.

Magic is on the button - it's about faith.

I guess the other main factor is that religion has been established for far longer than science has had to 'fight' it (poor choice of words, couldn't think of a better one).

The burden of proof therefore lies with science as the theological argument is the one to beat. Blind faith doesn't work for me, I need to see things or their effects before I'll believe.

As for the killing - people are intolerant but don't like to either think or admit they are. Accordingly, they'll use any excuse. Religion is a good one because of the faith angle - you can't very well dispute it if a man says God has told him to wage holy war on whoever. We can laugh at him, maybe even think he's crazy, but cannot prove God didn't speak to him.

Bundy blamed violent porn as I recall - it's all ass gravy.

Religion is the opium of the people.... as some beardy guy said (paraphrased)

I recently just started reading into the bible because I needed to find out for myself what it is that I beleive..

I too was beleiving that Evolution was based on Science, well its what they taught me in school. But Evolution is just a theory. I'm not sure if it was just my school, but I was led to beleive that this was actually proven, when in fact it was not. Just Theories..

Evolution in my opinion is a religion.. Because you have to have some sort of faith that the world began that way in order to beleive it.

I recently saw some seminars by Dr. Kent Hovind.. Although this guy can be a bit hard to take, he made some very valid points and discoveries with regards to creation. It definately opened my eyes to the "possibilities". I'm still digging further into it for myself. Dr. Kent Hovind

But regardless of what you beleive.. I think faith has to be involved.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeI recently just started reading into the bible because I needed to find out for myself what it is that I beleive..

I too was beleiving that Evolution was based on Science, well its what they taught me in school. But Evolution is just a theory. I'm not sure if it was just my school, but I was led to beleive that this was actually proven, when in fact it was not. Just Theories..

i am sorry i just dont buy that. evolution may not be proven 100 percent but nothin ever is. just because we say gravity makes things fall doesnt mean that if i drop an apple it will definitly fall, i can be 99.9999999% sure it will but there is always a chance. so what are we to do, not trust that apples are gonna fall, no that would be stupid, cos then we would have to believe in nothing. so it is with evolution, there is not definitive proof, but there are tones of cases were there is an environment, some creatures change, eg become bigger or smaller over generations whilst other creature cant adapt and die. it happens all the time. when we went and domesticated wolves we were drivin evolution harder, forccing only wolves with atriburtes lthat we wanted to breed and create offspring. we made them evolve but to our own specifications not to those of a 'natural environment'.

and also as the man said there is proof that suggests evolution exists and no proof in creationism that isnt directly imagined buy man. saying its in the ible in my opinion is rubbish cos then u are sayin some man who knew nothing of science somhow new what happened many years before.

the reason people want to believe in faith is because there is no reason to exist if we do not belieeve in god. cos i we say killing people is bad because god says so, there is some sort of predefined justification. if we say killing people is bad beacuse i think it is bad, it just doesnt stand up because someone else could also validly say killing is good because i think it is. and if we say it is what the majority believes then the romans would be justified in keeping slaves and making them fight to the death in the colesium and the nazis would be justified in the holocaust.

so where does this leave me, in a horrible situation, i cant believe in god cos i think the evidence doesnt stack up being as there is no evidence for it and tonnes against. but if i dont belive in a god then there is no purpose in life no reason to live, no reason to be knig and generous to people. so my method try to forget about this detail and try to make myself think that the majority creates the morality. even though i know irt doesnt.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_Renee Evolution in my opinion is a religion.. Because you have to have some sort of faith that the world began that way in order to beleive it.

I guess - sadly none of us were around 4.5 billion years ago to confirm or deny. If we then see everything as a theory, what makes the scientific one more valid is that some attempt is made to substantiate it, and it can be supported although perhaps not proven. I think anything we 'proved' would be wrong in the fullness of time anyway - the people living in a time when the belief was the world was flat probably didn't think anymore about it. There alot for us to learn. One day we'll find out that to travel at the speed of light, all you have to do is put your pants on your head.... and then wonder how we didn't figure it out years ago.

Religion was a way to explain the inexplicable before science came along. Religion is entirely based on faith.

I read the bible a while ago, and I didn't find anything there for me. I won't talk about that as I don't want to offend. The only 'God' angle I still mull over is that lots the scientific bits I've picked up talk about what a ridiculous number of ridiculously unlikely events would have had to transpire in a ridiculously unlikely order to get us to where we are. With a probability of 0.000000000001% or whatever, maybe we're not a cosmic accident, but whether a higher power was involved I've no idea.

The experiments at CERN shortly may prove or disprove the existence of God... or suck us all into a black hole...

You know something... I struggled with that for many years. I fought religion and faith.. Those comments you made.. I could see me making them..

And you guys have just made me realize something.. I have faith. I didn't think I did.. But i do. I guess maybe I always did.

Thank you!!

because religion is not scientific and requires no proof to justify its belief structure. It is a system of beliefs. (proof subverting faith and all that)

On the other hand the theory of evolution is not based on beliefs it is based on evidence and so is subject to a whole new set of rules.

They are two totally different things / arguments.

Is one system more valid than the other...

well that is up to you !

I'm with the Doc, and I dont think that religion and science should be mutually exclusive.

I dont think that science is a belief at all, as everything studied in science is simply a model, it is not believed, not even trusted, and challenges to theories are welcome and even encouraged.

I personally dont see how any one, could completely discount the possibilty of evolution, I think the observations and discoveries noted, that point in the direction of evolution are too convincing to be ignored completely...as such, I dont think creationalism is a valid alternative...but if you do,thats cool by me...neither of us can prove the other wrong...andlike I said science is not a believe, so I'm not gonna fight for it.

I guess ultimately its all up to you, but I do think that believe held too strongly, becomes dangerous...there is always room for improvement and refinement,and even correction.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeYou know something... I struggled with that for many years. I fought religion and faith.. Those comments you made.. I could see me making them..

And you guys have just made me realize something.. I have faith. I didn't think I did.. But i do. I guess maybe I always did.

Thank you!!

And a good thing it is... Never be ashamed of it. I, up to this day, when sitting at the table for some more official meal, cross myself and say grace... For me, at least. And I am known to be crazy as a bucket... Did some pretty wild things... hey, I am a guitarist... ;)
Hold on to your faith Tonja. it is not a bad thing. :)

Funny this thread should come up now, I had a religious based dream just the other night that has been kind of bugging me ever since.

Basically, I was in the army (which is odd in itself), and I was watching this conflict unfold from above. On one side there were a bunch of Muslims, and on the other side were a bunch of Catholic priests and the Pope. A big fight erupted, so I jumped down to try and stop people from getting hurt. One of the Muslim men pulled out a machete and was about to bring it down on the Pope's head, so I shot him in the back. As soon as I did this, all the other Muslims ran away and the Catholics began cheering and celebrating. Then the Pope lifted a girl off the ground by her hair and gave a speech about how she was a witch and needed to be beheaded. I thought to myself, "Son of a b**ch, I can't believe I saved that a**hole!" and shot him in the head.


I think a religion is just a set of beliefs someone has. My religion, for example, does not really have a name, as it is just fragments of different religions and zany theories I happen to believe in. I have no problem with religion, since everyone has beliefs. What I do have a problem with is organized religions, and people who believe in them to the point where they are willing to do crazy things just to defend their religion of choice. For example, I simply cannot understand how someone can say "I am a Christian because I was raised that way" and leave it at that. To me, that phrase implies you believe everything the Bible says, and I just don't understand how someone can unquestioningly believe EVERY SINGLE WORD of any text.

I think more people should believe in what they feel is right, rather than just stick to the religion they were raised on. If they research other theories or ideas and wind up coming back to their original faith, fair enough, but at least investigate a little bit. Give other faiths a chance. There's absolutely no need to pigeon-hole yourself into one set of beliefs and look down upon all others.

Originally Posted by: earthman buck
I think more people should believe in what they feel is right, rather than just stick to the religion they were raised on. If they research other theories or ideas and wind up coming back to their original faith, fair enough, but at least investigate a little bit. Give other faiths a chance. There's absolutely no need to pigeon-hole yourself into one set of beliefs and look down upon all others.

For me, Earthman's hit it right on the head. At risk of sounding like a raving preacher-man here, I believe that everybody - EVERYBODY, all human beings, whether they know/believe it or not - finds their own path to God, through their own set of beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, God appears to everyone in different ways; a religion, organised or otherwise, is simply there to guide individuals on their path to God. I, for example, am a Catholic; that is the religion I have chosen to help me find God, and it's no more or less valid as a means of doing so than any other. Religion is a collective thing, but it is also deeply individual, if that makes any sense. I guess the answer to your question is that everybody has their own individual standard of proof as far as faith is concerned: it depends on the path to eternal inner peace that individuals choose, be that Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Jainism, Wicca, Agnosticism, Humanism, or even an atheist set of values - whatever, it's different for everybody, I suppose.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

A friend of mine told me that a 'spiritual area', had been discovered in the brain, supposed to have evolved to aid our survival - don't really know if this is true ?

Originally Posted by: earthman buck
For example, I simply cannot understand how someone can say "I am a Christian because I was raised that way" and leave it at that. To me, that phrase implies you believe everything the Bible says, and I just don't understand how someone can unquestioningly believe EVERY SINGLE WORD of any text.

Well...I do believe every word of it, personally. You have to understand that in the Bible, God promises that it's all true. So if you don't believe everything in it...you believe God has broken a promise...the Bible also says that God will never break a promise.

I was raised Christian, and to be honest my family is miles away from being perfect Christians, but when I people say 'I was raised Christian', i mean that i grew up in a Christian family, and was exposed to the teachings and they all made sense to me.

You might call this brainwashing, but it's not like anyone's controlling our lives or anything. It is a free lifestyle, that has proved to be nothing but beneficial and happiness for me.

There are so many questions i don't know the answers to, but they never cause me to doubt my faith, because as humans, how could we possibly understand the mind of an omnipotent being?

I read this on a very old gravestone:

it's not my Acts of Moses law
That I recieved this Heaven
But through the Blood of Jesus Christ
My sins will be forgiven

Interesting topic and I can see a certain validity to every post here.

Myself, I am a Christian and like many others, I was raised that way. But as an adult, I realized that I was not about to have someone dictate my religious or non-religious views. I would find out for myself. So that I did. I read as much as I could handle regarding various theologies and scientific thoughts about the origin of man and the purpose and/or meaning of life.

The one thought that kept coming around was this; if there is no God, if Christ did not walk among us and die for us, then there is no meaning. None. If man just 'happened' to appear on earth through some astronomical percentage play and there was no life before and no life after then why are we here? What's the point? Why do we have laws? Why do we love? Why do we hate? Why do we create? If there is no God then wouldn't the end all be anarchy? Why wouldn't we kill any and all who oppose us (on a personal level?) You know, if someone cuts you off in traffic, why not jump out of your car and go after him with a ball bat?

We don't, not because we're basically good creatures - we don't because of fear. Either fear of our fellow man or fear of the law. Mankind on its' own is a horrible thought. Mankind under the eye of God provides hope.

And no, I cannot explain why horrible things happen in the world. And no, I won't throw out the platitude that 'God works in mysterious ways.' We're talking about man trying to understand the thoughts and direction of THE ONE. The one who controls all. The one who created us. Attempts to understand God is like a garden slug trying to understand a nuclear reactor. Just because he can't doesn't nullify the existence of the reactor.

I've always felt that it's a combination of the two prevailing theories. Evolution and Creation. Who's to say that God didn't set the thing in motion? There are verses in the bible that refer to a millenium being like a day to God. When man wrote that God created the Earth in seven days, can we say that God's day and man's day are measured the same? How does a strict Creationist explain fossils and carbon dating? Sure, we can see examples of adaptation in nature (and in man if you look). Call me crazy but I think that God may look upon the earth and man as something like a terrarium that he set up and kinda kicked into motion.

As an aside, Karl Marx is the one who wrote "Religion ... is the opium of the people" in Critique of the Hegelian Philosophy of Right in 1841.

It was not a condemnation of religion as many people think. Look it up on line and give it a quick read. Marx was an interesting guy. Crazy as a loon at times but right on track in other things...

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by: hunter60
And no, I cannot explain why horrible things happen in the world. And no, I won't throw out the platitude that 'God works in mysterious ways.' We're talking about man trying to understand the thoughts and direction of THE ONE. The one who controls all. The one who created us. Attempts to understand God is like a garden slug trying to understand a nuclear reactor. Just because he can't doesn't nullify the existence of the reactor.

Exactly what i was getting at bud! We think were brilliant making all these 'so why would God' or 'how could God possibly' questions, all the while not realizing that He has a mind to create everything . How could we possibly understand what he's thinking?

Looking at it from the perspective of "if there's no God, then there's no reason for life...so there has to be a God" is awfully egotistical to me, imho. Why does there necessarily have to be a reason for life? For instance, how much of the rest of the universe is "dead"? So what's the point of that? And one day our own star will die and Earth will be consumed. So even though we might've had a good run, still, what's the point then?

Now, all that being said, I do however lean towards that there does seem to be some underlying force that makes life "want" to create and live. Something that makes all our assigned "laws" of chemistry, physics, biology, etc come together and make something greater than the sum of it's parts. And once created, there's obviously an inner drive in all creatures to continue to live, and make more. Yet I also don't look at like it's a great caring Mother Nature. No, Nature as a whole is apathetic, and can and will wipe out any existence by any number of means.
So, while I might believe in what is typically termed the soul, I have no faith in the typical God of religions, and especially in the books of those religions, which I find ample evidence of borrowing fables and lessons from others (the most obvious perhaps being the Great Flood). Not to say there isn't wisdom to be gained from such writings, but I won't ever accept them as the unchallengable truth, just because it says so.