touchy topic....just wondering


jiujitsu_jesus
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jiujitsu_jesus
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09/23/2006 6:04 pm
Originally Posted by: LordathestringsCould a Muslim please explain to me how rioting, burning churches, and killing a nun serve to repudiate the claim that Islam fosters violence?


I'm not a Muslim, but I think I can explain it... the Qur'an unconditionally condemns violence in some parts, but in others, makes reference to a "holy war" and to "beating" your spouse. Dr. Leila Ahmed, however, having interpreted the Qur'an in the linguistic and socio-historical context OF THE TIME that it was written (basically, interpreting it as a text, not just taking it at face value ;)), has ascertained that these phrases do not literally refer to a war or to violence against your spouse, but to an inner spiritual struggle and to taking legal action against your spouse respectively. However, she continues, these phrases have been misinterpreted by patriarchal and/or warlike societies, and taken at face value; the result is the kind of Islam that you see on the front page or on the evening news. So yeah - Islam does in fact repudiate violence, but you certainly wouldn't know it from the media's perspective.

Hope some of that made sense. It's early. :o
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Superhuman
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Superhuman
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09/23/2006 6:59 pm
Excuse the slight tangent but this is one of the few topics that drives me crazy. Don't have time to type at the mo but Creation Scinece etc, is NOT science it is unfounded voodoo. Seemingly intelligent people who refuse to listen to reason or accept the facts over what was written in a book some odd thousand years ago... a book which we all know as fact was rewritten and changed many times during the dark ages to satisfy the powers of the vatican and religious states as a means of controlling the masses.

If you look at most religions you will see that have evolved into vehicles of control over the genral masses - seriously just look at how Bush got himself elected (awaiting red hot flames!). In the absence of education and or knowledge it is and has always been in mans nature to turn toward the most unlikely explaination eg an all powerful spirit that actually cares whether you work on Sunday or an all powerful spirit that created everyone so that the ones who believe in him can kill those who do not as they spread the faith 'by the sword'...

Science fact vs science fiction is the way I look at. Hope I didnt offend anyone but thats been on my mind for a long time !
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ericthecableguy
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09/23/2006 8:20 pm
Originally Posted by: Superhuman
In the absence of education and or knowledge it is and has always been in mans nature to turn toward the most unlikely explaination eg an all powerful spirit that actually cares whether you work on Sunday or an all powerful spirit that created everyone so that the ones who believe in him can kill those who do not as they spread the faith 'by the sword'...


Sorry if I'm misinterpreting, but when has GOd ever told Christians to kill non-christians. There's a little to much hearsay in that paragraph IMO.
For life is quite absurd and death's the final word, You must always face the curtain with a bow
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.

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magicninja
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09/23/2006 8:27 pm
Originally Posted by: ericthecableguySorry if I'm misinterpreting, but when has GOd ever told Christians to kill non-christians. There's a little to much hearsay in that paragraph IMO.

If I'm not mistaken during the Crusades the Pope "absolved" all the particiants for sins they may commit during the war. Now maybe God didn't order the killing of thousands but it seems he certainly condoned it.
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ericthecableguy
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09/23/2006 8:30 pm
Originally Posted by: magicninjaNow maybe God didn't order the killing of thousands but it seems he certainly condoned it.


Exactly what I meant. How do you figure he could have condoned it when he orders people not to kill eachother?
For life is quite absurd and death's the final word, You must always face the curtain with a bow
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.

METOOB
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Superhuman
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09/23/2006 8:35 pm
Originally Posted by: ericthecableguySorry if I'm misinterpreting, but when has GOd ever told Christians to kill non-christians. There's a little to much hearsay in that paragraph IMO.

I was boradly painting all religions with the same brush, I suppose that particular point is applicaple to Islam (or at least as interpreated by extremists)
# 6
magicninja
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09/23/2006 8:35 pm
Originally Posted by: ericthecableguyExactly what I meant. How do you figure he could have condoned it when he orders people not to kill eachother?

That's exacxtly why I hate organized religion. The hypocrisy is so blatant. Don't kill people but during the Crusades if you have to kill a few women and children i'll make sure God forgives you. Because killing in God's name is ok.
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Superhuman
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09/23/2006 8:42 pm
Originally Posted by: ericthecableguyExactly what I meant. How do you figure he could have condoned it when he orders people not to kill eachother?


Exactly, it's about how those in power through out the ages have twisted the original messages of various religions in order to impose their own will and forward their own nefarious designs over 'the great unwashed'...

The Koran also refers to killing as being evil as does the Bible but the Crusaders and the Islamic fundamentalists seem to have thrown a blind eye over that 99% of the text...

Enough religious debate from me! I'm about to have a few beers and the last thing I want on mind after the 10 pints is politics or religion :D
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Lordathestrings
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09/24/2006 1:09 am
Originally Posted by: Superhuman... I'm about to have a few beers and the last thing I want on mind after the 10 pints is politics or religion :D


Meh, to each his own...

When my parents came t visit me, My mother and I got into a huge debate about politics, and when my father tried to get us to calm down, we both told him to shut up and quit spoiling the fun! :D
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tehplatypus
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09/24/2006 2:01 am
Originally Posted by: R. Shackleferd
I heard an interesting comparison regarding Islam and the current perception of Muslims. During the U.S. Civil War, the Confederate south seceded from the Union, for several reasons (not just the issue of slavery, as is often assumed). So they adopted their own flag, commonly termed the Rebel Flag. Thousands of men fight and die by that flag, and despite the loss of the war, the flag remains a symbol of Southern pride and independence, and is highly regarded throughout. However a relatively small group emerges...the Ku Klux Klan, which I presume needs no description. And they of course continue to use this symbol in their own racial agenda, which includes violence and murder. To be sure, some southerners at the time might've been sympathetic to their cause, but overwhelmingly most disagree with their tactics. But even from those who totally disagree, there is little outcry, out of fear of retribution or harassment, or just pure indifference. So sadly, the Confederate Flag has since become commonly associated as a symbol of racism, violence, and hate.
So unless those who are grouped together with others make a stand from within against using tactics, symbols, or whatever for their own extreme agendas, it's too easy to associate those with the larger group.



what's funny about the stars and bars....if you actually read the confederate constitution...it did more to take away state's rights than to preserve them...now whether that document was to be temporary or permenant....it basically gave a lot of power to the federal government and very little to the states. one area of the confederate constition i really liked though was the part specifically stating that riders on laws was prohibited....we really need to do that now. riders are getting out of control. one law should be one law...not the funding for veterans/tax cut for the upper 1% bill. you know?

sorry to get off base but after doing research...it was a lot about slavery and while the union was hurting what would become the confederacy...the actual constitution the confederacy was founded upon did very little to grant states their rights as claimed by many.

as far as muslims go.


the idiots who do that garbage in the name of islam are about the same number of idiots who protest soldiers' funerals because "god hates fags" as they would so eloquently put it. they're in the minority, some are actually forced into doing it by way of threats on family members or are promised that their family will actually beable to eat. others are just ignorant radical idiots who have been suckered in by a bunch of chicken hawks....wow, sounds like some of the people in our military.
okay...my post is done...goodbye.
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jiujitsu_jesus
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09/24/2006 2:31 am
Originally Posted by: tehplatypus
the idiots who do that garbage in the name of islam are about the same number of idiots who protest soldiers' funerals because "god hates fags" as they would so eloquently put it.


Haha, I remember seeing a comedy show (I forget which one) where some guy actually went to one of those anti-gay protests and started flirting with one of the male protesters! It was absolutely hilarious. :D
"It's all folk music... I ain't never heard no horse sing!"
- Attributed variously to Leadbelly and Louis Armstrong

If at first you don't succeed, you are obviously not Chuck Norris.

l337iZmz r@wk o.K!!!??>
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ericthecableguy
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09/24/2006 2:31 pm
Originally Posted by: Superhuman
Enough religious debate from me! I'm about to have a few beers and the last thing I want on mind after the 10 pints is politics or religion :D


Cheers. Guess I'll pull out too. I can't debate and I don't want to risk having a lower opinion of any of you...these things can get heated. ;)

Signing of...Eric.
For life is quite absurd and death's the final word, You must always face the curtain with a bow
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.

METOOB
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tehplatypus
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09/24/2006 2:43 pm
Originally Posted by: R. ShackleferdIf what's described above is Satanism, what are the people who make sacrifices around pentagrams and truly deify Satan? And no, that's not just totally made up stuff for the movies.



people who deify satan are just idiotic. they're basically saying "the christians are right but i want to go the other way."

but sometimes religions that don't even deal with the judeo-christian-muslim god get associated with satanic ritual simply because it involves mysticism and animal sacrifice. it's pretty rediculous how superstitious and easily scared by the unknown some christians can be.
okay...my post is done...goodbye.
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jiujitsu_jesus
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09/24/2006 3:52 pm
Originally Posted by: tehplatypuspeople who deify satan are just idiotic. they're basically saying "the christians are right but i want to go the other way."

but sometimes religions that don't even deal with the judeo-christian-muslim god get associated with satanic ritual simply because it involves mysticism and animal sacrifice. it's pretty rediculous how superstitious and easily scared by the unknown some christians can be.


Because I agree with that: do you is it then unethical for me to listen to anti-Christian death metal? I mean, I love Morbid Angel and Cynic; I can't understand what they're trying to sing/scream anyway, so I don't notice the lyrics.
"It's all folk music... I ain't never heard no horse sing!"
- Attributed variously to Leadbelly and Louis Armstrong

If at first you don't succeed, you are obviously not Chuck Norris.

l337iZmz r@wk o.K!!!??>
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Superhuman
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09/24/2006 4:21 pm
Originally Posted by: jiujitsu_jesusBecause I agree with that: do you is it then unethical for me to listen to anti-Christian death metal? I mean, I love Morbid Angel and Cynic; I can't understand what they're trying to sing/scream anyway, so I don't notice the lyrics.


Just a quick FYI, check out the Cynic lyrics, no satanic references! Just clean deep thinking :)
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tehplatypus
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09/24/2006 4:49 pm
Originally Posted by: jiujitsu_jesusBecause I agree with that: do you is it then unethical for me to listen to anti-Christian death metal? I mean, I love Morbid Angel and Cynic; I can't understand what they're trying to sing/scream anyway, so I don't notice the lyrics.



why would it be? god gave you free will, right? it's not like you're mimicing the lyrics or anything.

music isn't evil. some thoughts are...but people have to be wary of thoughts that are evil and thoughts that just provoking one to think and reconsider their own stances.
okay...my post is done...goodbye.
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Grambo
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09/24/2006 8:41 pm
Originally Posted by: z0s0_jpwere all worm food....deal with it.....thus religion is born :D


Apparently we're buried six foot down to avoid worms - thankfully.
if you always take the lazy route
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Grambo
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09/24/2006 9:03 pm
Death......best avoided
if you always take the lazy route
The Devil knows your every move ![COLOR=RoyalBlue]
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jiujitsu_jesus
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09/24/2006 9:03 pm
Originally Posted by: SuperhumanJust a quick FYI, check out the Cynic lyrics, no satanic references! Just clean deep thinking :)


Cool! Now if we add them to Saviour Machine and As I Lay Dying, and you have three metal bands who wouldn't be interested in burning down all the churches in Europe! :D
"It's all folk music... I ain't never heard no horse sing!"
- Attributed variously to Leadbelly and Louis Armstrong

If at first you don't succeed, you are obviously not Chuck Norris.

l337iZmz r@wk o.K!!!??>
# 19
earthman buck
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earthman buck
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09/24/2006 10:31 pm
Originally Posted by: jiujitsu_jesusCool! Now if we add them to Saviour Machine and As I Lay Dying, and you have three metal bands who wouldn't be interested in burning down all the churches in Europe! :D

I have two semi-related things to say about that.

1) This is one of the most interesting band bios I have ever read.
2) At the moment I'm reading this, you have 1,666 posts. Weird.
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