touchy topic....just wondering

Originally Posted by: ericthecableguyhow could we possibly understand the mind of an omnipotent being?

this is assuming there is a god. and actually a lot of things are within comprehension and more and more things get within our grasp as technology gets better and as education gets better and generally as we learn more about ourselves and the world and universe around us.

which brings us back to burden of proof.


you're welcome to believe what you want. but at the end of the day, burden of proof rests on those trying to proove something is there. you don't HAVE to proove anything....just if you're not going to...stay out of my government and science classes.

repeating for emphasis so that this is made clear that i'm not encroaching on your choices(or at least trying..): you're more than welcome and free to believe what you want and what you feel is right.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/


this comes off to me as child abuse....

Ok, since we are debating here... Again, no offense to anyone. I respect everyone"s opinion and a point of view. It is a free world. Or most of it is, at least. :( Anyhow, just a question here. I, as you have probably seen so far, believe in God an am religious. A catholic, I am. So, believing in God, I also believe in devil. And, by bible, Lucifer is but a little weaker than God. So, in a way, he is also well, not omnipotent, but close. Well, the question is: If a Lucifer is also omnipotent being, is sotonism, as such a religion??
I mean, to me it is wrong, but then, thy shall not judge. Everyone has a right to his/hers opinion... So, what do you guys/girls think?

were all worm food....deal with it.....thus religion is born :D

Originally Posted by: KrunekOk, since we are debating here... Again, no offense to anyone. I respect everyone"s opinion and a point of view. It is a free world. Or most of it is, at least. :( Anyhow, just a question here. I, as you have probably seen so far, believe in God an am religious. A catholic, I am. So, believing in God, I also believe in devil. And, by bible, Lucifer is but a little weaker than God. So, in a way, he is also well, not omnipotent, but close. Well, the question is: If a Lucifer is also omnipotent being, is sotonism, as such a religion??
I mean, to me it is wrong, but then, thy shall not judge. Everyone has a right to his/hers opinion... So, what do you guys/girls think?

Interesting point... personally, I always thought (but am probably dead wrong) that Satan was more a symbol of the absence of God, rather than another omnipotent being; so the worship of the absence of God doesn't make much sense to me. But hey, if you get spiritual fulfillment out of Satanism, who am I to judge it? If it does that for people, it's valid as a religion. Judge not, indeed.

And hunter - great post. Rep is forthcoming.

I think that satanism is mostly just an excuse for people to do whatever they want and be jerks. The main appeal of satanism is that it promotes all the things that christianity says you shouldn't do, like casual sex, violence, pretty much do anything that you want and don't worry about a thing. Of course, it is only logical for satanism to promote sin, I mean, isn't that kind of how he's supposed to get your soul? And then, a lot of people just do it to be cool. The only thing seems pretty stupid and childish to me. I guess you could call it a religion, but it seems like more the abscense of one.

im do not thin god exists as a being or a spiritual force or anything and that god is individual to everyone and basicly covers good or bad.
In science i dont think it will be ever possible that a god does not not exist because there will allways be someone that will say god did that or god mae that
personally i cant comprehend how god could make everything the closest i can imagine is starting a chain of event that could lead to how things are today.
dunno if that makes sense but i guess i support science mostly

Originally Posted by: hunter60If man just 'happened' to appear on earth through some astronomical percentage play and there was no life before and no life after then why are we here? What's the point? Why do we have laws? Why do we love? Why do we hate? Why do we create?[/QUOTE]
If we appeared as living creatures in the random process you have described, then there is no meaning to our existence. It was luck (or maybe a lack thereof), simple as that.

[QUOTE=acapella]I think that satanism is mostly just an excuse for people to do whatever they want and be jerks. The main appeal of satanism is that it promotes all the things that christianity says you shouldn't do, like casual sex, violence, pretty much do anything that you want and don't worry about a thing. Of course, it is only logical for satanism to promote sin, I mean, isn't that kind of how he's supposed to get your soul? And then, a lot of people just do it to be cool. The only thing seems pretty stupid and childish to me. I guess you could call it a religion, but it seems like more the abscense of one.

I don't think that's quite what Satanism is, but I may be wrong. From what I've read on Wikipedia about Satanism, I think it basically works on the idea that there is no God, there is only yourself, and therefore you are your own personal God. A main principle of Satanism is doing what makes you feel good, as it appeases your 'personal God.' For some people, that could be "being a jerk," as you put it, but not all.

Here's the rundown on satanism:

Found by Anton LaVey in 1966.

Originally Posted by: wikipediaThe Nine Satanic Statements
1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years

It pretty much does sound at lot to me like an excuse to be a jerk.
Basically not giving a hoot about other people and giving up on people you don't think deserve love.

Ok guys I'm gonna lay it out for you.

I do not believe in any God that man has created. I think the God's and religion man has created came out of necessity for order. That's fine and it still applies today and quite frankly we could use more people who live thier life by the Bible. I respect people who live by the teachings of the Bible. The hardline people who take the Bible as pure truth however I just don't get. I hear alot of you posting about if there is no God what is the meaning of life? Well it's simple and if you have kids someday you will know the purpose of life. Continuation of the species. Now, being a species of moderate intelligence we should as a civilization be able to mold our path. Right now we are in turmoil. Everybody wants something different. I personally would enjoy a world government geared toward feeding everyone and making sure everyone is helping towards a common goal. I think that common goal should be space travel to other planets. If we stay here and destroy ourselves then there was no point our civilization. It kinda takes the wind out of the sails of religious text when not one mentions traveling to space. Does God expect us just to stay here? I would think not. Our destiny is our own. Collectively as a people if we don't work together in common goals as human beings we are all doomed. Whether it be trying to all work together to eradicate hunger or Aids or whatever else. Money is always a problem it seems. What no one seems to understand is that money is an illusion. If it were not for money and religion I think the sky would be the limit for our race. We are too greedy in that we only care about what is best for our country, our town, our family. We don't care what is best for the human race as a whole. This my friends will be our downfall. The rich don't want a change. The poor really don't have a say in anything.The middle class well we're just living and that seems to be ok with everyone. I'm embarrassed for the people of Earth. We go around all self important when we don't realize one way or another nothing we do will matter. The only things that will matter is either when we get to the point where we nuke ourselves back to the stoneage or a leader arises that can talk some sense into the power hungry idiots who keep us working to half our potential. That will be the turning point in our evolution. Until then we can all sit around and talk about how pointless life seems.

The amusing thing about satanism is nobody who sincerely believes their principles and philosophy would ever pay the $200 for a red card.

Originally Posted by: ericthecableguyHere's the rundown on satanism:

Found by Anton LaVey in 1966.


It pretty much does sound at lot to me like an excuse to be a jerk.
Basically not giving a hoot about other people and giving up on people you don't think deserve love.

Apologies to any Satanists on the board, but I laughed my head off at that! Especially the "psychic vampires" bit... :D

Fundamental Individualism

Satanism is often mistaken as being a religion that encourages cruelty and irresponsible behaviour, but LaVey's brand is very different. Central is the idea inherited from Nietzsche that an individual must enforce his own meaning on life and rise above the perceived conformity of the masses. The Satanist is seen as equivalent to Nietzsche's Übermensch; LaVey claimed "Satanists are born, not made" and that "[Satanists] have a disease called independence that needs to be recognised just like alcoholism." There is a libertarian element here; diversity is encouraged, everyone is expected to discover their own sexuality, chart their own personality, and decide their own ambitions in life. In this stress on individuality, Satanism is considered a "Left-Hand Path" religion.


Satanism and Self-Transformation

Adherents to "life-denying" religions are often regarded as self-abnegating in their devotion to their own servility. LaVey's Satanic creed viewed religion as promoting an impersonal relationship with what the churches referred to as "God". Satanism was presented as an opportunity to self-identify with one's own concept of God. Great attention was paid to details gleaned from Noir films like White Heat and The Big Sleep in creating one's ideal Self from deliberately invoked forms.


The Satanic Golden Rule

Lex talionis, the Law of Retaliation (lex/legis f. nom, "law" and talio/talionis f. gen, "retaliation, returning like unto like") informed much of LaVey's Satanic formulation. "Do unto others as they do unto you" supplanted the Christian directive to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", so that you are only to give compassion and sympathy to those who deserve it. It is a reactive rule, compared with the Christian proactive rule; further it is a rule that most Satanists try to live by. By the rule, love, compassion, and sympathy are not to be wasted upon ingrates; these are to be given only to those who deserve them. LaVey felt that intelligent and strong people spent too much time caring for psychic vampires — weak individuals who always demanded attention and care, yet would never give any back. He taught that Satanists should strive to remove themselves as much as possible from such people in order to live in accordance to their instincts and individual wills.

God in Satanism

The Satanist does not believe in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic idea of God; the function of God is performed and satisfied by the Satanist him/herself. That is, the needs of worship, ritual, and religious/spiritual focus are directed, effectively, inwards towards the Satanist, as opposed to outwards, towards God.

LaVey proposes instead that as all gods are creations of man, worship of an external deity is worship of its creator by proxy. He suggests, then, that the rational Satanist should instead internalize his god, and therefore worship himself; hence the Satanic maxim, "I am my own god."

It follows that Satanism shuns the idea of belief in all other deities as well, including, to the surprise of many, Satan. Satan is viewed as a literary archetype, along the lines of John Milton's epic hero. This archetype is viewed not as a negative figure, but as a positive image of pride and mastery in opposition to servitude, faith, and humility.

Belief in any such externalized deities is generally considered grounds for excluding someone as a Satanist, and devil worship in particular is considered nothing more than a misguided inversion of Christianity.

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take out the goth trash and i pretty much agree with the ideas put forward by satanism. still not too sure about the law of retaliation, though...but i'm a little too compassionate to fully embrace something like that. except i'm agnostic so i'm open to the idea that there could possibly be a god but no such proof has been given yet.

The bits on satanism posted above hold some truth for me. The retaliation thing is something that I have in my life. Like most others I've been brought up with the whole 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you....' thing, but eventually got sick of the fact that although I can treat everyone else appropriately, not everyone else treats me properly.

In this instance, I fall back to the logical 'do unto others as they have done unto you' thinking as above. It doesn't always work, but my personal 'religion' is based on fairness - it's just that fairness is subjective.

I don't believe in a God. I think religion is a crutch for those who follow it, and I think faith is a way to mask the fact that none of it stands up to the usual level of human scrutiny. I think the modern term for most of my 'beliefs' is humanism, although to be honest I get lost in it all. I know I'm agnostic as opposed to an actual atheist - In my opinion it's as redundant to deny the existence entirely of something we have not proven either way as it is to believe. When God turns up at my house and asks for a beer, he's more than welcome..... Until then I'll take his existence with a pinch of salt.

Yeah, a lot of that Satanism stuff seems pretty sensible to me. I guess the best way to sum up my beliefs is this:

Do what you want, just don't hurt anyone.

If what's described above is Satanism, what are the people who make sacrifices around pentagrams and truly deify Satan? And no, that's not just totally made up stuff for the movies.

Could a Muslim please explain to me how rioting, burning churches, and killing a nun serve to repudiate the claim that Islam fosters violence?

Can anyone say cartoon violence !!

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsCould a Muslim please explain to me how rioting, burning churches, and killing a nun serve to repudiate the claim that Islam fosters violence?

I note the irony, and can't explain it either (And I don't meet the criteria above!)

None of the Muslims I know are in any way represented by the 'Muslim Community' portrayed in the media. With my Muslim friends, it would be a bit like this:

Me: "Did you hear what the Pope said about Islam / Mohammed?"
Mate: (Either) "No, but who cares? He can have an opinion" or "Yeah.... meh.... who cares"

I wonder how hard a news crew has to try to find the now standard "angry Mulim rent-a-mob"?

As has doubtless been posted before and will again, people looking for trouble will always find it and put a banner around it. It is a shame that people are that stupid though.... as you say, no reaction at all would have done a better job of proving the Pope wrong.

Also, the guy who shouted down the Home Secretary for being 'Anti-Islamic' and then accused the UK / police with state terrorism and curtailing freedoms this week probably would have got less media coverage had he not been dragged out mid-rant by the police...

It was funny though.... :D

It must be an over-simplification, although I fail to see why.... people just need to calm the **** down....

I heard an interesting comparison regarding Islam and the current perception of Muslims. During the U.S. Civil War, the Confederate south seceded from the Union, for several reasons (not just the issue of slavery, as is often assumed). So they adopted their own flag, commonly termed the Rebel Flag. Thousands of men fight and die by that flag, and despite the loss of the war, the flag remains a symbol of Southern pride and independence, and is highly regarded throughout. However a relatively small group emerges...the Ku Klux Klan, which I presume needs no description. And they of course continue to use this symbol in their own racial agenda, which includes violence and murder. To be sure, some southerners at the time might've been sympathetic to their cause, but overwhelmingly most disagree with their tactics. But even from those who totally disagree, there is little outcry, out of fear of retribution or harassment, or just pure indifference. So sadly, the Confederate Flag has since become commonly associated as a symbol of racism, violence, and hate.
So unless those who are grouped together with others make a stand from within against using tactics, symbols, or whatever for their own extreme agendas, it's too easy to associate those with the larger group.