Merry christmas

I only read half of the thread, but here s my thought on the subject:

Like a lot of people, I go back and fourth wit beleiving and not beleving, and right now I'm a beleiver. I don't go to church (forced when I was little, no plans to ever go again,) I don't go to any gatherings or get involved. The only thing I do is beleive that there is a higher power and I guess occasionally ask for a little help (as in dear god help me get this truck out before cops come.) I don't follow the commandments nor any of the deadly sins or whatever you call them. I just do what I find morally right, the morals that I learned from my parents and from personal experience over the years. Pretty much, I sleep good at night because I follow my own rules. Sure I curse a lot and do stupid ****, but everyone sees me as a great person and I always like keeping everyone happy when they're around me.

Religion is powerful, but it works in both directions, good and bad(make friends, start wars.)

If someone says Merry Chirstmass and you don't celebrate it and become offended, get a life, or better yet, end it. People like are not wanted in the world and are the reason why theres constant conflicts going on, big and small.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeOk this is from the Old Testament... The Old Testament is followed by the Jews... it prophecises the coming of Christ, and these laws are followed by the Jews... Christianity is the New Testament which is a new covenant with God because the Jews rejected Jesus (the Messiah). Christians do not follow those old laws... the Old Testament is included with the New Testament as a testimony that the two volumes are tied together. So by picking apart the Old Testament you really are picking apart Judaism not Christianity.[/QUOTE]
First of all, I doubt very highly ANY branch of Judaism follows the law I quoted. But since I don't know, I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.

But don't make the mistake of thinking there isn't wacky stuff in the New Testament.

Originally Posted by: King James Bible, Matthew 21:18-19
Now in the morning as he returned into the city, [Jesus] hungered. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.[/QUOTE]
So...Jesus was hungry, and a tree he came across wouldn't feed him, so he killed it.

Hmm.

[QUOTE=looneytunes]So, how do you do determine what is right and wrong?

Basically, out of respect for one another. Don't do anything that is going to hurt anyone, whether emotionally or physically. That's really what Jesus is saying, I think, once you get down to it. BE NICE.

I hope I don't sound like a total prick, I'm not trying to. I really don't care what others believe in; I know that for the most part, followers of ANY religion are very sensible people. It's the few wackjobs that take things WAAAAY to literally that put a sour taste for religion in my mouth. Like gay marriage, for example. You have these Christian right-wingers claiming homosexuality is a sin because it's mentioned in passing in the Bible (in the Old Testament, might I add). As a result, they outlaw same-sex couples getting married...despite the fact that "Love thy neighbour" and "Do unto others" and other such (SENSIBLE) messages are hit home CONSTANTLY throughout the course of the Bible. It's outrageous. Ask any Christian preacher how literally the Bible is to be taken...I think most would agree it's just a series of metaphors describing ways we can all get along.

[QUOTE=elklandercc]If someone says Merry Chirstmass and you don't celebrate it and become offended, get a life, or better yet, end it. People like are not wanted in the world and are the reason why theres constant conflicts going on, big and small.

Yes and yes. Isn't that how this whole debate started? :P I don't understand why non-Christians get offended when Christians wish them a Merry Christmas. If a Jew wished me a Happy Hannukah, I would accept it. The focus is on the HAPPY, for frick's sake. They are wishing you well! Chill the f*** out.

Have a good evening, everyone. I am exhausted.

this is a strange conversation that branched off of an innocent saying of merry christmas

I don't get the whole homosexuality thing either, and I've been exhausted completely trying to find more information on the matter.... Sin is sin in the bible there aren't any levels of sin in the Bible that makes one sin more acceptable to God than another - well nothing that I have found yet so far...

So whether its murder, homosexuality, or walking by someone who needs help and choose not to help them - its a sin. I don't get the high and mighty attitude of some Christians. The bible states that we go to heaven for beleiving in Jesus and accepting him into our heart... not by the good works that we do. Although we tend to want to more good things once we have accepted Jesus... and when we sin, we ask for forgiveness and move on.

As for the passages... just quoting one passage of scripture without reading the whole chapter is not a good idea. The bible is written in many parables, and pictures etc... It talks a lot about the bearing of fruit - which really has nothing to do with actual fruit... mostly its about the nourishment of God. And the bible says that if we don't get nourishment from God (spiritually) we won't bear fruit (I think this means goodness and kindess to others) and wither and become empty. I haven't read that whole chapter so I reserve the right to retract my interpretation, but I've seen those comparisons before in the Bible. You of all people Brendon I thought would be able to read into the metaphors..

I personally don't understand how someone could not beleive in God. Look at nature on this planet. Scientists have said this planet is a planet by design... Everything is balanced perfectly and the only thing screwing it up is Man. Man is the only species on this planet that can create with our hands, and yet our sinful nature is making us all greedy to the point of killing the planet. We want to be Gods... but we are not and can't be.

And there have been times in my life I thought I would be homeless or worse and yet something miraculous happens and the money showed up or something happened to prevent me from perishing... If there wasn't someone looking out for me up there - I would surely be dead by now.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_Renee
I personally don't understand how someone could not beleive in God. Look at nature on this planet. Scientists have said this planet is a planet by design... Everything is balanced perfectly and the only thing screwing it up is Man. Man is the only species on this planet that can create with our hands, and yet our sinful nature is making us all greedy to the point of killing the planet. We want to be Gods... but we are not and can't be.

And there have been times in my life I thought I would be homeless or worse and yet something miraculous happens and the money showed up or something happened to prevent me from perishing... If there wasn't someone looking out for me up there - I would surely be dead by now.

Guess it's a good thing God likes you and not all the other homeless people out there. I see He just killed a few more families on Christmas day.
Jeez... how perfectly balanced.

Originally Posted by: Kevin TaylorGuess it's a good thing God likes you and not all the other homeless people out there. I see He just killed a few more families on Christmas day.
Jeez... how perfectly balanced.

I don't think God kills people... we do. I think its because of our actions that people die. I do think God helps those who ask for it. Look at our population... we are greedy, selfish - and if God gave us everything - we would only get worse. Spoiled little children who are all very ungreatful for what he has given us.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeI don't think God kills people... we do. I think its because of our actions that people die. I do think God helps those who ask for it. Look at our population... we are greedy, selfish - and if God gave us everything - we would only get worse. Spoiled little children who are all very ungreatful for what he has given us.

Well...you just said you thought somebody up there must be looking out for you or you'd be dead.
So how come he looks out for you and not the president of Pakistan?
I guess I can't see how you don't get that it's all just circumstance and not some sky bully up there deciding who's fortunate today and who dies.

Oh.. I don't think he's just looking out for me... And I don't think he always steps in and helps either.

If someone pointed a gun at me and pulled the trigger - I'm pretty sure I would die too.

I think God helps everyone out subtely when he can - when someone asks of it and its part of his "plan" for us. We as humans have really messed things up here on earth... and I think God just lets us deal with our own consequences - he doesn't create bad things to happen to people.

See life on this planet to Christians is but a drop in the bucket in the big picture... we are just children who are being taught for the "real world"... which comes after death... So when we screw up or someone we know screws up and it affects us badly, I think if God thinks we will learn from it and in turn help others... he will let it happen.

Its like teaching a child to ride a bike... you let them knowing they will probably fall and hurt themselves... but you still let them do it because its part of the learning process. We are just those children and this isn't the whole life, so its not game over for us after we die.... We go on to something more.

I never bought into the whole plan or predestiny stuff, why would God predestine someone to go to hell?

I don't think he predestines anyone to go to hell either...

I do think he has a plan though and wants it to happen... but we have free will and have the power of choice. He is God and can make his plan happen with or without us... ultimately I think he wants us to be with him.. but of our own free will.

I kind of think of it as parenting... you have a child - want to teach them responsibility so you buy them a fish to look after.... they kill it from neglect.. Do you give up on them thinking they can't be responsible - no.. You learn that they are not ready and try again later.. I think God is parenting us and some get it quicker than others and other rebel - doesn't mean he ever gives up on us... Just patiently waits for us to get it.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeI don't think he predestines anyone to go to hell either...

I do think he has a plan though and wants it to happen... but we have free will and have the power of choice. He is God and can make his plan happen with or without us... ultimately I think he wants us to be with him.. but of our own free will.

I kind of think of it as parenting... you have a child - want to teach them responsibility so you buy them a fish to look after.... they kill it from neglect.. Do you give up on them thinking they can't be responsible - no.. You learn that they are not ready and try again later.. I think God is parenting us and some get it quicker than others and other rebel - doesn't mean he ever gives up on us... Just patiently waits for us to get it.

So all this stuff you just 'think' to be true.
You don't have any actual proof.
Man, talk about irony if it's actually the Devil in charge of everything and you've doing it backwards all this time.

Originally Posted by: Kevin TaylorSo all this stuff you just 'think' to be true.
You don't have any actual proof.
Man, talk about irony if it's actually the Devil in charge of everything and you've doing it backwards all this time.

Yes I beleive it with all my heart... I don't expect you to be able to understand. I use the term think as I didn't want to step on anyone toes by stating it was true... I know its what I beleive.

I pray that someday you may understand.

There isn't any proof that he doesn't exist either and we know Jesus walked this earth - that is a fact. I think there is more evidence to support the existance of God than not. Look at the earth - I just can't beleive that everything with the creation of the earth just randomlly happened. But that is where you and I differ...

I just can't beleive that a new born baby just randomly evolved one day and survived into adulthood on this Earth... And you said I have faith.. I think to beleive that would require just as much faith.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeAs for the passages... just quoting one passage of scripture without reading the whole chapter is not a good idea. The bible is written in many parables, and pictures etc... It talks a lot about the bearing of fruit - which really has nothing to do with actual fruit... mostly its about the nourishment of God. And the bible says that if we don't get nourishment from God (spiritually) we won't bear fruit (I think this means goodness and kindess to others) and wither and become empty. I haven't read that whole chapter so I reserve the right to retract my interpretation, but I've seen those comparisons before in the Bible. You of all people Brendon I thought would be able to read into the metaphors..[/QUOTE]
Oh, I get them. That passage continues with Jesus saying something like "What I did to that tree is what'll eventually happen to you if you don't believe in me." I just find the idea of the "Prince of Peace" needlessly killing a living thing funny.

[QUOTE=Tonja_Renee]I just can't beleive that a new born baby just randomly evolved one day and survived into adulthood on this Earth... And you said I have faith.. I think to beleive that would require just as much faith.

It was a lot more gradual than that. It was more a matter of families of monkey-things gradually having children with an extra toe, or less hair, or whatever would adapt them better to their surroundings at the time (and by 'at the time' I mean a period of thousands of years).

Since we're getting more into this discussion, I might as well make a distinction that I believe is important - the difference between God and god. God is the Perfect Creator of The Universe, whereas god is the creator of the universe. This is why I said earlier I was an Atheist and not an atheist. While I still don't believe in god, I have no proof he doesn't exist, and therefore I remain neutral on the subject of his existence. I have to admit, the idea we were all created sounds as plausible as any other theory we've got (until you start asking questions like 'who created the creator?' but never mind that).

But I do not - cannot - believe in the existence of God, simply because of the idea God is Perfect. Rather than explain all this over again, I'll just link you up with my philosophy mid-term.

Ok.. that was interesting...

As far as the gradual evolution - I still find that extremely hard to beleive... because scientifically (since that is where the argument comes from) if that were the case... we would have species in midst of evolving right now... I haven't seen any apes or gorrillas giving birth to human babies.. or have even heard of it. Let alone other species evolving into different species. Just requires just as much faith as to beleive that God created us.

And I can't really comment on the whole "perfect" argument... because I don't know what the original hebrew word that it refers to in the Bible... there are many instances in the bible that a word is translated and is used differently now than it was back then... and example is Emmanuel.. in the bible the hebrew word for Emmanuel (meaning God with us) is used.. and sometimes its translated to God with us and others it was left as a proper name Emmanuel still means the same thing however Emmanuel was somehow converted to a proper name when that appears was not the intention...

I beleive God is a supreme being, Almighty as compared to us... he is the Creator.. It states in the bible that we as mankind will become perfect after the Lord works on us... So i'm leaning towards the definition is not the same... maybe it means "ready" and completed or finished... that is just speculation on my part - but to not beleive in God based on one word and its definition doesn't seem just in my opinion.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_Renee

I pray that someday you may understand.

And I pray to Malvor the Magnificent for you too.

Originally Posted by: Kevin TaylorAnd I pray to Malvor the Magnificent for you too.

Whatever works for ya... :p

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeAs far as the gradual evolution - I still find that extremely hard to beleive... because scientifically (since that is where the argument comes from) if that were the case... we would have species in midst of evolving right now... I haven't seen any apes or gorrillas giving birth to human babies.. or have even heard of it. Let alone other species evolving into different species.

You're still not thinking gradual enough. In China, for example, it's a not-totally-uncommon thing for kids to be born with 6 toes. There is some debate as to whether this is just a mutation or the next step in evolution for humans.

Not to mention the fact that the 'monkey-things' we [supposedly] evolved from weren't of the same species as gorillas and chimps. Should they keep evolving, you might find they would look less like people.

But yes, I will grant you that it is a fairly absurd theory.

EDIT: And on the lighter side...


:)

This is the lighter side? You should go in politics, the way you twist things around. I hear Billiary could use a running mate!

Yeah... jokes like that.. twist things around to make them sound silly... but to be honest even twisted around like that in a joke - still doesn't make it sound any more silly than any other theory out there.


And six toes... what would be the benefit for having six toes... the theory of evolution is based on adapting to environment... and I'm at a loss as to how that would help someone.

Better balance and flipperless swimming?