Merry christmas

Originally Posted by: strat-manYour most sensible comment so far! any persons personal beliefs (be they religious or political) should remain just that....personal.... any public forum not related to either of those subjects is definately not the place to discuss them!


Have a nice day :)

Yup. Agree.

Originally Posted by: hunter60Yup. Agree.

Nah.. where's the fun in that?

While I think that discussions about religion are kinda useless, if we kept everything 'personal' all the time, all anybody would ever talk about is the weather.
My thoughts are that this is a musicians forum, for songwriters as well as guitar players. You need life experiences and knowledge in order to write songs and express yourself through your music. And one of life's experiences is learning how others feel and comparing it to your own thoughts.
I've got my own thoughts on religion but that doesn't keep me from appreciating other's points of few and trying to figure out where their heads are at.
In the end it helps you grow as a person and ultimately (hopefully) write better songs.

A bit late nevertheless merry Christmas to everyone, hope you'll are having a great holiday season.

Originally Posted by: Kevin TaylorNah.. where's the fun in that?

While I think that discussions about religion are kinda useless, if we kept everything 'personal' all the time, all anybody would ever talk about is the weather.
My thoughts are that this is a musicians forum, for songwriters as well as guitar players. You need life experiences and knowledge in order to write songs and express yourself through your music. And one of life's experiences is learning how others feel and comparing it to your own thoughts.
I've got my own thoughts on religion but that doesn't keep me from appreciating other's points of few and trying to figure out where their heads are at.
In the end it helps you grow as a person and ultimately (hopefully) write better songs.

Good point and I am all for a spirited debate. I was just concerned that things had been getting a little heated and didn't want to see something escalate, that's all.

I applaud your open-mindedness. :)

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeI'm sorry but you are sadly misinformed... Thanksgiving to Christ came before America was found. The pilgrims just included the Indians in their celebrations, its not why they celebrated to begin with....

As with mostly everything that was created by the church, it gets altered and obscured over the years and Christ gets taken out of it. If it wasn't for Christ and the Bible, we wouldn't even have schools - schools were created to teach people to read the Bible - nothing more. And now you can't even mention God or Jesus in school. Some thanks that is.

Thats why most people don't know that Thanksgiving is about God and Jesus - because it can't be taught in school that way... Its a real shame that people are learning about history that isn't the truth.

Well I'm glad you set me straight :)
I'm surprised no one has ever corrected me on this before. but yeah, thank you.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeIf it wasn't for Christ and the Bible, we wouldn't even have schools - schools were created to teach people to read the Bible - nothing more.

That's just plain not true.

Originally Posted by: earthman buckThat's just plain not true.

It is true... I'm not talking about Universities and such... but schools for children.. The church brought schooling to the poor. Only the very very wealthy could afford to have their children taught.

They began in the church... You look back to the origins of the early schooling and they were in church to teach children to read the bible. It wasn't until many years later that the governments thought it was a good idea and funded the teaching and brought the classes out of the church.

That's why Christianity was so prominent in schooling even as soon as 50 years ago.

There were schools long before christianity even existed.
The Babylonians had schooling in 2300 b.c. and taught art, architecture, mathematics, medicine, literature...

I think the human race would have got along fine without religion being involved and maybe we'd have advanced a little faster if everybody was free to think for themselves instead of being forced to adopt Christianity.

Look at the teachings of Galileo and what the church did to him.

To be honest I was talking about North America... I know there has been forms of education long before the death of Christ. However it wasn't available to everyone. The church was the organization that first brought education to everyone in North America.

I was just saying the Church has done wonderful things for the communities of North America. However I feel Christianity is the most rejected and censored religion here.... that of course is my opinion... from what I have seen.

Personally I think a world without religion would be a horrible place. No one thinking they are accountable for their actions.

I'm not saying Christianity or Christians are perfect... we are not. That is what Christianity is all about. We aren't good enough and never will be. But we will spend the rest of our lives trying to be the best that we can and be grateful to Jesus for sacrificing himself to save us. I don't expect you to understand that... God gave us free will and that's the beauty of it... if you don't want God - he will let you go.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeI feel Christianity is the most rejected and censored religion here.... that of course is my opinion... from what I have seen.[/QUOTE]
Whaaaaat? You think Christianity is the most censored religion in North America? I think the fact that the huge majority of Canadians and Americans celebrate Christmas says otherwise. What about, like, Wicca or Shinto? Compare a Sikh wearing a turban in school with a Christian wearing a golden cross in school and see who gets picked on more.

[QUOTE=Tonja_Renee]Personally I think a world without religion would be a horrible place. No one thinking they are accountable for their actions.

To some degree, religion can be a good thing. It can give people hope and the faith that things will ultimately work out. It can help people beat their addictions and vices, and like you said, it can even hold people accountable for their actions.

The problem is when people take the "accountable for their actions" bit too far and mess up the whole world for the sake of obeying an ancient (and at least partially irrelevant) text to the letter. And that's kind of where I think we are now. Still.

Yes I think that Christianity is censored more.... I seriously doubt if somone wearing a turban would be picked on by teachers and government officials.. in fact I think the authorities would bend over backward to accomodate his religion and respect their praying times during the day or whatever they needed to do in respect of their religion...

However if a Christian wanted to take time in school or work to pray - do you think it would be allowed... of course not. As somone said before they'll get a detention for wishing someone Merry Christmas.

So yeah... I think everyone would bend to accomodate other religions before Christianity.

I do agree that there are Christians out there who judge - and I don't know why that is and nor do I agree with that. Anyone who commits sins well in my opinion that is between them and God (and everyone sins, even Christians - any Christian out there that says they don't sin is committing one as they say that) it is not my place nor anyone's to judge other people.

I don't know the Bible inside and out... but I do read it very frequently and try to learn more everyday. In the New Testament Jesus said the most important commandment to follow is to Love thy Neighbor as you love yourself... and I think there are many Christians that lose sight of the love they are supposed to share. It becomes about right and wrong - and justice...

Unfortunately... people hold Christians to a higher level than anyone else - so when a Christian messes up or loses their way... it puts a dark mark on Christianity. In the end... its just about You and God and how one chooses to nurture that relationship.

Edit** I misquoted the New Testament by stating Jesus said the most important comandment was love thy neighbor... that's not true the most important comandment was Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind.. the second most important was love thy neighbor (Matthew 22 : 36)

Originally Posted by: earthman buckWhaaaaat? You think Christianity is the most censored religion in North America? I think the fact that the huge majority of Canadians and Americans celebrate Christmas says otherwise. What about, like, Wicca or Shinto? Compare a Sikh wearing a turban in school with a Christian wearing a golden cross in school and see who gets picked on more.


To some degree, religion can be a good thing. It can give people hope and the faith that things will ultimately work out. It can help people beat their addictions and vices, and like you said, it can even hold people accountable for their actions.

The problem is when people take the "accountable for their actions" bit too far and mess up the whole world for the sake of obeying an ancient (and at least partially irrelevant) text to the letter. And that's kind of where I think we are now. Still.

I agree with Tonja. Christianty is the most censored religion in the US. You quote things happening in the (public) schools that just aren't true. A Christian cannot wear a cross on the outside of their shirt, but you can wear a shulk and cross bones T-shirt. You will find books in the library on witchcraft and santic rituals, but you will not find the Bible (I'm sure this is not the case in all public schools).

Back to my original question. What is right and what is wrong? Is what society says (the majority or mob, an average, a compromise), the government (who thinks were are too stupid to knkow what is best for us), how each dividual (which includes murders, rapists, theives, ect.), maybe the media or Hollywood (Anything goes), the schools (who so such a great job educating our children), your mother and father (Who still think of you as there little baby), etc. determine what is right and wrong? If someone personally believes it is OK to murder someone for looking at them crossed eyed, is he right. If the government says you cannot have more than one child per couple under threat of going to prison, are they right? Right and wrong is found in the Bible, God's word, and when people (who God has given free will) errors, does not make the Bible or religion false, outdated, etc.

I personally believe when someone states they are an athesist, they just don't want anyone pointing the finger and stating that what they are doing is wrong. Yet most of the time they really know they are doing wrong and that is why they are so quick to anger.

Just my opinion!

Merry Christmas
Happy Channukah
Eid Mubarak

Seasons greetings, whatever you are... and a happy new year... ;)

Originally Posted by: looneytunesI agree with Tonja. Christianty is the most censored religion in the US. You quote things happening in the (public) schools that just aren't true. A Christian cannot wear a cross on the outside of their shirt, but you can wear a shulk and cross bones T-shirt. You will find books in the library on witchcraft and santic rituals, but you will not find the Bible (I'm sure this is not the case in all public schools).[/QUOTE]
You're right, it's not. I don't recall ever seeing any Satanic books in my school library, and I've looked, because that stuff interests me. There may have been one or two about occultism, but nothing pertaining to Satanism the way the Bible pertains to Christianity.There was a Bible prominently displayed in my English classroom every year of high school, and I went to a public school. It never came out in class, but we were welcome to read it if we had some free time, just like we were with any other book.

As for the cross thing, I've never heard anyone asked to "tuck it in." We were asked to turn our shirts inside out if they were deemed inappropriate (generally depicting alcohol), but crosses were just fine.

...and I just plain don't know what a shulk is.

Originally Posted by: looneytunesIf the government says you cannot have more than one child per couple under threat of going to prison, are they right? Right and wrong is found in the Bible, God's word, and when people (who God has given free will) errors, does not make the Bible or religion false, outdated, etc.[/QUOTE]
Keep in mind you're saying that from a tremendously Christian point of view. There are tons of passages in the Bible that I think even most believers would agree are hilariously outdated and have nothing to do with right or wrong. An example: [QUOTE=King James Bible, Deuteronomy 25:5-10]If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother. Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her; Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house. And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

Is it right, then, that this is the case? How about the passage that says that if a woman bears a male child, she is "unclean" for seven days, but bearing a female child makes her "unclean" for two weeks (Leviticus 12:2-5)? Is that right?

[QUOTE=looneytunes]I personally believe when someone states they are an athesist, they just don't want anyone pointing the finger and stating that what they are doing is wrong. Yet most of the time they really know they are doing wrong and that is why they are so quick to anger.

I state I am an atheist because I don't believe in God. I find most of what Jesus taught to be good advice, and yes, for the most part I even follow it. But I see no proof of a Perfect Entity ruling the universe, and even less proof that the Bible is what is right. And so I must declare myself an atheist. You don't need to be religious to have morals, you know.

And what's all this about being "quick to anger?" Are you saying all atheists are intrinsically "quick to anger?" How so?

Originally Posted by: earthman buck
I state I am an atheist because I don't believe in God. I find most of what Jesus taught to be good advice, and yes, for the most part I even follow it. But I see no proof of a Perfect Entity ruling the universe, and even less proof that the Bible is what is right. And so I must declare myself an atheist. You don't need to be religious to have morals, you know.

And what's all this about being "quick to anger?" Are you saying all atheists are intrinsically "quick to anger?" How so?

Well said. Same here. I have to state I'm an Atheist because I usually have to pick a choice from a category. In reality, I guess I'm a Nothingist. I don't believe, or not believe in anything. I wish human intellect and the search for knowledge and understanding could prevail without any beliefs or 'faith' mixed in there to mess things up.
I too think there have been good things that have come from religion. However, I find it sad that humanity has to rely on such a crutch instead of just using their brains to figure things out for themselves.

I guess that's one of things about religion that bothers me the most. It's an organization that preys on people who can't think for themselves.
I kinda shake my head in disbelief when people talk about God as if he's real, yet if I was to talk about 'Malvor the Magnificent' from Alpha-Centuri who speaks to Earthlings on Sea Beams from the Shores of Orion. Then set up an organization that makes money from people organizing in my "Space Palaces" or 'churches' as you call them, I'd be labeled a fraud and a fruitcake.

So, how do you do determine what is right and wrong?

Originally Posted by King James Bible, Deuteronomy 25:5-10
If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother. Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her; Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house. And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

Ok this is from the Old Testament... The Old Testament is followed by the Jews... it prophecises the coming of Christ, and these laws are followed by the Jews... Christianity is the New Testament which is a new covenant with God because the Jews rejected Jesus (the Messiah). Christians do not follow those old laws... the Old Testament is included with the New Testament as a testimony that the two volumes are tied together. So by picking apart the Old Testament you really are picking apart Judaism not Christianity.

The Bible is an amazing document... its 66 books written by over 40 different authors, who most of them did not know one another - over a span of 1500 years... yet tells the complete history of God, the Jews, the rejection, and then savior of all mankind.

C.S. Lewis wrote a book on Christianity "Mere Christianity"... as he was an Athiest - set out to prove there was no God and because of his research and what he learned became a very devought Christian... He said that for people to say that Jesus was not the son of God, but was a morally just person is absurd... He said for someone to claim the things that Jesus did and not to be the truth would have to make him a raving lunatic... you either have to beleive in him as a whole or that he was insane. It was also in that book that C.S. Lewis talked about our ingrained ability to sense right from wrong and wanted to know how the average person from childhood regardless of upbringing had that sense...

Originally Posted by: looneytunesSo, how do you do determine what is right and wrong?

Follow the law and what society has come to expect.

Originally Posted by: Kevin TaylorFollow the law and what society has come to expect.

That still wouldn't give us the sense of remorse... And then it becomes the whole chicken and the egg thing... did we have a sense of right and wrong before laws and if not... who decided the laws should be made if we didn't know the difference?

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeThat still wouldn't give us the sense of remorse... And then it becomes the whole chicken and the egg thing... did we have a sense of right and wrong before laws and if not... who decided the laws should be made if we didn't know the difference?

Laws come about because of what works best for society as a whole.
Just because we don't believe that there's a magical space alien guy called God, doesn't mean we'd be too dumb to figure out right from wrong.