Usama speaks . . .


Christoph
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Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
Bin Laden said that the U.N. is a "tool of crime". Heh, for once I agree with him.
# 1
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
hmmm.... I'll try and find the arabic version...
For the mean time, Why Do you think the UN is a "tool crime"? ....
# 2
vrnorman
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Joined: 10/23/01
Posts: 20
I'm, curious also. Having lived in the South for part of my life I have heard the "Rednecks" and the "KKK" echo that very sentiment. I have seen signs that want the "US out of the UN", praded down the street by people wearing Red, Black, and White hoods with capes that look like bedsheets.

I consider these people to be the dreggs of humanity and I also group them in the same catagory with Bin Laden. They all wear their hoods or towels or whatever you choose to call them, and they preach EXTREME'ism.

So what is the true meaning of "United Nations"? I think that I will do some research for myself and come back here to hear your answer.

I do plan to debate, but I will have my facts straight prior to the debate. I will never echo the sentiments of a fool such as Bin Laden without having the full truth.

If you were really smart, I don't think that you would echo the words of a fool.


"Peace"

Th'WOLF
# 3
Christoph
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Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
Originally posted by vrnorman
If you were really smart, I don't think that you would echo the words of a fool.


I think it was our very own Educatedfilm who once said that the stupidest always talk back the loudest. Thank you for finally proving his point.

Mr. Bin Laden is many things, but he is certainly not a fool. He is a very calculating and devious man who knows what he wants and knows how to accomplish it. He proved this on Sept 11. To underestimate your enemy and call him a fool only guarantees your own demise.

The Romans thought the peoples of the European steppes were nothing more than barbaric fools, and look what happened to them.

I'm starting to sound like Educatedfilm here (maybe we're not so different after all), but in order to defeat your enemy you have to understand them, their motives, and their goals. Every person, no matter what their cause, always believes that God is on their side and that their way is the only right one. In this sense, everything is relative, and the winner is he who presses his agenda the hardest and with the most conviction. (why do you think the Taliban are out there claiming all sorts of civilian casualties?)

Nope, Bin Laden is no fool, and we'd be fools to think that he is.


Ed, in my opinion, the U.N. is a "tool of crime" in that it's nothing more than a means for the global elite to centralize power in a world government and take our freedoms away. :cool:

# 4
Bardsley
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Posts: 731
It's interesting how some things can be argued against from such different perspectives. The anti-globalisation debate has been taken up by left-wingers who are against the corporate globalisation that favours large companies and large countries over others, while the hard right are against the globalisation because of their desire to keep closed borders against other countries. I think that many people have a problem with the UN becaus ethey se it basically as the US further pushing their agenda through dominance while making the UN appear as somehting that can make decisions that will be good for all countries. I doubt this is why you, Cristoph would have a problem with it, though you seem to have a similar idea in a way.

The way agreements and disagreements are seen in these political forums have been really interesting because they show the ways in which it is hard to define people as being simply left wing, or right wing, for instance. It has been made clear through history how communism and fascism end up being very similar, despite the completely opposing ideologies behind them, and it is interesting the way that I agree with some of Cristoph's ideas, despite being fairly liberal in beliefs, and often taking issue with what I see as being imperialist ideologies. That we can see an agreement between Osama and Cristoph is funny, because it shows the way that people from completely different viewpoints can see something as bad for completely (often contradictory) reasons.
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year, it's just not that widely reported".
# 5
educatedfilm
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Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
Bardsley has pretty much said what i want to say....
hmmm... Christoph, We're very similar just comming from 180 degrees, if that makes sense... I'm glad to see that your smart enough to relize that ben laden isn't stuipid... and we shouldn't under estimate him....
Still... I knida get what your saying... but from what i know (which i admit isn't enough to enter a debate about), the UN does more good than harm... I'll go do my reaserch when i do my HUGE maths exams on the 8th and 12th *heart pounds relizing I should be doing some more revision instead of this*
Oh yeah before i forget, I went to your site, very good, It's nice an pretty. Unfortunatly you chose using frames... oh well... Just joking it's a nice site... I had a listen to your sound files, the acoustic celtic/ blues thing is VERY good, Did you write that? If you did, I'm quite impressed...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-06-2001 at 08:50 AM]
# 6
vrnorman
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Joined: 10/23/01
Posts: 20
fool - A person lacking understanding, judgement, or common sense.

I believe the true definition of the word defines Bin Lauden.

Are you saying that he used good judgement by attacking the United States?

No sir, Mr. Bin Lauden IS a fool. He is a dangerous fool with archaic certitude.

I will give him credit for his abilities as a manipulator. He guides his band of fools like the mindless fish they are.

You certainly never see Bin Lauden doing the dirty work.

But then you never saw Hitler killing a Jew.

And yes I may be a fool for wasting my time with boorish closet intellectuals such as yourself.




Th'WOLF
# 7
Christoph
is Super Fabulous
Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
Originally posted by educatedfilm
Oh yeah before i forget, I went to your site, very good, It's nice an pretty. Unfortunatly you chose using frames... oh well... Just joking it's a nice site... I had a listen to your sound files, the acoustic celtic/ blues thing is VERY good, Did you write that? If you did, I'm quite impressed...


Thanks man. Yeah, I wrote all the stuff up there.

I know, frames are "bad". Eventually, I'm going to redo the entire interface with I-frames. Check back in a few months . . .

In the meantime, do that research on the UN, and we'll have a chat about it.


Originally posted by vrnorman
fool - A person lacking understanding, judgement, or common sense.


I don't really want to get into a debate defending Bin Laden (I believe that he is a criminal and must be brought to justice), but even by this definition, he is not a fool.

His point of view is very different than ours. He views us as evil. (understanding) He knows what he must do to accomplish his goals. (judgement) And he knows how to do it. (common sense)

Originally posted by vrnorman
You certainly never see Bin Lauden doing the dirty work.


How does that prove his foolishness? If anything, it proves otherwise. The people who were up there flying planes into buildings and commiting suicide were certainly fools, but you don't see Bin Laden strapping a bomb on and running into a cafeteria.

He is a devious mastermind who, like any leader, uses other people to accomplish his goals.
# 8
vrnorman
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Joined: 10/23/01
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Immediately following the original bombing of the WTC building I was flown to an undisclosed site in Northern NJ to assist three companies in the recovery of their businesses. During that time I made a lot of friends just by default. When you are in the company of innocent people that have been the victims of a malicious deed such as that, you tend to become part of their lives as they share the horrid details of their experience.

Some of the people never returned to the WTC but, many did return as they felt a duty not only to their employer but to their country and their customers. I have discovered that all of the people that I knew from that company (a Japanese Bank) perished.

I have had to think about their faces and hear their voices every time I see the building go down, every time I see those planes crash into the buildings, and every time I see a family member of one of the victims on TV.

You have to understand why I feel the way that I feel. Maybe Bin Lauden appears to you not to be a fool but, if I had perpetrated that deed and had the most powerful military in the world hunting me, tracking me, sending in Delta Force troups, who by the way do not take prisoners, and had my own people sideing against me, I would feel very foolish. If he does not feel that way, then he truly is a madman.

This whole matter is more than political to me. In fact, the political implications mean nothing to me. Many innocent people all over the world have suffered personal losses. I expect to see justice served in this case. Justice is something that we as a free people seldom see contrary to popular belief.

As far as the UN, maybe it is just a tool for crime but; could that be only a matter of interpretation? I think the crime in the world is the way so much hostility is created in the name of religion. And who is right and who is wrong in their religious beliefs is a subject that will go to the grave with all of us. What if we die and thats it! It is hard to imagine a God that is so perfect in creation but would create a society of beasts like the human race.

I think evil is in the hearts of mankind.

I think goodness is also in the hearts of mankind.

Sorry for the unloading but I had to let you know why I was so frustrated by your statement. It is just very personal to me.

As one guitar player to another,

PEACE!
Th'WOLF
# 9
Christoph
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Posts: 1,623
I know where you're coming from. I think that Bin Laden and his Al Queda buddies all deserve justice. And I don't mean a trial. What I mean by justice is that his bullet-riddled corpse should be left for scavengers by any US or British Special Forces that happen to find him.

However, if you know anything about the history of the Special Forces, you know that it's been one cluster f*** after another. Vietnam, Cambodia, Iran, Somalia . . . I tend to agree with what Ed said a while back in another thread. Bin Laden will probably join the many who have succesfully evaded "the most powerful military in the world". Heck, we couldn't even get a few measily warlords in Somalia or take out Saddam Hussien when we had the chance.

I hope that they do find him and that Operation Enduring Freedom, or whatever it's called, is successful, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Bin Laden has already proved his resolve several times, and it would be a grave mistake to underestimate him again.
# 10
Alan Moorhouse
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Joined: 05/24/01
Posts: 33
Anybody want to tell me what any of this has to do with guitar?
;) Reelin' in the years...
# 11
educatedfilm
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Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
nothing... we'll still carry on as usual with the normal posts, but these more political posts help us to get points of our chest, and kinda get to know each other better than a 1 dimensional guitar playing stranger...

Chrisoph: yep, you can add Castro to that list... I do think he deserves a trail, it certainly kill Ben Laden the ledgend, and turn him into the criminal...
I think poeple under estimate how truley dificult it is to find someone who could be hiding anywhere in a Whole country...
# 12
vrnorman
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Joined: 10/23/01
Posts: 20
As much as I want that madman caught and punished, I have to agree that my faith in the administration and the abilities of the military to capture him are a bit diminished. I am a Viet Nam Vet and I surely don't have to tell you how that thing ended.

I suppose that from my perspective, I see the military capabilities hampered by the administration. Bush seems to be giving them (the military) what they need to succeed. I guess we can only hope and maybe support the effort as best we can.

I am still convinced that we did exactly what Bush 1st. proclaimed that we would do in the Iraq war. I remember him saying that we were there to liberate the OIL (oh sorry, the good people of Kawait) and never mentioned bringing So Damn Insane to justice. If I am wrong here please correct me, but I can't honestly remember Bush making that statement.

My opinion: That was a major mistake and we are paying for it today.

Castro: Geesh, we should have wasted that guy in the 60's when we still had the power to do that. Now he is just an old man but, still very powerful. Did you know that Cuban Regular's were used in Viet Nam to interrogate and torture American POW's?

Peace
Th'WOLF
# 13
educatedfilm
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"we should have wasted that guy in the 60's when we still had the power to do that"
??????? Unless i've been reading lies, the CIA were pretty much given permition to assisnate, and then given the order back in the Sixties...
# 14
Bardsley
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Castro has been subject to a record number of US government sanctioned assassination attempts. I am unaware of the exact number of sanctioned attempts off the top of my head, but I believe it is in its hundreds. Not only that, but something like 200 hundred civilians have died as a result of assassination attempts against him by the US; kind of funny (not that people died obviously, but you know what I mean). The US went to such extremes as lacing Castro's scuba diving gear with poison (he used to be a passionate diver) and planting exploding sea shells where he used to go diving. Not only that, but exploding cigars, car bombs, etc. Something out of James Bond, only Castro continues to live. I know he is a dictator, and he seems to be the symbol of who not to like in the US, but you've gotta respect the guy to a degree. In Cuba, he spends something like 6 hours on tv daily ranting about US foreign policy, which sounds amusing. The fact that the health system is widely regarded as being more efficient than America's despite all the sanctions against them is quite interesting. Of course, it does seem like the citizens aren't exactly happy with the country, I'm not pretending it is a perfect Utopia or anything like that.
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year, it's just not that widely reported".
# 15
Christoph
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Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
Originally posted by vrnorman
Did you know that Cuban Regular's were used in Viet Nam to interrogate and torture American POW's?


I certainly did not know that. I thought it was mainly the Soviets that came down to do their dirty work.


Originally posted by educatedfilm
Unless i've been reading lies, the CIA were pretty much given permition to assisnate, and then given the order back in the Sixties...


Yes, Bardsley is correct. There were numerous attempts by the CIA to get rid of him. Snipers, bombs, poison, etc.


Originally posted by Bardsley
The fact that the health system is widely regarded as being more efficient than America's despite all the sanctions against them is quite interesting.


What?! I don't know where in God's name you got that idea. Their health system is terrible. They don't have enough doctors, because people can make more money as a bus-boy or an entertainer for all the European tourists over in the fancy hotels.

I know the Cuban situation really well and have strong Cuban ties, so don't even try to debate me on this.

With the revolution, Cuba went from bad to worse. As bad as things were under the dictator Batista, they've been 10 times worse under Castro.
# 16


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Chris man I hate to interject into this thread, as I've mostly been an observer, but I feel the need to disagree with you on that Cuba point. After Castro's rebels removed Batista, he instituted huge social changes, such as the building of schools, hospitals, roads, and other public service systems. The Cuban literacy rate is something remarkably high (in the very high 90s)- maybe due to the fact there school is mandatory and university is free- and their health care system is fabulous. Castro's reengineering of Cuba is much like Stalin's two Five Year Plans (complete with the elimination of political opposition), albeit on a much smaller scale.
# 17
educatedfilm
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I have to agree with james here... their health system is meant to be great, and their life expectancy better than here in the UK, but I'm not too knowledgable about this... but in a field which I do know about, they have made some fantastic advances in the field of biotechnology...
# 18
Bardsley
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Christoph, I'm not going to debate you on it, becsause I freely admit to only having hand-me-down info, but the response by Jame and Educatedfilm suggests that I wasn't making up the statement, and it seems that many people do actually thinkt he health system is good. As I said, I realise heaps of people hate living there, I'm not pretending it's anything other than a military dictatorship, but still...
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year, it's just not that widely reported".
# 19
Christoph
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Posts: 1,623
Originally posted by James
After Castro's rebels removed Batista, he instituted huge social changes, such as the building of schools, hospitals, roads, and other public service systems.


I'll admit that Castro has done some good things, but if it's such a paradise over there then why do we have people drowning in their little rafts off the coast of Florida?

The Russians saw that their "implementation" of communism was going down the tubes, and they wanted Cuba to be the new model state. Most of the projects you mentioned were started and financed by Russians, so we can't really give Castro all the credit anyway.

Compared to Castro, Batista was no saint. But look at it this way, if Castro hadn't come along, Batista would have probably died in a few years and they'd have a democratic government by now. We could all enjoy cheap airfares to La Havana from Miami, and the Cuban people would benefit from our money. They have great beaches in Cuba by the way . . .

One other thing - yeah, their education system is great and they have free universities. But like I said, people can make more money working for the tourists, so why would they want to go through all the trouble of becoming an engineer or a doctor?


Originally posted by educatedfilm
their health system is meant to be great, and their life expectancy better than here in the UK


Everything is "meant" to be great, but that doesn't mean that it is. I'm sure that the health system is very good for certain people, like those in the government and Castro's buddies, but everyone else is in squalor.

By the way, the reason for their long life expectancy is that only a few people, the rich, have cars. Everyone else has to walk or ride their bikes.


Originally posted by Bardsley
...but the response by Jame and Educatedfilm suggests that I wasn't making up the statement, and it seems that many people do actually thinkt he health system is good.


Just because people like Ed think it's good doesn't mean that it is good.
# 20