A word on islam

Originally posted by Christoph
Exactly who are they being occupied by? That's Israeli land that they're sitting on, rightfully taken by Israel thousands of years ago before the palestinians even existed as a people. By all accounts, the palestinians are occupying Israeli land, and Israel has the right to take it back by any means.

So who's tribal land are you currently occupying? Cree? Soux? Iriquois? Apache? Unless you live in Rhode Island, you're living on stolen soil.

The people who invaded Isreal died hundreds of years ago, after a few generations "taking back" land is really very irrelivent. The people responsible, the people displaced, and all there children are gone, so basicly everyone there is a native. The "we stole it fair and square" argument has got to go. If you really want to get right down to it, the first Israelis (if you will) had to take the same peice of land we're talking about from people who lived there. The more we did, the more we find that Israel has been contested land since people first left Africa. Sadly, I don't see this changing soon.

Try looking at this from more of a Palestinian perspective: You're being kicked off the land your people have lived on for hundreds of years so your home can be torn down and replaced by trailers for some jerkoff who just moved in from New Jersey will have a place to live because he happens to be of the same religeon/decent of the people your great-great-great-great-great uncle's cousin drove off the land.
Would you just say "eh, I guess this guy deserves it more than I do?"

And the real pisser about this is that if you boil everything down, Palestinians and Israelis really want the same things:

• Jerusalem as the capital of their state
  


• Freedom to practice their religeon in peace
  


• Security
  


• To live happy and satisfying lives on the collection of dirt we know today as Israel.
  

But the added complication is that neither side is paticuarly happy with the other. Otherwise they could form one country and be done with it.

What?! How dare you come in her ewith your highfilutin ways and give a sensible response to a problem? j/k, nice post. It's interesting here in Australia how we are currently going through problems because of a whole lot of refugees (that the government doesn't like to call refugees) coming here in boats illegally. There is this whole thing about "illegal boat people" not thinking about the fact that 200 years ago (not really that long) we were the illegal boat people, and we slaughtered and displeced millions of the aboriginal communities who had been living in Australia for about 40,000 years. Of course, when Aborigines ask to have some land back we complain, so it's not as if we stand up for some sort of "we were here first policy".

Welcome back rask... yeah, as i've said before I'm not really intrested about what happened 2 or 3 generations back, what we need to do is sort out the current problems...
Whether the lands belongs to the Isreali's or the Palastinains isn't an issue any more, how to integrate or segrigate the two societies is...

Hey all the muslims around i have a question to ask:
do you know what happened in 1949 when a cease fire was signed between israel and all the arab nations around?
thousands of palestinians found themselves inside jordan egypt lebanon and syria
do you know which country was the only one to make them citizens, instead of putting them into gettho style camps???
righty it was israel
do you know that according to the british and world maps of the 20's of the 20 century palestine includes modern jordan, the british already founded palestinian state back in the 20's when they formed jordan, which according to their, not our maps is the east side of palestine
do you know that according to dennis ross, the negotiations
in camp david failed only because arafat wasnt ready to sign the stupid paper??/

how can you blame israel for shooting kids, when in every riot of those kids gunmen hides between those kids?
those kids are only cover for the gunmen, kind of human shelter

You are all saying "lets forget the past problems and deal with the modern one" but you cant blame israel on this or any other war in the region and then when people like me prove you it was the muslims fault to say "it doesnt matter" because it does. the zionist in the 20-30's of the last century didnt conquered any single mile of this land
they bought all the land they could from the palestinians and tried to live here in peace
the palestinians started the violence when one day they desided they want to kill few jews in jaffo, and since then they never stoped their violence. according to the UN there were supposed to be two countries here ITS NOT ISRAEL'S FAULT THERE IS NO PALESTINIAN ONE. THEY STARTED THE ****ING WAR AND THEY LOST IT. NO ONE TO BLAME EXCEPT THEMSELVES.
they could deside wether they choose peace or war, and you all know what they have chosen, so they cant delete all the past, like one day sudenly the bad israelis arived and kicked their asses, they started it all, they have to admit it someday

Thank you, Zeppelin, for that dose of sanity. It was sorely needed.


*Sigh* Eddy, Bardsley, and Rasky. Like three little ducklings in a row, all quacking in agreement.

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
So who's tribal land are you currently occupying? Cree? Soux? Iriquois? Apache? Unless you live in Rhode Island, you're living on stolen soil.

The Americas were conquered several hundred years ago by the "evil" Europeans. My understanding of the word 'conquer' is that the people who are defeated subsequently give up the rights to the land (or whatever). So I have every right to be sitting here on what used to be Apache land, because it was conquered and taken, not stolen. (It isn't like the Indians were doing anything with it anyway.)

The same goes for Israel. Except they have conquered the land over and over again (the 6 Day War, etc), and have even offered concessions to the defeated. They offered the Palestinians citizenship, even when their fellow Arab countries didn't want them, and have offered them their own government and now even their own state.

And what do the Israelis get in return? The Palestinians strap bombs on and blow themselves up in the middle of crowded malls and shops filled with innocent people.

The Palestinians either need to realize that they're not going to accomplish anything through their glorious infatada, or they can keep going out to throw pebbles at Israeli tanks and then cry for more blood when their children are slain.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
Or we could do the sensible thing, and let the un in to investigate Isreal's use of force...

Israel has every right to use force. They're defending their country!!!

I thought that in the twentieth century we had grown out of ideas about "conquering" land. Does this mean that Palestine have every right to continue to fight with Israel, because one day they might win and then they will have "conquered" Israel?
As for the "it's not like they were using it anyway" story, how do you know? Hundreds of places in Australia are seen as sacred sites by Aboriginal tribes, but becaus ethey didn't feel the need to build huge momuments like western cultures on sacred sites (why should they, after all the land is what is revered), settlers came here and declared the land "terra nullius", and decided that it wasn't being used. Also, by suggesting that Aboriginal tribes weren't "using" particular land, thus making it easy pickings, ignores the whole way in which nmadic people cultivate the environment, moving on to leave time for the land to grow back and replenish. I don't know anything about Native American cultures, so that is why I am referring to cultures of my country, but seeing as the things you said are often things said supporting England's colonisation of Australia, I believe I am right in making a comparison.
I have actually attempted to stay out of the debate about whether Palestine or Israel is in the "right", becaus I don't know enough (and don't pretend to) about the situation, but I simply think that saying "Isrrael are right so it doesn't matter how many Palestinians get killed" is an unattractive solution to a problem. Yes, Arafat is a hopeless leader, who I hope will lose power soon, but when both sides see themselves as retaliating against previous violence, something has to stop on both sides.

the only reason there is more dead palestinians than jews is because they dont have a well trained and equiped army like we do. they cant blame us in being stronger, or they expect us to throw our weapons away and to turn ourselves to freaking suicide bombers like them?

"do you know what happened in 1949 when a cease fire was signed between israel and all the arab nations around? "
Isreal was "declared" in 48, the arabs hadn't had a choice, and who signed the papers?


"do you know that according to the british and world maps of the 20's of the 20 century palestine "

you can use that as an example!! The british were on the side of the jews from 1917 (the Balfor declaration), and they delbrtly split up the arabs world to share with the Italians and the French...

"do you know that according to dennis ross, the negotiations
in camp david failed only because arafat wasnt ready to sign the stupid paper??/ "

Dennis Ross is jewish and has served in the Isreali millitary!!! The man is bound to say that...

"You are all saying "lets forget the past problems and deal with the modern one" but you cant blame israel on this or any other war in the region and then when people like me prove you it was the muslims fault to say"

I would like you to read the recently released papers on the 56 war...

"And what do the Israelis get in return? The Palestinians strap bombs on and blow themselves up in the middle of crowded malls and shops filled with innocent people."

Stop using this emotive example, which is wholly inaccurate, as more of the palastinains die in the "retaliations" to these attacks, when the poeple responsible are not respresentitive of the palastinains...

"Israel has every right to use force. They're defending their country!!!"
I'm sorry Christoph, but you clearly dont think much of anyone's IQ here... How on God's earth is bombing with helicopter gunships, f-16s, and tanks shell, whith out descriminating civilain areas, self defence?

"they cant blame us in being stronger"
??????? EH? During the holocuast the Germans were stronger, and they commited some real atrocities, are we meant to say "yeah, well... The jews cant blame them, it's not the Nazi's fault they're stronger"... This argument is absoloutly rediculous, Might doesn't mean your right...

"conquering" is pretty much the International equivilant of armed robbery, it's nothing to be proud of, and it's not right...

israel was founded in 1948. the arabs didnt have a choice?
hmmm yeah right syria iraq egyt and jordan realy didnt have a choice but to fight israel did they?

the british DIDNT support the jews from the beginning of the 20's as result of the arabian violence they wrote the "white books" which stoped the jewish immigration into palestine.

ed you dont know what are you talking about man, all the muslims try to prove to the world that israel controles the palestinian lands because we are some kind of nazis and we want the palestinians dead.
thats a bull**** man, when those lands were conquered in the 60's they were conquered as part of egypt and jordan, not as palestine or something like that, moreover when peace were signed with jordan and egypt they got back every cm of land they had before the wars, so you have to understand: israel does not cary a policy against the poor palestinian people. the plo's authorities are simply not willing to sign the peace treaty, and i frankly cant understand why
and besides we used our f-16 only once since the beggining of the intifada, so dont say things which are not true, about using helicopters: when we do use them we use them to kill the terrorist, and in most of the cases they cause damage only to the cars of those terrorists, and to the terrorists themselves, most of the palestinians that were killed during the last year are people who supported terror, we dont come to their cities and just kill them for fun, why cant you understand it????
do you know that during the last year the israeli intelligence prevented about 10,000 acts of terror????
this is one of the main reasons there are more dead palestinians then jews

Originally posted by Christoph The Americas were conquered several hundred years ago by the "evil" Europeans. My understanding of the word 'conquer' is that the people who are defeated subsequently give up the rights to the land (or whatever). So I have every right to be sitting here on what used to be Apache land, because it was conquered and taken, not stolen. (It isn't like the Indians were doing anything with it anyway.)[/B]

Translation: what goes for me doesn't go for everybody else. I'm special.

If Israel has the right to force an Arab out of their home at gun point, an Apache indian has that same right to drive you from yours. And yes, though they left few signs of it, they were doing plenty with that land.

Lets look at this from a real world perspective:

Israel wants Palistinans to up and leave their homes hapily and peacefully, and not show the least resistance.

Palistinian terrorists expect that violent attacks on their enemy will somehow break them, or drive them away.

Both veiw points are rediculous. Both sides have had ample chance to end the violence, but have passed every time. Both force the other side to harden their stance and become more and more extreamist. Sadly, hardliners lead both sides so there will be no compromise any time soon. Such is the nature of humanity. I hold both sides at fault.

Zep: The Brittish pulled out and handed the issue over the the UN after one of their officials was assassinated by a Zionist rebel- both sides have had bloody hands for some time now. As an outsider to the conflict I have to say that the people who started this are dead and their children are dead. It doesn't matter who started this and why because most of the current participants were born into this. It's time to end it and go on living.

it does matter who started out the whole thing, because the palestinians cant blame us for kicking them out of their houses in 1948, when they were the ones to start the war. this IS the problem, they could have their very own country (if we assume jordan is not one, even though it is) for 53 years now, instead they've choosen to fight us, and now you want us to disconect from the past, and to look whats going on now. this is simply unfair, you cant expect israel to forget 50 years of war and terror, which we didnt want, and look into the happy future. You must understand: palestinians suffer because thats the way their fathers and grandfathers've choosen, not because israel want to depress them. they teach their kids that one day mad israeli setlers rushed into this "rich and prospering land of palestine", killed thousands of palestines and kicked them out of their homeland, when in fact before jewish settelers arrrived down here, the whole country was a one big swamp, and the palestinians almost ate their own ****, coze there were nothing else here. do you think israel is realy interested in controling another 1.5 milion muslims when its clear it will kill the whole idea of the jewish state?? of course not, even people like sharon now know palestinian state is the only way to live here in peace,
but as long as the plo doesnt do anything to stop the violence, as long as i care they all can go on with eating their own ****. they leaders choosen the way of intifada, they dont know any other way exept violence, and believe me
though i'd realy prefer to go to college in the next year instead of going to the army, and watching my friends dying in gaza and other places, the palestinians dont leave us any choice.
you can blame israel in many things, but the truth is one, and as long as i know we are right, i dont realy care what all the people think.

Put yourself into their shoes:

Every new settlement dislocates more Palistinians. All of the settlements currently under construction are on the sites of former Palistinian homes. Do you honestly expect them to not care, to just accept it as their fate?

I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't.

Also Sharone and other hardliners in your governemt are turning their backs on the peace process and moving to a more hawkish stance as Arrafat is taking his most agressive steps to crack down on militants ever. Palistinians are screaming for UN observers, the Israeli government is doing everything it can to fight them. What does this say? Finally, many Israelis on border cities simply want a big wall put up, yet official Israeli policy is against this. Well, why? Because a wall would denote an end to Israel, ie: An official recognition of "There Side" and "Our Side," thus ending Israel's expansion. If Sharone wants a Palistinian state, he doesn't want it until yet more settlements are in place.

And yes, I know, there are people on their side who will do anything to stop a peace deal from being made. There are people on your side too who think the same way. Both are leading popular sentiments, so guess what?

No peace.

Also keep in mind that my government has an obligation to protect your country: If things get bad enough, I too could well be bleeding on the west bank.

I have one point of disagreement with you. The UN is not the unbiased entity it proclaims itself to be!

Given that the recent sham conference against racism turned into an Israel-bashing session indulged in by racist regimes, I can well understand the Palestinian's enthusism for UN intervention. And Isreal's reluctance.

I have also come to realize that Yasser Arafat is still as much of a terrorist as he ever was. He plays the role of a 'media darling' for the Western press, and engages in the occaisional charade of 'peace talks', but he does nothing to restrain the groups he purports to control. The man is not interested in a negotiated peace. He is as much a terrorist as the members of Hamas or the PFLP.

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
I have one point of disagreement with you. The UN is not the unbiased entity it proclaims itself to be!

I didn't say it was, however one side of a conflict begging for neutral observers and another resisting them usually indicates something is up. I've also made sure to point out that I think both sides are allowing extreamists to lead thereby vacuming up any "middle ground" and making compromise impossible. I think what separates today's Araffat from yesterday's is that he now knows the score. He knows his power is waning, he knows that every suicide bomber and attack upon innocent Israelis looses him valuble US support and ultemately detracts from what he's trying to accomplish. His time is running out, he knows it, and he's doing everything he can to make the most of it.

Rask: you are right in few things but we dont want the un here, because it is a proved anti israeli organization, besides we have a bad experience with the un around, when in the last year 3 soildgers were kidnaped on the lebanon border, and the un denieded for almost a year they have a video tape of this kidnaping. We dont like un here, and besides they will only see the israeli tanks and not the terrorists who are acting almost invisibly.
My final point is: the palestinian stupidity with other muslims nations support brought us to this intifada, so they cant blame us for having no country, besides maybe sharon doesnt have any plan for palestinian state, but barak did have one, which was turned down by palestinians to start their intifada, so its not sharon fault there is no peace proccess now

As I recall, this current intifada started after Sharon (who they perceive as a war criminal) visited some muslim holy sites and after two or three palistinians who worked at a bakery in Israel were beaten and photographed by border guards on their way home from work.

I'm not going to say that the intifada isn't wrong because it is wrong, but your tactics are just as inflamitory as theirs. Anyone who's seen a bar room brawl break out knows what I'm talking about- things start small and get blown way out of proportion as emotions flare. A spilled drink, smartass comment, or pass on somebody's girl friend turns into several bruised and bloody people, broken furniture, and an enormous mess. Is it right? No. Could steps have been taken by both sides to stop it? Yes.

Of course the situation we talk about here is far more complicated with different factions and groups representing both sides and persuing different objectives. Sadly, unless something changes, things will keep on as as they are until they explode. Current tactics just won't bring a solution.

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
If Israel has the right to force an Arab out of their home at gun point, an Apache indian has that same right to drive you from yours. And yes, though they left few signs of it, they were doing plenty with that land.

Hmmm . . . I think you're failing to see the comparision. Conquerors get what they conquered. That's the whole point of conquering something. Duh!

So how come the conquered can't conquer back?

If they had anything left, they could. But since they don't, they can't!

Besides, I think the Indians have gotten back at us enough with their casinos and their reservations. (Boy, was that ever a mistake . . .)

And the Palestinians, well, they've been a pain in Israel's side for the last four thousand years, ever since the birth of Ishmael. But that's a whole other story . . .

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
As I recall, this current intifada started after Sharon (who they perceive as a war criminal) visited some muslim holy sites

That's what they've been claiming for the last year since the beginning of the intifada, but the usa and our intelligence proved long time ago that the intifada was planed long time before this visit of sharon, they were just looking for a good reason to start it