A word on islam

Originally posted by Christoph
If they had anything left, they could. But since they don't, they can't!
And the Palestinians, well, they've been a pain in Israel's side for the last four thousand years, ever since the birth of Ishmael. But that's a whole other story . . .

The Isreali's and the Palastinains should practically be brothers, not one trying to constantly get the better of the other... as they both came from abraham, and the whole problem didn't start with the birth of Ishmail, it's alot more recent than that....

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-14-2001 at 03:50 PM]

Originally posted by Christoph

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
If Israel has the right to force an Arab out of their home at gun point, an Apache indian has that same right to drive you from yours. And yes, though they left few signs of it, they were doing plenty with that land.

Hmmm . . . I think you're failing to see the comparision. Conquerors get what they conquered. That's the whole point of conquering something. Duh!

I think you're trying to make excuses for hypocrocy.

"Thou shalt not steal."

Doesn't leave much wiggle room does it?

Zep: I think the Intifada had been coming to a boil long before Sharone visited those sites and those Palistinians were beaten by boarder guards. I have yet to see any evidence of planning though. Something tells me an armchair strategist such as myself who generally looses games of chess could have planned something more successful than the intifada.

Originally posted by Raskolnikov

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raskolnikov


Zep: I think the Intifada had been coming to a boil long before Sharone visited those sites and those Palistinians were beaten by boarder guards. I have yet to see any evidence of planning though. Something tells me an armchair strategist such as myself who generally looses games of chess could have planned something more successful than the intifada.

thats because the palestinians are stupid, im not saying it because im racist or something like that, they just stupid
they could have their very own state which was supposed to be 3 times bigger than israel was supposed to be, but they refused so 63 years later they will be able to fight for a much smaller piece of land...
besides they already had one itifada in 89 and it was quite successful,because the usa started to support them

i really cant believe that most ppl in here are so full of hatred....all u guyz think is we r right and the other party is not..thats very sad.WAR is a very horrible thing and the nations who r at war are all filled with emotions...and its very wrong to think that israel or palastinians are to blame...
firstly ...all the israil ppl will support there own ppl and same for the palastinians..
secondly..the actual truth about a lot of wars are never exposed...and majority of the time both sides are to blame...its wrong to think that one side is just thick or plain evil..cause most ppl in stable situations will be very reasonable and controlled..
nations at war will keep on fighting ,cause they r both highly emotional about everything..peaceful solutions have to be put forward.i know that the palestinians did not agree to a recent treaty but obviously they thought that it wasnt in thier interests..if the israel ppl are so good and palestinians are to blame for it all ,then they would have put a treaty that actually interests the palstinians.
the main point is that, both the parties are to blame cause they r stupid enough to carry on this bloody war when all there loved ones are dyin.

another point i wanted to make is that islam is a great religion, it preaches peace ..the palatinians go for suicide bombing because they dont have many altenatives...i am not saying its right ,but the fact is they r high on emotions and they dont have anything to lose..they dont really have much of an army or anything so the civilians do what they can to protect + help their ppl ..one way of lookin at the whole war situation is that both side are so hyped up on thier beliefs ,that they forgotten basic human values..its very sad if u blame one side and say that they r just evil cause they r actually in affect doin the same things...maybe in different ways but never the less both sides are killin each other..any body who has grown up might realise that human life is meant be respected.

another thing about the events of 11th september
is that the evidence against bin laden put forward,was mainly based on wat he had apparently done before,,if we look at that than AMERICA can also be the guilty party...according to past events ,,america has bombed more thatn 20 countriies since 1949....so we could just say that americans are just ppl who like showin thier power to other countries by bombing them..which is not right..so everything cannot be judged on past record and if it can then it should really apply to everyone..

another thing is that,,president bush said during a press conference that that 'he is concerned with results only'. well if his actions result in killing more innocent ppl than he is no different from bin laden..his actions are just as extreme..
the point is that a lot of ppl are pretty extreme in thier ideas and it would be unjust to only call the muslims extremists..

another fact is that the media controls ppls minds...and the ideas of a country can easily be changed to what the leaders of the country want them to think..it will be wise to see that the kind of news u get in ure locality reflects the interests of that country and it is very foolish too believe everything u see on tv.if u go to a muslim state.. undoubtebly thay will have the news which they want ppl to believe ..all countries have news which r true but there is also news that will be displayed in such a way that it suits the countries needs ..and further more no country will blame itself...the point is a lot of it is just propaganda.

EVERYONE SHOULD REMEMBER THAT HUMAN LIFE IS SACRED WHETHER ITS CHRISTIAN, JEWS OR MUSLIMS ETC

Pony: You and I are almost totally in agreement.

Zep: The people fighting today weren't alive 65 years ago, what choice did they have? None. Arafat himself was a child or teenager at the time, he had no choice either. I suspect that they turned down the idea of a Palestinian state at the time because they considered the whole of what is now Israel and The West Bank/Gaza Strip to be Palestine and their state. It seems the Brittish promised a lot and delivered little to both sides. Colonialism strikes again.

I think today's intifada happened because people are enraged and it's easy for HAMAS and other extreamist groups to stir people up. Many fragment orgainizations doing their dirty work, Arafat and the PLO trying to keep things under control (yes, I know, sometimes doing almost nothing), and the bulk of the Palestinian people covering their heads and praying for better days. That you simply lump them all into one group and slap the label of "them" on the whole lot is a bad sign.

Can I just quickly drop in a second and throw in an arab point of veiw... I Pretty much agree with pony and rask and pantera here, but I think if you look into the subject of the PLO a little more, you'll see that they are a weak group, not lazy or bone idle, they dont have control of all of the groups, and are getting teh blame for anything and everything... I think that there needs to be someone else in, cos Arafat quite simply hasn't got the Leverage (on paper or militarily) against these poeple...

Pony: why have you put assasination between speech marks? It IS assasination, whether the person deserves it or not is a wholly different matter... It's also against international law...

Originally posted by educatedfilm
Can I just quickly drop in a second and throw in an arab point of veiw... I Pretty much agree with pony and rask and pantera here, but I think if you look into the subject of the PLO a little more, you'll see that they are a weak group, not lazy or bone idle, they dont have control of all of the groups, and are getting teh blame for anything and everything... I think that there needs to be someone else in, cos Arafat quite simply hasn't got the Leverage (on paper or militarily) against these poeple...

thats is soooo right, but unfortunatley he wont let israel to do the dirty job, and now we have to deal with a weak president, and even if he will sing peace treaty the hamas and all the other terrorists wont take part in this treaty
that is why i think we shall not sign peace treaty as long as araft is the president and as long as he cant control his own people
israel's official position is quite alike, we dont negotiate with araft almost on nothing
when our troops left the palestinian cities all the arangments were with the local comanders and not with arafat

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
"Thou shalt not steal."

That from the same book that had God ordering the slaughter of innocent people and the prophet Samuel hacking up enemy kings.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
The Isreali's and the Palastinains should practically be brothers...

Yes, they should be brothers, but unfortunately, prophecy is prophecy. The sons are cursed for the sins of the father.

I am an American. I was born in Missouri. (You know, the "show me" state. Well, five years in Saudi Arabia opened my eyes to a lot. I've seen Filipino men beheaded in Dammam for rape of a Saudi Woman. I've seen women beaten by the Muttawas (religious police) for eating an apple in public; (she lifted her veil slightly). I've seen "devout" Moslems get off their knees from Prayer time, get on a plane and (as soon as we were in the air) scream at the Stewardess demanding she stand by him and pour him booze.

I've had friends arrested and jailed for six months because they had been to a party and had 1-2 homemade beers. Alcohol is illegal in Saudi, but I've been to parties at wealthy Saudi's and the bar was better stocked than most saloons here. Some of the Arabic men, both Saudi and Yemeni accepted me (a Southern Boy from America), we shared experiences and dissapointments and we were friends. Many others however, glared at me in the streets and would curse me (I speak fair Arabic and I understood each curse). Their curses showed more that they hated Americans for our perceived better lives than theirs (Like we all eat lobster constantly and drive Corvettes). Most of the curses were born of religious indifference( But hey, have you ever seen a Southern Baptist evangelist shaking the congregation down while putting fear and self righteousness into them?) ,ignorance and loathing. Even so, when an overzealous,ignorant, loathing man points a gun at me, I don't try to rationalize his religion, situation or politics, I protect myself and my family.

Perhaps someday, through education and economic improvement of the common person in the Arabic world, they will stop allowing themselves to be controlled by popular religious or political lunatics. Til then, there will be no peace.

hmmmm....I'm an arab Doug, and I'm Lybian bron and some of what you've described is very new to me... About rich poeple getting away with having a drink, well there's a word for that, It's corruption... You pay Mr Police man money to turn a blind eye, and it's not just tied to the arab world...
Women dont have to cover their faces, even Iran doesn't quite go that far... I dont know where you got this idea from... You just have to look at the way women dress when they go on Pilgramige into mecca...
Where did you go? I mean there a couple of rural town where you find the cross-eyed flea-bitten bearded "sheik", who does as you describe but it's very rare in the major cities... Some poele get upset with forigners as they some how think they've come to take thier jobs and their women, a sentiment you can find in the pig-headed morons overhere in the UK...
Pony: yep... Trust me it's not because you'r not muslim that he's having a dig at you, if you were an arab he'd probably've called you "failure, son of a failure", It's nothing to do with being muslim, It's about being a spoilt son-of-a...... and thinking that being rich makes you a better person... You should go to Egypt and see how the "Beha" treat the poorer poeple, and the same goes from Columbia....

I respect your opinion. I also believe that hatred is learned, and that the only thing that can put an end to hatred is LOVE.Therefor, I do not think that hatred is so much a "Muslim thing" as it is a condition of the heart that is the result of either somone's teaching, or as the result of a turn of events in a person's life in which they are either deprived, neglected, or otherwise mistreated in a very harmful way...
One thing I know for sure (one of the very few things I should say...) is that I can't change my past, but I sure can try and change my future for the better!
I hope all you guys have a GREAT THANKSGIVING!
Zac