A word on islam


blackrose
Senior Member
Joined: 01/25/01
Posts: 191
blackrose
Senior Member
Joined: 01/25/01
Posts: 191
11/04/2001 9:41 pm
Ever since the denouncement of Laden, I've been hearing a lot of stuff about how muslums are just like other people and hate violence. This may be true here in America but fact is in the middle east feelings aren't quite that amiable...there really is a problem with the islamic religion and factions it views as opposing to its beliefs. For example, there have been more christians killed for their beliefs in the past century than all of history before including the Roman colluseum, and a large portion of these deaths have been from *cough* muslums. To get the idea of the tragedy of this, by the time you have finished reading this at least one christian in the middle east has been killed probably by torure and anywhere from one to a dozen have been imprisoned for their beliefs. Out of the people imprisoned pretty much only torture and death are left for them unless God intervenes and manages for their release because there is no way in hell or on earth that anyone is going to do anything on their behalf except pray. I'm not trying to get all of you fired up against muslums in the name of God, but just remember that next time someone says that all people are good at heart and that in spite of our differences that we all basically have good intentions that that person is so completely and utterly clueless that words cannot describe his stupidity.
# 1
Christoph
is Super Fabulous
Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
Christoph
is Super Fabulous
Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
11/04/2001 10:07 pm
Originally posted by blackrose
. . . but just remember that next time someone says that all people are good at heart and that in spite of our differences that we all basically have good intentions that that person is so completely and utterly clueless that words cannot describe his stupidity.


I know, man. I know. I just wish more people could see it with the clarity that you have just described. Most of us, however, are just too preoccupied with not offending our enemies, with no thought to the fact that they would blow you sky high if they got the chance.

You only have to look inside a preschool classroom to see that humans are born completely corrupt. Anyone who thinks or rationalizes otherwise is, as you say, utterly clueless.
# 2
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
11/05/2001 4:52 pm
". For example, there have been more christians killed for their beliefs in the past century than all of history before including the Roman colluseum, and a large portion of these deaths have been from *cough* muslums."

no offence blackrose, but what the hell are you talking about? over the twentieth centuary there have been 6 million jews murdered by a European, 10 milion plus slaves in Siberia by an communist athiest, an over all estimated 40 million deaths during the second world war, 4 million poeple killed by Mr Pot, 1.5 million iraqi's due to Bush Snr/Clinton/ Bush Jnr.... Where do muslims figure in all of this? And are you forgetting the deaths of prodestants/ catholics due to each other?
Do your reaserch into the middle east man! You'll see it's not to do with "hateful" poeple, it's with political oppresion, poverty, suppourt of isreal, borders formed by forigeners... Come on man! The middle east has it's issues, unfortunatly the poeple in the media estimate that Jo Public's attention span is 1.5 minutes, and so stories to get "simplified", and quite coincedently it happens to be in favour of what the media has intrests in....

You'r falling into the age old trap of believing all you hear! When during the 20th centuary did christains get persecuted by muslims? The british soldiers in Sudan?...
It's very distressing to see this mindless hysteria and see poeple giving into the herd mentality and supourting this....
"are just too preoccupied with not offending our enemies"
Where were you when the president clear as day said "our war is not with islam"?

Another misconception used to gloss over the middle east issue, is that the terrorist did what they did because they "dont agree with our life style"... Why the hell hasn't Britan, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Canda etc been attacked? The answer lies within US forign policy...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-05-2001 at 11:59 AM]
# 3
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
11/05/2001 4:57 pm
"have good intentions that that person is so completely and utterly clueless that words cannot describe his stupidity."
You do that... When ever anyone offers to push your car when it wont start, will let you use their phone in an emergency, when your getting mugged and they decide to risk being beaten up or stabbed by helping you out ...
About the torture of christains... Which country are you reffering to?
There are all types of poeple being tourtured not nesicerly because of their religion, but should we only care and take notice of christians... Humans are humans regardless of their religion...
This like baseless, or based on a few incidences, tye hysteria...
About Bin laden: You do know he's pretty much arch enemies with the poeple of Iran, and the Saudi Government?
The only reason that the palastinian poeple suppourt him is that one of his main policies is "secuirity for the palastians", and they hope he'll help them out of the oppresion they're suffering...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-05-2001 at 12:14 PM]
# 4
Zeppelin
Moderator
Joined: 08/22/00
Posts: 848
Zeppelin
Moderator
Joined: 08/22/00
Posts: 848
11/05/2001 7:36 pm
Originally posted by educatedfilm

About Bin laden: You do know he's pretty much arch enemies with the poeple of Iran, and the Saudi Government?
The only reason that the palastinian poeple suppourt him is that one of his main policies is "secuirity for the palastians", and they hope he'll help them out of the oppresion they're suffering...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-05-2001 at 12:14 PM]


the palestinian officials do not support him at all, besides the guy doesnt realy give a damn about palestinian problem, let me remind you that back in 1998 when he blew up the american embassies in africa he didnt say a word about palestinian.
the reason they (muslims) hate the usa so much is the same reason that made the soviet union government to hate the west - since all their ideas on which they had based their rulles and laws proved to be wrong, and they had to blame someone- the blamed the usa, instead of saying "ok maybe we cant build a country based on religious rulles that are 1500 years old" they just blamed the usa in some stupid crusade thing
"They think im crazy..
but i know better.
It is not I who am crazy.
It is I who am mad.."

ren hoek
# 5
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
11/05/2001 10:16 pm
hmmmm...I argee with Ponyone here....
"the palestinian officials do not support him at all" Yes, you'r absoloutly right but there are a few palastinains who suppourt him, which are flashed at us by CNN now and then..

"And before Eddy retorts with Israel's attacks on Palestine, hey, if you decide that you're gonna bomb pizzerias, schools, dance clubs and town squares, I think that you kind of throw away your right to complain when a missile attack claims the life of a guy who plots bombings"

Hold on, I'm in total agreement that if you can prove in a court of law that Said person is responsible, I think they should be excuted (this goes for settlers who shoot up palastinains too)... But when an Isreali soldier kills a ten year old boy, by standing on him and hitting him in the head repeatedly with his rifle butt, and then gets SIX MONTHS!!!! That's an insult!
Sending in helicopter gunships and f-16 to bomb civilain areas is outrageous... Alot of the poeple who die had nothing to do with it (quite cosly called "collatral damage" instead of victims), the isreali intelligence just suspects... In the end more palastinains die than Isrealis wich is really what i'm on about... If it was an eye for an eye, I woulndn't be complaining, I d'd be sitting here telling you that they're both dumbasses...
I'm infact Lybian born, and I must admit, there used be alot anti-american feeling post 86 (when libya got bombed by the US and they kept on hitting residentail areas and saying "suspected terorist targets",and eventaully they hit the french embassy, and i was in Benghazi as it was getting bombed, very scary I can tell you...), but it's faded, and the poeple like alot of the other arab countries feel depressed by the fact they're all lead by dictators... They're not looking to blame the west, and they dont want war....

"here's an idea: put your f-ing guns down, quit wiring your f-ing bombs, and this time, don't start picking up stones and bricks to hurl. See what happens."

Eh? I dont get you there... The palastiains (by international law) have the right to fight occupation... The problem is what everyone calls occupation is different... Anyway, you cant be blown up just be cause some stranger two doors down is on the list... What happened to justice here?

"then how come he has to KILL non-muslims to keep immoral ways from corrupting them? "
I've not heard this... There is quote about killing american citizens, but the question it self was very dilibretly phrased so that there would be a story, as opposed to find out what's going on... I'll go into some other time... I've really got to go tobed now...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-05-2001 at 05:50 PM]
# 6
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
11/05/2001 10:43 pm
sorry to double post again...
Ben Laden doesn't speak for the arabs or muslims, however he knows how to manipulate, and introduce touchy subjects, like Isreal and america's supourt to the Saudi royal family, in to things.... Which seems to get a reaction (not neciserily good), and the fact that world super power cant get him is adding to this problem, as he'll be proclaiming it's god's will he's still alive... even though the Koran clearly states noone knows the will of god other than god him self... but there you are...
# 7
blackrose
Senior Member
Joined: 01/25/01
Posts: 191
blackrose
Senior Member
Joined: 01/25/01
Posts: 191
11/05/2001 11:00 pm
I didn't intend for this to become such a conversational post so quickly...oh well. Anyways eddy, its obvious that you know quite a bit about the middle east, but regardless of who is right in this discusion the point still stands...people are not good at heart like anne frank said...you don't need to teach a 5 year old to lie or steal other kids crayons. It doesn't matter if the kid is a christian, muslim, jew, satanist, or whatever the hell his parents raised him to be. We all suck as individuals when it comes to morals.

"When during the 20th centuary did christains get persecuted by muslims?"

the whole 20th century.

"Do your reaserch into the middle east man! You'll see it's not to do with "hateful" poeple, it's with political oppresion, poverty, suppourt of isreal, borders formed by forigeners..."

those things act rather quickly when it comes to producing hateful people. The cause and the effect are interchangeable.

"About the torture of christains... Which country are you reffering to?"

in a most literal sense every country that has a muslim-influenced government or is mostly composed of muslims and has a weak government. You go to almost any country in the middle east except Israel and say try to convert a person to christianity and I guarantee that you will be beaten into a coma within 48 hours.

Oh by the way eddy, you're not the only person I know who lives in the middle east, so don't think I'm entirely clueless, I just am about matters in Israel.


# 8
Christoph
is Super Fabulous
Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
Christoph
is Super Fabulous
Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
11/05/2001 11:25 pm

Originally posted by Zeppelin
. . . besides the guy doesnt realy give a damn about palestinian problem, let me remind you that back in 1998 when he blew up the american embassies in africa he didnt say a word about palestinian.


If old Bin gave a damn about anybody, he'd be out helping people with his millions of dollars, instead of blowing stuff up. He could really care less about the Palestinians. He just wants to use that whole issue to whip up sentiment for him.

Originally posted by blackrose
...you don't need to teach a 5 year old to lie or steal other kids crayons.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. Young children are selfish, spiteful, and devious because they haven't learned that there are negative consequences for their actions. Evil comes naturally to us, and everything else must be conditioned and taught to us by our parents and society.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
The palastiains (by international law) have the right to fight occupation...


Exactly who are they being occupied by? That's Israeli land that they're sitting on, rightfully taken by Israel thousands of years ago before the palestinians even existed as a people. By all accounts, the palestinians are occupying Israeli land, and Israel has the right to take it back by any means.
# 9
Bardsley
Moderator
Joined: 02/04/01
Posts: 731
Bardsley
Moderator
Joined: 02/04/01
Posts: 731
11/06/2001 6:37 am
I think that selfishness is natural, but I think that hate and evil are not. Hate arises through people's inability to deal with things going against their selfish desires in a positive way, or through indoctirnation, but I don't think that kids hate when they are young, just, as PonyOne mentioned, because they have no sense of the "other". As I am not a huge fan of the idea of perfect morals (I am too much of a philosophy student), I tend to see parents and other elders in a child's life to simply educate them well about the way in which others are people in the same way as they are. I am fairly utilitarian, though i have HUGE problems with many utilitarian ideas (part of the reason why moral philosophy is so interesting is the way in which people really have to take their beliefs from many different ideals), so I see it as important to think of what is least likely to cause suffering as being desirable outcomes. I'm not sure where I am going with this, but I think that selfishness is something we can deal with, and we should try to teach ways in which our selfish desires do not have to lead to hate.
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year, it's just not that widely reported".
# 10
Julius
New Member
Joined: 10/13/01
Posts: 2
Julius
New Member
Joined: 10/13/01
Posts: 2
11/06/2001 6:48 am
Well, I am from Lebanon and I am christian catholic. I have to admit that the civil war done in the 70s in Lebanon was started by foreign interference. Right now, muslims and christians are living in total harmony. And let me say that muslims are just humans like me and u, and I have a lot of muslims friends. It's the extremists that should have been kicked. There are also extremist christians (please don't say no). An extremist for his religion is someone who understands his religion on his own, someone who misunderstands it. It's not the heart of religion.

It's the media that does its own manipulation, for example, on september 11, after the dramatic act, the media showed some guys about 20 of them in palestine having a gig and shouting and dancing and stuff. While 99% of the palestinans where very sorry for this act of terror.

So please, don't send any garbage concerning the middle east. Why don't u come here and check if there's any problem?
Julius
# 11
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
11/06/2001 10:07 am
Well said Juiluis...
Blackrose: I know a couple of christian arabs on a first name basis in libya (admitidly there's not many), and they dont get shtik... Why would muslims give christains and jews shtik? They're both mention in the Koran with the upmost respect for being "the poeple of the of the book"?

Also concerning extremists, there was a settler who used to come down to the palastinain areas with out his weapons, have a freindly chat and cup of coffee with the locals and he was a Libyain jew, an arab. He'd been doing this for years, untill some moron decided he'd shoot him for being a settler, not because he'd done anything, the cafe owner tried to stop the guy by throwing a metal chair at him, but it was too late...

Christoph: I agree with your first quote utterly...
As for the third... The settlements on the west bank is a form of occupation... I dont think palastinains should go and kill them... but they have a right to resist...
"That's Israeli land that they're sitting on, rightfully taken by Israel thousands of years ago before the palestinians even existed as a people"
How the hell do you figure that? In that case the italians would be taking back most of north africa, and Europe claiming it to be theirs due to the romans, as the arabs weren't there as poeple....
Also do i remeber rightly that jews belive that the messia will come and lead them to victory, giving them Isreal ? Where is the messiah? I've also seen a few anti-Isreal demonstartions by Jews because of this principal..

I agree with most of what you've said there ponyone,
"and his dad pushed him out to run while they were already behind cover, "
????? Watch the clip, they were stranded, and they were BOTH behind cover, and they BOTH got shot crouching down... It's not this that's the main problem, it's best show by an isreali "activist" group which set up 900+ "coffins" in Tela Viv,symbolising the "intifada", the black ones were palastinain, and the white ones were Isrealis, and the poeple how've done this a pretty clever, cos all you see is this black ocean, with few white seaguls floating in their midst... My problem is that More palastinains are dying... and noone in the media totals the number during the week and then compares them!! So it goes mostly un-noticed..
# 12
Starman
New Member
Joined: 04/20/01
Posts: 15
Starman
New Member
Joined: 04/20/01
Posts: 15
11/06/2001 1:04 pm
Sorry Guys I don't mean to be rude but what has all this got to do with playing the guitar?
# 13
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
11/06/2001 1:53 pm
Nothing... But we like to get things off our chests... hope this doesn't bother you...
# 14
Christoph
is Super Fabulous
Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
Christoph
is Super Fabulous
Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
11/06/2001 5:59 pm
Originally posted by educatedfilm
How the hell do you figure that? In that case the italians would be taking back most of north africa, and Europe claiming it to be theirs due to the romans, as the arabs weren't there as poeple....


Well, if you want to look at it from a more modern perspective, you could say that Israel conquered it again in 1967. Either way, it's theirs.
# 15
blackrose
Senior Member
Joined: 01/25/01
Posts: 191
blackrose
Senior Member
Joined: 01/25/01
Posts: 191
11/06/2001 10:36 pm
"They're both mention in the Koran with the upmost respect for being "the poeple of the of the book"?"

Im not talking about the traditional muslims who are, for the most part, peaceful. Im talking about the extremists who dont give a crap what the koran says as long as they can use their own religion for their own benifit. Contrary to common belief, this group of people is not an "incredible minority" and actually makes up a large portion of the muslim population outside the US.

Oh, and for all of you people that think that how life is where you live with the christians and muslims in harmony is the way it is everywhere else...you need to keep in mind that you arent seeing the worst or anywhere near it. How I know? You all live in a place that is politically stable and economically prosperous enough that you all can afford to use the internet and do. I dont think anyone is going to argue with me on this point.

Anyways, the topic of christians vs. muslims should be ended right now because thats not what this topic is about, the natural cruely of humanity is. And of course, there is no way that im going to convince you or you convince me so its really pointless.

# 16
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
11/06/2001 10:43 pm
forive me here, but when has an officail war been decalared between Isreal and the palastinains?... It's not right to have a great asymetry in the numbers, and something needs to be done quick, as the side with the smaller number has less to lose and so is more likly to carry on, and this means it's gonna need outside intervention...
I do agree with alot of what you've said though, Including the fact that the images were old, which i posted about straight away, but i had a hard time convincing poeple...
Christoph: I'm sensing an unfair bias there...
# 17
Christoph
is Super Fabulous
Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
Christoph
is Super Fabulous
Joined: 03/06/01
Posts: 1,623
11/06/2001 10:52 pm
Originally posted by educatedfilm
It's not right to have a great asymetry in the numbers, and something needs to be done quick . . .


So you think that we should have an equal number of dead people on both sides? Now that makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:

Maybe we should have the U.N. come in and kill a bunch of Israelis to make up for the difference.


Originally posted by educatedfilm
Christoph: I'm sensing an unfair bias there...


You always sense an "unfair bias" when things don't go your way.
# 18
sherif
New Member
Joined: 11/02/01
Posts: 1
sherif
New Member
Joined: 11/02/01
Posts: 1
11/07/2001 8:00 am
well ... hi everybody !! all i wanted to say is that u shouldn't judje people by their looks or appearence !!! right ??? onething .. I SHOULD THANK ALL THE PPL THAT SWEARED AT MUSLEMS in a bad way .. actually .. i won't be that low to reply them back !! coz i think Muslems are better than others in forgiving mistakes !! that doesn't mean that Christians are bad .. i have too many friends who are Christians !! and by the way my gf is chrristian .. but there is something which is really good bout it !! I do respect so much !! there should be some respect between me and her ... even if war does exist .. violence won't solve it ... but the main point comes .. am not taking any one's side when i say the Ben-Laden has nothing to do with what has happened to America !! but in my school ( I do study in the Universal American School of Kuwait ) i found out that young children who don't know where does the story start from accuse Ben-Laden .. well ,, all i know is that if there is one good enough reason that shows the BEN-LADEN was behind this ... i should aid America to get him !!!
but the pro. no evidence !! it's just suspecious !!! but leeme tell you ppl that 9 of my teachers in the school think that what happened in the 11th of september was done by AMERICANS !! not muslims .. The other thing is that it's totally UNFAIR to kill PALASTENIAN CHILDREN and TAKE A FULL CONTROL OVER THE LAND !! is that what u call it peace .. actually .. it's not .. so don't blame muslims to defend or to react violently with that !! u should all understand that we don't hate people .. just leave us the hell alone .. and we don't need anything !! that's all .. and sorry for disturbing !! THANX BLACKROSE !!!

Sherif

Sherif
# 19
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
educatedfilm
Registered User
Joined: 08/10/01
Posts: 882
11/07/2001 2:47 pm
If you even out the number both sides will be more commited as each side will see the have as much to lose as the other, and yes i do think it needs to stop, but I think expecting it anytime soon is wishful thinking... Evening out the numbers means reducing the deaths, not putting them up!
"Maybe we should have the U.N. come in and kill a bunch of Israelis to make up for the difference. "
Or we could do the sensible thing, and let the un in to investigate Isreal's use of force, which has bluntly been rejected by the current government... Evening out the numbers means making mossad and the Isreali soldier's less heavy handed, and making them do some investigations , as opposed to planting bombs on suspects cars/ phones etc.
I dont think this'll happen under sharon though...
Christoph : Your standing up for Isreal for things which go beyond reason, there were a million plus arabs there, and that's documented... yes there was a large number (no where near all) were bought, but i defy you to buy a ranch in the US and try to set up your own country, you'll have the military on your door step the next morning, because it's wrong...
# 20

Please register with a free account to post on the forum.