Modes from a different view


ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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04/29/2010 6:20 pm
Originally Posted by: JOHN JAUNESEway too many questions...[/quote]
Fair enough. Let's tackle one at a time.

Why do you say the harmonic minor scale has no system of modes?
Originally Posted by: JOHN JAUNESEI suggest the following readings for starters.[/quote]
Yes, I've read those & other similiar works.

I don't remember any of them referring to harmonic minor as The Classical Scale or the King Of Tonality. Or reading that harmonic minor has no modes. But I simply might not remember it correctly. Is that info in one of those books?
[QUOTE=JOHN JAUNESE]
The Melodic Minor was created to smooth out the vocal lines in choir music, as the Aug 2nd was not pleasant for vocal arrangements. I think it was Mozart who spear headed that effort.

I am aware of the origins of melodic minor. I was asking why you singled out only the harmonic minor scale when melodic minor and others are just as widely used in classical music.

Since JS Bach & GF Handel were brilliantly incorporating melodic minor into their choral works over 30 years before Mozart was born I think you might be mistaken on that. Although, Mozart also brilliantly used all the scales at his disposal!
[QUOTE=JOHN JAUNESE]
I was simply trying to participate in a thread, and this person is out of control.

I am simply participating in this thread also. I am not "out of control".

There is no need for moderators. I am only asking honest questions based on your claims. There was no insult intended in my post. I am sorry if you took it that way. I am only trying to make sure the GT Music Theory forum has accurate info.

All good? :)
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Razbo
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04/29/2010 6:48 pm
Yay, drama! ;D JK! FWIW I thought Chris's comments were on point and ended with a fine compliment. I support his participation in the thread and personally like to see him challenged by one as knowledgeable as Mr. JAUNESE. It's refreshing to see points of theory debated from time to time.
...so ever since then, I always hang on to the buckle.
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JOHN JAUNESE
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JOHN JAUNESE
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04/29/2010 8:03 pm
Originally Posted by: CSchlegel
Why do you say the harmonic minor scale has no system of modes?

Yes, I've read those & other similiar works.


The Harmonic Minor is a single mode scale based off of the "aolian" mode. Although I have heard some pretty good uses of the "Flaminco scale" (based off of the phrygian).

You say you read everything and then some, but you seem to be confusing "modes" with "positions". I played all seven positions of the Harmonic minor in the video, and you called them modes? You see, all seven positions are of the same mode. Why are you calling each of the positions of the Harmonic minor scale a mode?
# 3
ChristopherSchlegel
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04/29/2010 9:15 pm
Originally Posted by: JOHN JAUNESEThe Harmonic Minor is a single mode scale based off of the "aolian" mode.[/quote]
The Modes of the Harmonic Minor Scale:

1 Harmonic Minor
2 Locrian Natural 6
3 Ionian Augmented (Sharp 5)
4 Dorian Sharp 4 (AKA Romanian Minor, Ukranian Minor)
5 Phrygian Dominant
6 Lydian Sharp 2
7 Ultra Locrian (AKA Super Locrian Diminished)

http://docs.solfege.org:81/3.14/C/scales/har.html

The harmonic minor scale is indeed an altered form of the natural minor scale (aeolian). And we can make modes with it just like any other scale. We simply give each note of the scale a chance to start the sequence of notes and we are on our way.

This page names the modes of both melodic minor & harmonic minor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode#Other_types

This page shows the modes of harmonic minor, their typical names, and fretboard patterns:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25388105/Harmonic-Minor-With-Modal-Spellings-and-Chord-Scales

Clearly the harmonic minor scale has modes.
[QUOTE=JOHN JAUNESE]
You say you read everything and then some, but you seem to be confusing "modes" with "positions". I played all seven positions of the Harmonic minor in the video, and you called them modes? You see, all seven positions are of the same mode. Why are you calling each of the positions of the Harmonic minor scale a mode?

While it is sometimes useful to use the word position to refer to a fretboard grouping (as this page does) it can be misleading because the word has another specific meaning in the context of guitar playing.

Specifically, it can refer to the lowest fret being used in any given musical passage. I've run into the problem myself when teaching & think it is important to make the distinction for students so they don't get confused.

"In common with other classical stringed instruments, classical guitar playing and notation use formal positions of the left hand. The 'nth position' means that the hand is positioned with the first finger over the nth fret."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_guitar_technique

I picked that page with the fretboard patterns labelled as position precisely because it does what you did by using the words position to be equated with mode. For example, in the video you are playing your first scale pattern with the second fret as the lowest fingered position. This leads to the possible confusion of telling a student:

Now play the first position (really the first "pattern" or mode) of the scale at the second position. Start the second position (really the second "pattern" or mode) at the fourth position.

Then if you change keys you've got another confusing set of instructions that conflicts with the first set!

So I think it is less confusing for students if instructors reserve the word position specifically for the lowest fingered fret in any given pattern.

Play the first pattern or mode at the second position (fret), play the second pattern or mode at the fourth fret. And so on.

Make sense?! :)

Don't get me wrong, I've made the same mistake plenty of times, so I am also trying to be on guard against it. Learning the guitar can be confusing & complex enough without the student having to parse conflicting instructor info.

I am assuming you are a guitar instructor or at least are trying to get people to view your instructional material. And you are welcome to post here. But, since I am an instructor here I want to make sure this forum contains accurate info. That is why I am making these points. I am not trying to "start an argument" with you, or "pick on you without reason".

I am sincerely & honestly concerned with being accurate and presenting truthful info about music theory here. I can only assume you have similiar goals. Otherwise why would you be posting here, right?

And FWIW, I did compliment your playing because I think it is outstanding technique! :)
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JOHN JAUNESE
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JOHN JAUNESE
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04/29/2010 10:47 pm
Let me explain,
When I say the Harmonic minor only has one mode, what I am saying is, there is only one "USEFUL" mode.
Can you honestly tell your students that you write songs in the Super Locrian Diminished mode and say with a strait face that your tonality is centered around that mode? I mean technically any one of the modes could be incorporated, but it is the tonality that I am referring to as true tonal center is concerned.
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Lordathestrings
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Lordathestrings
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04/29/2010 11:57 pm
Gentlemen;

Please be a little more temperate in your responses.

Passion in music is a requirement.

Discussion of theory needs to be kept civil.
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ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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04/30/2010 1:17 am
Originally Posted by: LordathestringsGentlemen;

Please be a little more temperate in your responses.

Yes, sir. Understood.
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ChristopherSchlegel
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04/30/2010 1:41 am
Originally Posted by: JOHN JAUNESEWhen I say the Harmonic minor only has one mode, what I am saying is, there is only one "USEFUL" mode.[/quote]
OK, so you agree it has modes, but you do not find it useful to think of them as modes, but instead one scale with different patterns/positions. Is that accurate?
Originally Posted by: JOHN JAUNESE
Can you honestly tell your students that you write songs in the Super Locrian Diminished mode and say with a strait face that your tonality is centered around that mode?

As a student in jazz & classical I was expected to know, be able to play, use & compose with all of them. As an instructor I only teach that sort of advanced thing to people with an appropriately advanced interest.

Phrygian dominant (the fifth mode of harmonic minor) is in particular widely used in popular music. Everything from Malmsteen to Metallica to Mario Bros background music. And of course a lot of classical & romantic music.

I frequently use the modes of harmonic minor & melodic minor as a way of outlining or soloing over ii-V-i changes in jazz standards. Of course, it doesn't really matter how many people use them or not. My main point is that they exist, we can identify them.
[QUOTE=JOHN JAUNESE]I mean technically any one of the modes could be incorporated, but it is the tonality that I am referring to as true tonal center is concerned.

Sure, modal and tonal are two different things. Modal playing doesn't necessarily have to contain a candence, a leading tone with a tonal resolution. Tonal playing does. Harmonic minor & melodic minor exist as a means of altering the natural minor scale in order to achieve tonality from the natural minor scale.

But the major scale is the primary source of tonal playing. Harmonic & melodic minor are derived from the relative minor. And as mentioned before, one can always alter any given mode to contain a leading tone if desired.

It seems the primary disagreement here is that you started by claiming harmonic minor does not have modes. It is true you don't have to refer to them, you can just play the scale & say, "I'm just playing one scale, but sequencing it differently by starting on each note in turn."

But in essence, that is precisely what a mode is.

Now it seems you agree harmonic minor does have modes, but you do not find them useful. Is that accurate? :)
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04/30/2010 1:43 am
Guys, let's cool it with the bickering, please. This is a valid thread and we don't want all this mud hurling, or I'll have to pull it.
:cool:
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JOHN JAUNESE
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05/02/2010 3:51 pm
Yes, I agree.
There is no absolutes in music, there are so many variables. Those who think they know everything, really don't understand the concepts. I have been playing guitar for 33 years and the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. For any theory has exceptions, or could be proven wrong. For example there are a few modes that I find useless, and yet another has written a magnificent piece of music or passage using it. So when I make a statement that there is only one useful mode in the Harmonic minor, I am speaking in broad terms, not condemning those who defy the odds, and actually find the use of such modes. I know some Jazz players that say they in in this mode then that mode and what have you, and they are not....

I put this together for Guitar tricks news letter about 7 years ago...it kind of explains my thinking on modes:

The system of modes is one of the most misunderstood,
and mis taught area of practical theory. The most
common misconception is that the "modes are just
different starting points of the Major scale". Which
is completely misleading. Truth is, each of the seven
modes is a scale unto itself. That's it! Just like any
other scale, each mode has it's own tonic, or root.
The only difference between the modes is the degree of
tonality. It's impossible for me to make a short
history report of the modes, so this article will be
kind of crude, and to the point. Hope you enjoy it.

Other than the seven tone Diatonic scale created by
the Greek mathematician Pythagoras in 550 B.C. The
first usage, and writings about the "musical modes"
was approximately 350 B.C. That is when the philosophy
writings of Plato, and Aristotle included large
sections that describe the affect of the different
musical modes on mood, and on character formation.

In Aristotle's "politics" he says that the Mixolydian
mode can make you sad, and grave. The Dorian mode
settles the mind, and is gravest, and
manliest, and avoids extremes. The phrygian mode
inspires enthusiasm, and is exiting, and emotional,
and the best for expressing "Bacchic fury". The
relaxed modes are the lydian, and Ionian which make
people stupid.

Plato identified the Lydian, and Mixolydian as being
for Maudlin drinking songs. He called the Ionian
relaxing, the Dorian the real Greek mode, and said it
creates a feeling of sincerity. Plato also stated
that the Dorian would remain legal for use in war, and
crisis. The phrygian for peace, dignity, temperance,
and worship. Plato wanted to have government control
using the modes, and did not allow a multiplicity of
notes, and instruments were only tuned to approved
modes. Modes of the Plato Aristotle Era were numbered
mode 1, mode 2, and so on.

Four hundred years later (50 A.D.) the Christians
begin using the modes in worship. Different modes were
used at different times for parts of their services.
In 520 A.D. Manlius Boethius, an Italian philosopher,
translated Aristotle's on logic into latin. Boethius
embraced Arisotle's concept of mood creation, and
character formation using the modes, and what was now
called "the church modes" were matched up against
ancient Greek modes for ascribed meanings, which were
then used for church services.

In 600 A.D. Pope Gregory the Ist, classified all the
music used in the church. While it is likely that
Gregory knew of Boethius assignment of ancient Greek
names to the modes used for church music. The church
continued to use the numbered system. It was not until
about 900 A.D. that other authors began to apply
Boethius's ancient Greek names to the medieval church
modes.

The later Middle Ages, or Gothic Era, which lasted
from 1150 to 1450, saw the rise of music with multiple
voices called "polyphonic music". Trouble in the
church gave rise to non-religious music. Towards the
end of the Gothic Era, the character of music changed.
Composers began to use imitative techniques, together
with harmonies crafted from thirds, and sixths.

The Renaissance (1450-1600) is thought to be a "period
of awakening", and music continued to evolve.
Instrumental music became an art form. The church
modes now consisted of eight modes, evenly split
authentic, and plagal modes of the "Gregorian Chant".
They consisted of the Dorian(authentic),
HypoDorian(plagal), Phrygian(authentic),
HypoPhrygian(plagal), Lydian(authentic),
HypoLydian(plagal), Mixolydian(authentic), and the
HypoMixolydian (plagal). All of the Medieval church
music was based on the HypoLydian mode which is known
today as the Ionian or natural major scale. The other
seven modes were used for meditative chant, and to
tell sad stories. It wasn't until the 16th century
that the Aoelian, HypoAoelian, Ionian, and HypoIonian
were added to the modes. The sixthteenth century is
known as the "golden age of polyphony" because of the
emergence of the polyphonic (vocal) music. There was
now a definite tendency toward major, and minor, which
system formulated after 1600.

In roughly 1675, the modes were considered to be
permutations of the Ionian, and Aoelian, which the
Western Major/Minor scale system was based. That's
when the modes became familiarized into what we know,
and use today. The Greek names became convenient
labels for particular scales. Although the Locrian
mode was not used much at all prior to this, the
Locrian was incorporated into the modal system. Many
books talk about the ancient modal system, and do not
acknowledge this black sheep mode, except to say "it
was not used because of it's diminished 5th", and
nothing more is said. The Locrian was only a
theoretical possibility till this time in history.

Although it took several hundred years to move from
polyphonic music to
the homophonic idea of the major-minor scale system,
centuries were needed to move from open fifths,
fourths, and octaves to emphasis on the thirds, and
sixths. Melody became asymmetrical, tonality moved to
polytonality, and the twelve-tone system, and serial
technique were invented.

The names of all the modes in this new system became
commonly known as the Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian,
Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian. Although
seven modes still exist up to this time, only the
Major(Ionian), and Minor(Aeolian) are considered
suitable for Western Music. The composition of
polyphonic vocal music put the church modes under the
impact of standardization. The major and minor modes
were the only modes thought to be capable of exerting
a tonic function.

The Ionian mode is very effective at producing a
strong tonic function. The Aeolian is often used as
the final in a deceptive cadence. It brings
resolution, but the feeling is still there that a full
resolution has not occurred, and that the only way to
achieve this is by the arrival of the Ionian. Thus the
tendency of the Diatonic is toward the Ionian, rather
than the aeolian mode. So once we are in the Aeolian
it is quite natural to drift back to the Ionian.

The Aeolian mode is generally avoided in common
practice classical music, because it's cadence is less
decisive than the Harmonic Minor scale's. But the
softer, and more relaxed sound of the Aeolian
tonality, has been used by many twentieth century
composers. The Aeolian is also found in modern pop,
and dance music. The Harmonic minor is well known in
classical music, because it is the harmonic foundation
of minor mode music. It's tonality is very powerful,
and unambiguous. There are seven modes of the Harmonic
minor just as with the Diatonic, but none of the modes
in the Harmonic minor have common names, and it is
only the Harmonic minor (in it's Aeolian form) that is
tonally effective. The tonality of the Melodic minor
is even weaker than that of the Aeolian. However the
two modes of the Melodic scale (ascending melodic
minor, and the descending melodic major scale) can
both be considered "melodic improvements to the
Harmonic minor. Classical composers have still mostly
ignored the Melodic major.

Well what about the other five Diatonic modes? And why
do people still choose to use them in spite of the
Major/Minor system? Well, Jazz players like to use the
Dorian to improvise on minor seventh chords, oh, and
"Thriller by Michael Jackson is in the Dorian mode.
Play this scale over a min7, or min6th(13) chord. And
it sounds very good. Jazz players use the Mixolydian
scale to improvise on Dom 7 chords. The Mixolydian is
very major sounding until you get to the seventh
degree. Use 7th or Dom 7 chords when playing in the
Mixolydian. The Lydian mode is difficult to use for a
melody, unless you only use the sub dominant as a
leading tone for the dominant. Bartok wrote a short
piece in the Lydian mode. I read once that the theme
to the "Simpson's" theme was made with the Lydian mode
in mind. Play the Lydian over Maj7, or Maj7(#11)
chords. As for the Locrian, we referred to as the
"black sheep" mode earlier. The dead-center position
of the dominant make this mode very unmusical. I read
that not one folk song in the Locrian mode had ever
been documented by an ethnomusicologist. But without
this mode the symmetry of the Major/Minor system would
be destroyed. Play the Locrian over a min7flat 5
chord. Next, and last, we have the Phrygian mode,
which has been called the Flamenco mode, because of
it's Spanish sound. Modern artists like Al DiMiola,
and Ritchie Blackmore(Gates of Babylon) use this very
special sounding scale. This scale works best when
played over a suspended 4th chord, or Dom 7(sus4)
chords.

So it seems we have not completely banned these five
modes from The Major/Minor system. They are open for
experimentation by anyone. However the Major/Minor
system has changed music forever. It has made us less
modal, as the use of chromatic notes increased to
facilitate the advent of equal temperament.

Resources for this writing was inspired by "A History
of Western Music" 5th edition, chapters 1,2,3." Groves
New Dictionary of Musicians" modes and scales
section."A General History of Music From The Earliest
Ages To The Present""History of the Church Modes" by
Larry Mysz
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Joe Pinnavaia
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11/06/2010 3:42 am
Modes are a tough subject no doubt. Liked the article above about modes - very nice.
I teach my students the modes in major and minor and then once they are used to those fingerings I teach them how to link positions together and expand the entire fretboard to use the whole scale. Focusing on certain positions will give you a certain effect in relation of melody to harmony but most students starting out don't really want to focus on it that much. They just want to play. Also notes repeat over the fretboard so I try to make it stupid simple for my students to put to use the scale they are working on in a musical situation. So really I try to look at the fretboard as a whole and not chunks. It's more about being free with it than using certain modes over certain scales.

A sample from my tutorial on Modes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Xj-xGpLhw

Joe Pinnavaia
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William Wolfe
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12/04/2010 4:35 pm
My favorite mode is the IOMMIAN MODE. It's very useful in blues, rock and metal styles and it's quite dark and depressing in mood. A heavy vibrato technique and proper use of power chords are key. It can be a bit painful to master, as you have to cut off your fingers to play it properly. :)
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Jerry Dylan
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Jerry Dylan
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02/26/2011 12:58 am
I finally understand modes whenever my playing is a little stale all i have to do is come back here and try a mode.Dorian sounds great as does the phrgian mode and for blues i throw in Ionian or mixolydian thanks.
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JonChorba
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JonChorba
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03/03/2011 2:39 am
Originally Posted by: William WolfeMy favorite mode is the IOMMIAN MODE. It's very useful in blues, rock and metal styles and it's quite dark and depressing in mood. A heavy vibrato technique and proper use of power chords are key. It can be a bit painful to master, as you have to cut off your fingers to play it properly. :)


lol. nice:)
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Ben Lindholm
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03/19/2011 9:58 am
Originally Posted by: JOHN JAUNESE
I put this together for Guitar tricks news letter about 7 years ago...it kind of explains my thinking on modes: ARTICLE...


Great article! I really enjoyed reading it!
# 15
JOHN JAUNESE
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JOHN JAUNESE
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06/28/2011 6:02 pm
Originally Posted by: Ben LindholmGreat article! I really enjoyed reading it!


I had allot of source material to borrow from, thanks :D
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JOHN JAUNESE
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JOHN JAUNESE
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06/28/2011 6:20 pm
It has come to my attention some evidence that what we refer to as the Ionian mode (major scale), has been used for over 6000 years. Recently, references from ancient Sumerian Text have revealed. 20,000 clay tablets with such references to Music, Medicine, and other. These Sumarian writers also explain, that they recieved this knowledge from the Annunaki. Which translates to "from the heavens they came", which may indicate an advanced race of beings with the Music teachings. truth is stranger than fiction, in this case.
# 17
Sgt Tee
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Sgt Tee
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07/04/2011 12:07 am
Let us not forget, Playing guitar is fun!
For What It's Worth
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Paul Moliukov
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Paul Moliukov
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07/28/2011 7:37 am
Hi guys,

Just checked out this thread and found it awesome...
I personally use my own approach while learning and practicing scales. I associate a certain color of rainbow to each scale (ionian - red, lydian - orange etc) and tie scales with related chords (Xmaj7 comes from ionian and lydian, X7 from mixo, Xm dim7 from locrian, Xm7 from frygian, dorian, aeolian). Pretty cool for memorizing the emotional shade and harmonic relationship for each scale:)
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greyghoast17
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greyghoast17
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08/11/2011 3:59 am
Ok this may be a question that has been beat to death but it's where I'm at musically. There are 7 basic notes or key's A B C D E F G (not counting sharps or flats). It seems to me that most rock, pop or metal songs are in either a major or a minor key. Taking the lesson available at guitar tricks on modes, which is in A Major and learning the modes in the key of A down the fretboard- Ionian, Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian, ect...how do I learn and memorize all those different modal finger patterns in all keys both major and minor? is it simply hammering it out and repetition one key at a time like the lesson in A major. At some point does "hearing the sound" of the notes played in a different order over and over, is that the trick. There are so many different finger patterns for each key and mode down the fretboard, Major and Minor. Is it memorization or hearing the sound? this is my obstacle now. If there are any lessons hear at guitar tricks that one suggest's I will check them out. But I do have some saved and bookmarked already. Any suggestions?
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