Modes from a different view

Originally Posted by: Byron MarksI've been playing for quite a while now but am still wondering how to really use the modes and what chord to play certain modes over. I feel kinda stupid about it but for some reason, I never put it together....

Well, this is how it works out... as you probably know, chords have formulas, such as, 1 3 5, 1 b3 5, etc. These are very valuable to know because, the modes also have their formulas. Ionian is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, so this would work over a major chord, which is 1 3 5. Dorian is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7, so, with the b3, it will work over minor chords (1 b3 5) I won't go into the other ones, because I'm not too up on the chord formulas myself, but you get the idea. Just match the formulas, and that's how it works. It's basically just memorization, unless someone knows of certain jedi mind tricks to aid the theoretically challenged such as I.

Originally Posted by: WeslabaWell, this is how it works out... as you probably know, chords have formulas, such as, 1 3 5, 1 b3 5, etc. These are very valuable to know because, the modes also have their formulas. Ionian is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, so this would work over a major chord, which is 1 3 5. Dorian is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7, so, with the b3, it will work over minor chords (1 b3 5) I won't go into the other ones, because I'm not too up on the chord formulas myself, but you get the idea. Just match the formulas, and that's how it works. It's basically just memorization, unless someone knows of certain jedi mind tricks to aid the theoretically challenged such as I.

For the sake of being politically correct in this thread;
Dorian is 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
1-2-b3-4-5-6-7 would be the Melodic minor (Ascending).
Hope that helps................

hey hey.. so I was really confused about modes this morning. I thought may be I had completely misunderstood modes for about 15 minutes. It's because I watched some thing on YouTube by Satch showing all the modes. and then something clicked and I realised there is two ways to think about modes.

#1: The modes of the Major scale.
#2: The modes of a Key.

May be there is a better way to say the 2nd form, I'll explain what I mean. In the first method, which is the usual method of looking at modes.. you have 7 unique starting notes of the same scale of notes. In the second method, you have 7 scales of notes starting with the same root note.

If I played through all the modes of the C Major scale, the first method, then the Dorian mode would actually be called D Dorian.. it's a D Minor scale with a raised 6th (or something).. but it is still just the C Major scale starting on the second note, the D. The next mode, E Phrygian is really like an E minor with a raised something but still just the C Major scale starting on the third note, the E.. so that got me thinking..

If I grab all the same starting notes.. eg. E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian etc.. then I am no longer playing the E Major scale when I play E Phrygian.. I am now playing the C Major scale, starting on the E/third/phrygian note. So if I play an open bottom-E string, then play through each of the modes for E, using the second method of thinking.. I get 7 modes of the Key of E... which are the ones I actually want.. because they are the usable ones.. It makes complete sense now.

Originally Posted by: light487hey hey.. so I was really confused about modes this morning. I thought may be I had completely misunderstood modes for about 15 minutes. It's because I watched some thing on YouTube by Satch showing all the modes. and then something clicked and I realised there is two ways to think about modes.

#1: The modes of the Major scale.
#2: The modes of a Key.

May be there is a better way to say the 2nd form, I'll explain what I mean. In the first method, which is the usual method of looking at modes.. you have 7 unique starting notes of the same scale of notes. In the second method, you have 7 scales of notes starting with the same root note.

If I played through all the modes of the C Major scale, the first method, then the Dorian mode would actually be called D Dorian.. it's a D Minor scale with a raised 6th (or something).. but it is still just the C Major scale starting on the second note, the D. The next mode, E Phrygian is really like an E minor with a raised something but still just the C Major scale starting on the third note, the E.. so that got me thinking..

If I grab all the same starting notes.. eg. E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian etc.. then I am no longer playing the E Major scale when I play E Phrygian.. I am now playing the C Major scale, starting on the E/third/phrygian note. So if I play an open bottom-E string, then play through each of the modes for E, using the second method of thinking.. I get 7 modes of the Key of E... which are the ones I actually want.. because they are the usable ones.. It makes complete sense now.

Using the same root note (E as example) in each scale, mode, etc..... does not make them all fit into the Key Of E.
The Key of E contains the notes; E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#
The E Phrygian Mode has notes; E-F-G-A-B-C-D
The E Dorian Mode has notes: E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D
All have different functions. They can be used for an emphasis to something.
They are Parallel scales.
By trying to separate the thought of looking at E Phrygian as just Starting the C Major scale from it's third note, I'm going to scramble these notes up in no apparent order to and see if it makes sense.

D-B-F-A-C-G-E......Does this look like the C Major Scale???? now Another,
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#....How about this one???? Why not? they both have C in them........
The fact is that the only way to create a Major scale is by the Intervals following the Root; = R-W-W-h-W-W-W-h.......
So C Major looks like this;... C-D-E-F-G-A-B......
Now let's look at it this way; A-B-C-D-E-F-G......
That's not the C Major Scale, It's the A natural minor scale (Aeolian Mode)
The Intervals are different and the C note has become a minor 3rd.
Every mode including the Aeolian mode has a different interval pattern which changes each notes function.
So, if you play a progression in D Dorian for example, it's Dorian...........

May be I explained that badly in my excitement..

C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phyrigian, F Lydian, G Mixolidian, A Aeolian, B Locrian (forgive spelling mistakes).. all share the same notes of the C Major Scale. To play F Lydian, I take all the same notes and order of the C Major scale and play it with the F as the start.. so.. F G A B C D E and back to F again. There are no sharps or flats in the C Major scale.

Now let's look at it like this: E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian, E Lydian, E Mixolidian, E Aeolian, E Locrian. Each mode here is based on a different major scale. E Ionian is the E Major scale starting on the E. E Dorian is all the notes of the D Major scale starting from the 2nd note or E.

E Ionian Mode (E Major Scale)
E F# G# A B C# D#

E Dorian (D Major Scale)
E F# G A B C# D

E Phrygian (C Major Scale)
E F G A B C D

and so on..

(EDIT: Just to clarify a little further.. the E Dorian in relation to the key of E is I-II-iii-IV-V-VI-VII.. so it's an E Major scale with a minor 3rd)

now.. play all these through while you have a E bass note sounding as a guide, so that the relative major scale doesn't confuse you.

Did that make more sense that time?

Originally Posted by: dvenetianD-B-F-A-C-G-E......Does this look like the C Major Scale???? now Another,
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#....How about this one???? Why not? they both have C in them.........

The first is the D Lydian, the second is the G Ionian/Major-Scale. I understand that bit.. I'm just trying to take all this theory and apply it.. which is the next step.

Originally Posted by: light487May be I explained that badly in my excitement..

C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phyrigian, F Lydian, G Mixolidian, A Aeolian, B Locrian (forgive spelling mistakes).. all share the same notes of the C Major Scale. To play F Lydian, I take all the same notes and order of the C Major scale and play it with the F as the start.. so.. F G A B C D E and back to F again. There are no sharps or flats in the C Major scale.

Now let's look at it like this: E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian, E Lydian, E Mixolidian, E Aeolian, E Locrian. Each mode here is based on a different major scale. E Ionian is the E Major scale starting on the E. E Dorian is all the notes of the D Major scale starting from the 2nd note or E.

E Ionian Mode (E Major Scale)
E F# G# A B C# D#

E Dorian (D Major Scale)
E F# G A B C# D

E Phrygian (C Major Scale)
E F G A B C D

and so on..

(EDIT: Just to clarify a little further.. the E Dorian in relation to the key of E is I-II-iii-IV-V-VI-VII.. so it's an E Major scale with a minor 3rd)

now.. play all these through while you have a E bass note sounding as a guide, so that the relative major scale doesn't confuse you.

Did that make more sense that time?

Sorry light, maybe it was my fault in not explaining the theory clearly.
Maybe I can help better if you could explain how you arrived with the relation between E Dorian and the Key of E, to start from.
Let me know if I can help.

Originally Posted by: light487The first is the D Lydian, the second is the G Ionian/Major-Scale. I understand that bit.. I'm just trying to take all this theory and apply it.. which is the next step.

Same here with explaining D lydian.......The G Ionian/Major scale part is Correct.
I'm happy to help if I can.

Originally Posted by: light487Now let's look at it like this: E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian, E Lydian, E Mixolidian, E Aeolian, E Locrian. Each mode here is based on a different major scale.[/quote]
Good identification.

Originally Posted by: light487(EDIT: Just to clarify a little further.. the E Dorian in relation to the key of E is I-II-iii-IV-V-VI-VII.. so it's an E Major scale with a minor 3rd)

Two problems here.

1. In music Roman numerals are typically used to represent chord functions and not scale degrees. If you are trying to represent scale degrees say, "root, major 2nd, minor 3rd ..." and so on. Otherwise it gets confusing.

2. E dorian is essentially an E major scale with a minor 3rd and a minor 7th.

This is a good way of looking at the modes, though: how they differ from unaltered major and, or minor. From this perspective though, I'd say that the minor 3rd is the most crucial "hinge". So I would say that dorian is natural minor (aeolian) with a major 6th.
[QUOTE=light487]now.. play all these through while you have a E bass note sounding as a guide, so that the relative major scale doesn't confuse you.

This is exactly one type of approach that some players use it order to switch modes in the same solo. From Van Halen to John McLaughlin, these guys will make sure that the other instruments (bass, keys, etc.) are only playing a limited amount of notes that do not interfere with the switching of modes.

So if the bassist is only playing an E, D and B, then the guitarist can effectively switch between E dorian, E phrygian, E mixolydian, E aeolian at will.

This is an example of ornamental use of modes.

Suppose a song is in the key of E major and the melody or solo line uses E ionian. Then the melody or solo line switches to E lydian, that implies a modulation to the key of B major. Then the chords actually change to the key of B major and the melody or solo line uses B ionian.

This is a frequent technique of classical guys like Beethoven, Haydn & Mozart (maybe you've heard of them? :) ) that can be found in any one of their works from piano sonatas to symphonies.

This is an example of structural use of modes.

playing the modes diatonically (C major = C inonian , D minor = D dorian , E minor = E phrygian , F major = F lydian, G 7th = G mixolydian , A minor = A aeolian , B min7th flat 5th = B locrian) is a (sensible) way to LEARN? how they make sense but to get the true flavor of each mode , I do believe the best route to take is to play each mode from one singular root note to notice how each scale changes in flavor... IN THE KEY OF G play each mode from the ROOT OF "G" third fret low E string... also to make it more interesting as you go you can find certain other keys that relate to each mode for ex : G ionian from it's 6th = E aeolian... or G phrygian from it's 4th = C aeolian... or more obscure ones such as G ionain from it's 4th = C lydian... in doing this you'll map the whole neck together quite nicely I think... ask yourself these questions and you'll be playing in more unfamiliar territory, which is really good for any competent guitarist...

for ex : G ionian (G , A , B , C , D , E , F#) major
G dorian (G , A , Bb , C , D , E , F) minor

: quiz yourself w/ random notes outta these modes
what mode will you get if you start the G dorian mode from it's Bb 3rd tone?
the answer is "Bb lydian"... see how it works...??? questions comments ?

G phrygian (G , Ab , A# , C , D , Eb , F) minor
G lydian (G , A , B , C# , D , E , F#) major
:
this is a good method for learning spaces on the use the least
what mode do you get if you begin playing from the C#4th of G lydian ? the answer is "C# locrian"... do this over and over , use the most obscure notes you can possibly come up with and then you'll master the whole fretboard...

G mixolydian (G , A , B , C , D , E , F) dominant 7th
G aeolian (G , A , Bb , C , D , Eb , F) natural minor
G locrian (G , Ab , A# , C , C# , Eb , F) min 7th flat 5th

Franky M.

I study Modes from both a derivative and Parallel function, but the parallel really allows hearing the Interval function harmonically and melodically.
Being that there's no set order to Parallel Modes, I like to occasionally put them in order from Bright to the darker sounding Modes.
Using G as the Root, starting with Lydian.

Lydian == G----A----B----C#----D----E----F#
Ionian == G----A----B----C-----D----E----F#
Mixo---== G----A----B----C-----D----E----F
Dorian ===G----A----Bb---C-----D----E----F
Aeolian--= G----A----Bb---C-----D---Eb----F
Phrygian = G----Ab---Bb---C-----D---Eb----F
Locrian--= G----Ab---Bb---C-----Db--Eb----F

In this order, each mode only changes by one Interval from the previous mode. It's interesting to note that the only difference between G Phrygian and G Locrian is Db (b5th interval).
Memorizing patterns and the notes are beneficial, but to really play modes skillfully, the understanding in Interval Function is essential..

thats pretty awesome man !!! i dig that alot bro , it was definetely cool hearing the darker more minor modes AGAINST THE GRAIN , as it were!!! VERY COOL ADVICE , THANKS ... i'm going to bring this method to a student of mine i'll tell him to check out your stuff...

always looking for some advice over here , happy to accept...

Franky M.

Originally Posted by: FMURPHYFrnkythats pretty awesome man !!! i dig that alot bro , it was definetely cool hearing the darker more minor modes AGAINST THE GRAIN , as it were!!! VERY COOL ADVICE , THANKS ... i'm going to bring this method to a student of mine i'll tell him to check out your stuff...
always looking for some advice over here , happy to accept...
Franky M.

I like your post as well. Good info regarding mode/interval relations.
A good tool to reference from when something doesn't quite fit in a Key while transcribing a piece, is Parallel Modes.
Take the progression in The Stones "Gimme Shelter" for example (Great Song, for sure).
The progression is; Intro; C#maj- Bmaj - Amaj
Chorus;
C#maj- Bmaj- Amaj- Emaj - Amaj - Emaj - Amaj - Emaj - Bmaj - Emaj - Bmaj

Using the Tonic Chord from the C# Ionian; C#-d#-e#-F#-G#-a#-b#
Then borrowing the Major Chords from the parallel minor
C# Aeolian; c#-d#-E-f#-g#-A-B
The Major chords C# from the Ionian and E-A-B from the c# Aeolian is brilliant. Although the chords are Major, the progression creates a minor Feel
(probably due to the lack of a pronounced V Chord proclaiming a Tonic).
Portions in the Solo are using the C#m Pentatonic scale as well.
(If anyone is interested, some claim the song is played in Open E Tuning) (and why not throw in some sus chord variation where need be).

the "gimmie shelter" stones ex: was totally awesome my friend...

just in case you've yet to hear some stuff i've done you can hear me at

www.myspace.com/friffz (my own personal space)
www.myspace.com/triphammermetal (a former power metal quintet)

(TRIPHAMMER was a melodic thrashing metal mad power metal quintet which features sweeping , beautifully harmonized solos we were a 2 guitar act)

www.myspace.com/triphammer95


(triphammer updated our sound to more hardcore metal the likes of PANTERA , CRO MAGS)

TO FIND my third and most alternative metal band "EVERY SECOND" Just click onto it's name which can easily be located on any of the friends on the other two or three :eek: myspaces I've posted !!!

(every second was an alternative metal band the likes of TOOL , THE MELVINS , AND HELMET)...

Check out these sites to hear what i've been doing for yr's n yr's...

now i'm mainly focused on HENDRIX , MICHEAL SCHENKER , MALMSTEEN and U.F.O. ...

send me some of your stuff bro i always enjoy your advice columns... THANX Franky M.

Originally Posted by: FMURPHYFrnkythe "gimmie shelter" stones ex: was totally awesome my friend...

just in case you've yet to hear some stuff i've done you can hear me at

www.myspace.com/friffz (my own personal space)
www.myspace.com/triphammermetal (a former power metal quintet)

(TRIPHAMMER was a melodic thrashing metal mad power metal quintet which features sweeping , beautifully harmonized solos we were a 2 guitar act)

www.myspace.com/triphammer95


(triphammer updated our sound to more hardcore metal the likes of PANTERA , CRO MAGS)

TO FIND my third and most alternative metal band "EVERY SECOND" Just click onto it's name which can easily be located on any of the friends on the other two or three :eek: myspaces I've posted !!!

(every second was an alternative metal band the likes of TOOL , THE MELVINS , AND HELMET)...

Check out these sites to hear what i've been doing for yr's n yr's...

now i'm mainly focused on HENDRIX , MICHEAL SCHENKER , MALMSTEEN and U.F.O. ...

send me some of your stuff bro i always enjoy your advice columns... THANX Franky M.

Sounds awesome.......Nice work.....

thank you SO MUCH MAN , I TRUELY APPRECIATE YOU taking the time to check out my PG'S... so far i've heard some excellent brainfreaks from superhuman AND i INTEND TO DIG FURTHER AND HOPEFULLY MAKE SOME MORE FRIENDS HERE... YOU GUYS ALL AMAZE ME , I BELIEVE I HEARD DNVETIAN TRACKS AS WELL... NOT SURE IF IT WAS HIM BUT THEY W :D ERE TO BE COMMENDED :D ...

www.myspace.com/friffz
www.myspace.com/triphammermetal
www.myspace.com/triphammer95

and unfortunately i dunno the exact name of the mypace pg. w/ my latest band "EVERY SECOND"... but you'll find it , as i've said on any of the other pg's... :D

Franky M.

Dvenetian.

After reading through you posts within this thread, a few things have 'clicked' in my head. Things which I've been having trouble understanding now seem so much clearer! I understood what the modes were and the unique characteristics of each, but when it came to applying the different modes to various situations, I was a little lost. Post #10 especially seemed to play a large part in clearing up my confusion.

Thanks very much for your advice, man!! Awesome!!

:D

Originally Posted by: Bill Brown 1979Dvenetian.

After reading through you posts within this thread, a few things have 'clicked' in my head. Things which I've been having trouble understanding now seem so much clearer! I understood what the modes were and the unique characteristics of each, but when it came to applying the different modes to various situations, I was a little lost. Post #10 especially seemed to play a large part in clearing up my confusion.

Thanks very much for your advice, man!! Awesome!!

:D

My pleasure Bill and welcome to the Forum. If you have any questions feel free to post em'. Someone here will be more than happy to address em'.

Thanks for the welcome! I'm sure I'll have one or two questions in the near future. ;)

could you post the intervals of the modes all in sequence

so i can memorize them please.