Modes from a different view

Originally Posted by: dvenetianWhen most of us are introduced to the 7 modes that relate to the 7 tones of the Major scale, we memorize the name and scale pattern of each mode by the order in which they follow the root note of the Major scale.
1st (root) Ionian mode, 2nd Dorian mode, 3rd Phrygian mode, 4th Lydian mode, 5th Mixolydian mode, 6th Aeolian mode (Natural minor) and 7th Locrian mode. Many studies use the G Major scale as an example because the patterns can be started and completed on all strings until they repeat again at the 15th fret. Most studies include the key signature and the connection each degree has to it's mode. Example: G Major- Am- Bm- C Major- D Major- Em- F#dim (some classify the diminished degree as minor, some say it's neither Major nor minor). So the modes follow suit, G Ionian, A Dorian (minor mode), B Phrygian (minor), C lydian (Major), etc.....
The modes use all of the same notes as the Major (Ionian) scale, they just start their pattern with a different note, so what's the big deal??
Many players never grasp the concept of incorporating Modal Theory with their style because they view the mode only to the Parent Diatonic scale, not as it's own tonal center and surround it with notes that relate to it.

I don't know if you've followed the "phrygian thread", but you've said exactly here, what I was trying to relate. I'm stealing what you've said here, and linking it to the other thread. Thanks! I just couldn't find my own words!

Most of this was covered in the phrygian thread. The last two lines are problematic.

Originally Posted by: dvenetian
The modes use all of the same notes as the Major (Ionian) scale, they just start their pattern with a different note, so what's the big deal??[/quote]
The big deal is that it can be very confusing and can take a long time to truly grasp, understand and incorporate.
[quote=dvenetian]
Many players never grasp the concept of incorporating Modal Theory with their style because they view the mode only to the Parent Diatonic scale, not as it's own tonal center and surround it with notes that relate to it.

A mode can't have "it's own tonal center" because the very concept of tonal relates to tonality as distinguished from modality. A mode can have it's own root note, it's own circled 1 on the fretboard patterns.

The primary distinction that is important to make is between a modal approach and a tonal approach.

A modal approach is regarding any given mode as the primary group of notes to used as in creating a piece of music. Typically, the result of this is that a tonal resolution is not present. There is no leading tone cadential resolution, and the chords do not necessarily follow the principles of Functional Harmony.

Example: a song or part of a song that uses the A aeolian mode and has these chords in this order - A min/G maj/F maj/G maj/A min. No leading tone present, no harmonic resolution.

A tonal approach is regarding any major or minor scale (altered to contain the raised 7th when required) as the primary group of notes to used as in creating a piece of music. Necessarily, the result of this is that at some point a tonal resolution is present. There is a leading tone cadential resolution, and the chords at some point necessarily follow the principles of Functional Harmony.

Example: a song or part of a song that uses the A minor scale and has these chords in this order - A min/G maj/F maj/E7/A min. Note that the E7 has a G# (altered 7th) as the leading tone, which then forms the harmonic resolution (V7-i).

So you can think of and use modes when you are playing no matter what. But they have a very specific function and there is an important difference between modal and tonal.

Originally Posted by: Lao_Tzucould you post the intervals of the modes all in sequence

so i can memorize them please.

http://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=7360
It's a lesson by The Ace on Modes and it includes their intervals that might help you out, it certainly helped me.

The more I read about modal theory the more confused I am becoming. I have memorized all the modes, and "quizz" myself with them, and move them around up and down the neck.

The problem is that I'm starting to feel clostrophobic about them now. Like in an above post Dev is mentioning playing an A mixo scale, but his notes are running into the G lydian box. So can I play G lydian as well as the A mixo ?

As long as the scale format for mixo falls on the A, can I play anywhere on the neck such as Ionian in C?

all modes are really are playing the right scales with the right chords. if u have a chord that brings out a certain flavour like a major 7th or even better a major 7th sus they have really distinct flavours and sounds. the modal theory comes into play when you know the intervals of the modes not the shapes. then u start to play the write mode for the right chord and targeting the flavour notes. example if the chord progression was from the second chord to the third chord in A major which would be b minor to c# minor. now we have the chords you could just play straight pentatonics the b minor and c# minor pentatonics but that wouldnt bring out the full flavour of what were going for. because knwoing your modes this is a dorian progression the way we make it dorian is we change the chords from b minor and c# minor to having a characteristic from the dorian scale. the dorian scale intervals are 1 maj2nd min3rd 4th 5th flat 6th flat 7th. and the average minor chord has a 1 minor 3rd p5th. now to make this dorian we need to slip in the chord the dorian notes. so what most ppl do is add the flavour note of the minor 7th so u can cahnge the b minor to bminor 7 c# minor to c#minor 7th. what id do is have the bminor chord with a sus2 and flat 7th. and the last chord c# minor 7th. now the chords are arranged u need to start tageting these notes with in the chord a good practice is to record an apperegiated sequence and feel when the notes come about and harmonize some b dorian over the top or a major (be careful always end on the root of b). hope this helps its the same for other scales if u know the intervalic structure (how the scales are made)

correct me if im wrong we all make mistakes

remember music is to be enjoyed not to be confused about.

That does help. I get carried away thinking too hard about things and miss the simple point of the topic. Thanks

Sorry to beat the thread to death but OMG I just had a giant "click"!! I was going over some of Chris Schlegel's lessons, first learning to play the major scale 3 different ways on each root, so I started memorizing all the A notes.

Then I got into his lesson on inversions, and after learning the root, first, and 2nd inversion and memorizing A, C#, and E on the fret I started moving the chords around and noodling. Before, I spent so much time practicing the modes all over the neck, that now I "see" all the modes and can bounce around them at will, and into the pentatonic.

Before I couldn't recognize the different sounds of the modes except for the changed note, now I can definitely tell when I play the different intervals around the inversions.

Just wanted to say thanks again, and a big thanks to Mr. Schlegel for showing me the way. /salute

Originally Posted by: shred3... I just had a giant "click"!! I was going over some of Chris Schlegel's lessons ...[/quote]
Good for you! :) Glad you are getting value from the site and my lessons.

Originally Posted by: shred3Before, I spent so much time practicing the modes all over the neck, that now I "see" all the modes and can bounce around them at will, and into the pentatonic.

Exactly. All these things are part of the same system. They are integrated; they do not work against each another, or somehow contradict each other.

And another thing, kudos to you for woodshedding the modes all over, so that when you reached the necessary conceptual understanding (the 'click' moment) your hands were already physically prepared to make use of it!

I cannot stress this enough: this is where and how theory meets practice. Thanks for posting about your 'click' moment.
[QUOTE=shred3]
Just wanted to say thanks again, and a big thanks to Mr. Schlegel for showing me the way. /salute

My pleasure. You deserve credit for working on it and practicing until you got it. Happy learning and playing.

Originally Posted by: shred3The more I read about modal theory the more confused I am becoming. I have memorized all the modes, and "quizz" myself with them, and move them around up and down the neck.

The problem is that I'm starting to feel clostrophobic about them now. Like in an above post Dev is mentioning playing an A mixo scale, but his notes are running into the G lydian box. So can I play G lydian as well as the A mixo ?

As long as the scale format for mixo falls on the A, can I play anywhere on the neck such as Ionian in C?

Just be careful not to confuse a "position" with a mode. Playing second position G major (starting on the 5th fret) is how most folks start recognizing the modes, you start associating the major scale position with the mode that shares the same root. In other words 2nd position G maj becomes A dorian.

This is fine for starting out, but it's important to realize it's not the position you are playing that makes it a A dorian, it's that you are playing the notes from the G Major scale, where ever they might be.

So although people do have a habit of associating positions of the root major scale to a mode, (2nd is Dorian, 3rd is Phrygian, 4th is Lydian, 5th is Mixo, 6th Aoelian, 7th Lociran) the whole point to understand is that if I play the notes from G major in any of these positions over a chord progression that emphasizes A minor, I am playing in A Dorian.

Even if the chord progression is a ii-V (Santana style) of A minor - D Major. If you play these two chords for the same amount of time per measure your ear will hear the A minor as the emphasis chord and therefore even when you play G major notes over the D major chord it will still feel like A Dorian, unless you spendmore than a measure on each chord then it might start sounding like you are changing modes each measure. If you change that progression and attempt to emphasize the D major chord in your progression perhaps by playing D major first and playing it for twice as long as the A minor chord you ear might be fooled into hearing the emphasis as being on the D major, which should now mean if you play the notes of G major over this progression it will sound like the Mixolydian mode.

This is really simplifying it obviously, you *still* have to take care to pick your notes out of the G major scale to suit the chord you are playing over. Dorian for instance really starts to shine when you play that #6 (when you play a F# on the 7th fret B string) against an A minor chord. This is because there's only a single note difference between true minor (Aeolian) and Dorian, and it's *that* note. So learn which notes are misplaced from the scale that you'd normally associate with the chord you are playing over, and practice emphasizing not only the notes of the chord, but this other note that might not even be in the chord at all.

Other examples:
Lydian - #4 from true Major
Mixolydian - b7 from true Major

Some of the fun of modes for me is to find the least number of chords I can use to tell the listeners ear what mode this is before I play a single note over it.

Like my favorite Dorian progression is still a ii-V.
Mixo - IV-V
Lydian - V-IV

and you'd be surprised at how many of your favorite solos end up being over these simple 2 chord progressions.

Hope this is helpful to someone, and hope I'm not a whacko that has a completely weird way of looking at this stuff lol.

Online guitar lessons allow for students, such as yourself, to learn guitar from the comfort of their own home. Also, online lessons, at least with membership sites, allow for an easy and portable way to take lessons anytime and any place. I have used several different online guitar lesson websites and have found some of them very helpful. I can use my computer at home or learn at school or a friend's house. Online lessons also allow to easily work at your own pace and on your own time.

For more details:
totallyguitars.com

Further to the post of grouping modes together - minors - Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, - Majors Ionian/Lydian - Dominant Mixolydian and Locrian as a minor with a b5. That is a great approach. I would take it even one step further into arpeggios and then add the extra tones.

Over a Maj 7 chord - you can play a Maj7 arpeggio which would highlight the 1, 3, 5 and 7 tones, as you play this arpeggio over the chord you can add in 2, 4, and 6 notes to add Ionian flavour or 2, b4 and 6 tones for a Lydian flavour. etc.

This takes away learning all the different modes and recalling them 'on the fly' you just look for the arpeggio tones of the chord you are playing over. I call these lily pads - a frog can do all sorts of radical backflips and whatever but he has to land on a lily pad to avoid falling in the water. In other words - you can play whatever you like but you need to land on an arpeggio chord tone to sound like you know what you are doing.

Jason.

It probably goes without saying but I will say it anyway... these are all devices to give you ideas for notes to use in your improvised (or even composed) MELODIES. Melodies is the operative word here because after all of the mode-learning is done, if you just run modes up and down, or even just arpeggios, your melodies will sound boring, even though all of the notes are right. Balance, register, rhythm, tension, timbre, dynamics, articulation are all things that need to be incorporated into a melody so it sounds musical. This is why a lot of people say modal playing sounds dumb, because these elements are not woven into the modal melodies. I guess what I am saying is whatever scale you are using, you must always strive to be musical and expressive, not just be satisfied with getting the right notes.

interesting stuff!

As promised, I have my Modes Across The Fretboard lessons updated to HD now:

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=370

I have also finished Practicing The Modes Of The Major Scale. It is 24 lessons long and has lots of fretboard diagrams and backing tracks.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=770

Enjoy!

hi sir.. ahhm.. i have some question.. how can i use modes..?
can i solo the mode G ionian in chord progression G,, Bm,, C,, D..? or what is the proper way in using modes.. thx a lot sir..

This is why I prefer the Classical Scale (Harmonic Minor) because it has no system of Modes (some pretend it does~). This single mode scale is based off of the Aolian mode, only with the altered raised 7th degree. This scale (mode) is considered the KING OF TONALITY, and most popular in Classical music.
Here is my fingering for all seven positions in F#m.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uudCP59fRo8

Diatonic modes are merely a concept of method that can be applied to a series of pitch specific sounds; in this case the major scale. I can't see any value in claiming this concept is weak. It is merely true. Some many find it valuable to think of the notes this way; some may not.

What does it mean to say it is displaced? :confused: Are you saying it is in the wrong place? Part of it is in the wrong place? If you mean it doesn't have a leading tone, then so what? Any scale or mode that doesn't contain a leading tone can be altered or modulated in order to contain one. Can you clarify this please?

Originally Posted by: JOHN JAUNESEThis is why I prefer the Classical Scale (Harmonic Minor) because it has no system of Modes (some pretend it does~).
[/quote]
First, you have a preference for the sound of an altered form of the minor scale. That's great! It is valuable to know what one likes in order to play music one enjoys.

Second, in Classical music you will find multiple examples of the major scale, the natural minor scale, the melodic minor as well as the harmonic minor scale. It is misleading, at best, to label the hamonic minor scale as The Classical Scale.

Third, any scale can be viewed as a series of modes. For example, phrygian dominant is the fifth mode of harmonic minor. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by claiming this is not true. Especially because the next thing you post is ...

Originally Posted by: JOHN JAUNESEThis single mode scale is based off of the Aolian mode, only with the altered raised 7th degree. This scale (mode) is considered the KING OF TONALITY, and most popular in Classical music.

You claim diatonic modes are weak and displaced, but you are acknowledging using one (aeolian), altering it, and it is a "mode scale". :confused:

In any event, if any scale is the "king" of tonality, it would have to be the major scale, which also contains a leading tone, which is part of a dominant V chord or diminished vii chord, therefore can be used to create tonal resolutions.
[QUOTE=JOHN JAUNESE]
Here is my fingering for all seven positions in F#m.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uudCP59fRo8

Wow, great technique! :) Ironically, in that video you are playing the modes of harmonic minor, an altered form of the natural minor scale, which can be viewed as an altered diatonic mode of the major scale.

Obviously you can play very well. I hope you can reassess the flaws in your conceptual approach and improve your thinking in order to raise it to the same level as your awesome physical technique & skills.

Best of success!

way too many questions...I suggest the following readings for starters.

"A History of Western Music" 5th edition, chapters 1,2,3."
Groves
New Dictionary of Musicians "modes and scales section."

A General History of Music From The Earliest
Ages To The Present

"History of the Church Modes" by
Larry Mysz

The Melodic Minor was created to smooth out the vocal lines in choir music, as the Aug 2nd was not pleasant for vocal arrangements. I think it was Mozart who spear headed that effort. All variations of the minor scale are useful, and can actually help in chromatic usage. I like using the Hungarian minor allot as well as all Aolian based scales, but not all scales can be KING.

Originally Posted by: CSchlegel
Wow, great technique! :) Ironically, in that video you are playing the modes of harmonic minor

No no no...They are clearly labled POSITIONS in the video, not MODES.

MODERATOR WHERE ARE YOU?????

Originally Posted by: CSchlegel
I hope you can reassess the flaws in your conceptual approach and improve your thinking

MODERATOR : CAN YOU PLEASE READ THE INSULT ABOVE

I was simply trying to participate in a thread, and this person is out of control.
I have written articals for the Guitar Tricks news letter on modes and have been a member since 2003 and I don't feel his comments are justified.