Perfect Tone

First off, I haven't been playing guitar too long (5 months), but I've been obsessed since I've started and I play at least 2 hours every day. I'd like to think I'm advancing pretty fast in some areas, while I'm still a novice in others. Particularly how to achieve the perfect sound:

For example... I've been learning the chorus of Black Star by Yngwie, and I've finally got it down (yes, even the fast alternate picking). But I haven't yet mastered the crazy solos in the rest of the song, of course.

But anyway, f you know the song, you'll know there are a few very important bends in the chorus. I'm actually using a Fender Strat (just like he did), but I only have a small Fender Mustang amp. But here's my question: is it unreasonable to think I can match his tone with my small amp and guitar? I basically just put it on a high gain setting. Because even though I have the bends down, it doesn't sound quite as emotional as his. But I'm pretty clueless when it comes to recording and live performances. It sounds like he might even have another guitarist playing the same thing at the same time, maybe even in another octave? Or maybe I need an actual tube amp with some pedals?

Again, I'm fairly clueless on the matter, and would welcome any advice!

~Rusty

Bends and vibrato is where a player adds his feel and his own unique sound. Each player's vibrato is his own. From my experience, this is something that just comes with time and lots of playing. 80% of your tone comes from your hands! Amps and effects play into it, but the "emotion" you refer to comes from your hands.

Listen to a good player play their guitar unplugged from an amp. You'll be amazed at the "tone" that they can generate.

I know what you mean. I was surprised when my uncle picked up my guitar and played. I was like "that really came out of my guitar?" But I can't help but obsess over this song. It really sounds to me like there might be two guitars playing at the same time during the chorus. I just can't seem to mimic the sound exactly with just one.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I've had many times when I put some real effort into copping a particular tone - then just when you think you've got it - you listen to the orig and - nope, somethings still not right.

Studio recordings are done with sophisticated equipment, overdubs, and unlimited post-production EQ. Tough sometimes. I've tried for years to get the "perfect" tones from (for example) Def Lep's Pyromania ( a Mutt Lange production masterpiece) - Finally have to settle for a sound that is convincing and has the elements of the tones - even though, side-by-side, it's definitely not "spot on". I'm not particularly good at it and it was almost a relief when I came to terms with the notion of just getting it in the ball park.

Our "quest for tone" can be a futile battle. All you can do is keep tweaking and come as close as you can. Have fun with it and good luck.

Hey, Rusty. You're working on an ambitious project there. :)

Originally Posted by: bbzswa777... I've been learning the chorus of Black Star by Yngwie, and I've finally got it down (yes, even the fast alternate picking). But I haven't yet mastered the crazy solos in the rest of the song, of course.
[/quote]
The main melody in YJM's Black Star is indeed two guitars in harmony thirds.

YJM used his Duck Strat ('72 big headstock maple scalloped neck & Dimarzio HS-3s) through several Marshalls & a DOD250 pedal. And it was LOUD. The reverb was added after the fact with studio gear.

http://www.yngwiemalmsteen.com/yngwie/about-yngwie/equipment/
http://www.groundguitar.com/yngwie-malmsteen-guitars-gear/

YJM's tone is surprisingly clean. It is overdriven, there is distortion. But there is also a lot of natural big, loud tube amp volume.

Last, and most importantly, is his touch & technique. YJM is among the best at vibrato (string bending) of any rock guitarist. People vary on their taste on his over the top use of speed, or his style of writing, playing, performing. But that guy's vibrato is one of the best in the business.

First & foremost work on bending up slowly & confidently, then bring the note back down and shake it back & forth slowly. If you do it too quickly, it sounds too nervous & nothing like YJM's slow, wide, violin like expression.

After that you can get close to his tone if you get the volume up as high as possible, but the gain down around 60-75%. 100% is just too much for that tone. You want to hear the notes singing, not buzzing.

Finally, on most of the melody licks he uses his neck pickup for that warm, saturated tone.
[QUOTE=bbzswa777]It sounds like he might even have another guitarist playing the same thing at the same time, maybe even in another octave?

Yes, the main melody is harmonized in thirds. YJM double tracked this in the studio. Live, he has the keyboard player do the harmony line.

I used to play this tune live all the time back in the 80s in a single guitar band. I just played the main lower line for one phrase, then the higher harmony for the next verse. One time I had a friend sit in & we played it as is on the recording! It was awesome. :)

Here's the official tab.

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0062226&

Here's the lesson section of YJMs website.

http://www.yngwiemalmsteen.com/yngwie/media/lessons-tips/

Here's my lessons on speed, shred guitar technique.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=287
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=928
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=929
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=973
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=980
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1308
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1583

Hope this helps. Have fun with that great tune!

All that makes a lot of sense!

I agree, even if some people don't like too many of Yngwie's songs, you gotta respect his ability. Have you seen the videos of him playing with the New Japan Philharmonic? Like Toccata or Fugue?

But regarding Black Star's chorus, I know what you're saying in having to bend up slow and confidently; I have to make sure I go slow enough in order to hear the full range of the bend.

I also noticed what you're talking about regarding the scalloped fret board in another video. That's the first I've ever heard about it. I guess it would make it so there's less friction when bending? It would be cool to try that out but I'm too scared to do that to any guitar I've spent money on!

Anyway, I guess I'm realizing that learning all about the gear it takes to create certain tones is almost as big of a learning process as learning the guitar itself. Like when you said his sound goes through several amps, I'm not sure how to even go about doing that or what purpose is serves. I guess I'm headed back to the "Gear" section of the forum!

Thanks again for the info.

~Rusty

Originally Posted by: bbzswa777All that makes a lot of sense![/quote]
Good deal. That's what we are after.

I saw you asking about gear & tone in another thread. That is a very large & deep rabbit hole. :) Regarding info on YJM (or any other well-known player), and the basics of gear (Marshalls, amps, speakers, guitars, etc.) there is a wealth of info on the web; usually at the artist's own site or on Wikipedia. A Google search usually can get you what you need to know.

Originally Posted by: bbzswa777
I agree, even if some people don't like too many of Yngwie's songs, you gotta respect his ability. Have you seen the videos of him playing with the New Japan Philharmonic? Like Toccata or Fugue?
[/quote]
Here's where I get to show how old I am. :p

I had already been learning & playing guitar for 8 years when I first heard YJM. I started by learning some Beatles, Stones & Monkees songs. Later, I was digging Van Halen, Deep Purple, Montrose, Kiss & other 70s & early 80s rock music. In spring 1984, a guitar playing friend of mine comes over with a cassette tape he just bought, "Dude, you've got to hear this guy!" I still remember sitting on my front porch listening to Black Star blasting out of a little battery powered tape player.

Wow.

We were totally stunned! I remember thinking, "That guy is doing Blackmore, Bach & Beethoven on a screaming Strat! At light speed! I want to do that!"

I got to see him as the opening act in 1985 when he came through St. Louis where I grew up. By that time I'd bought both first albums & slowed down all the solos on my record turntable; and also on a reel-to-reel tape machine to half-speed. I finally learned a few of the tunes & was able to play them in cover bands for the next decade or so. My faves to listen to & play were always Black Star & Far Beyond The Sun. Great stuff. :)

I've always enjoyed his instrumental work more than the songs with lyrics which I did not enjoy. Except for the solos & licks. I was very excited to hear about his Concerto Suite for Electric Guitar & Orchestra because I love classical music & YJMs playing. I bought it & have enjoyed it ever since. The vids of him playing with the Japanese orch are excellent!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerto_Suite_for_Electric_Guitar_and_Orchestra

I saw him again in a couple of clubs in the early 2000s, still shredding away! I don't collect autographs, or normally have any interest in them. YJMs is the one exception to that rule.

Originally Posted by: bbzswa777
But regarding Black Star's chorus, I know what you're saying in having to bend up slow and confidently; I have to make sure I go slow enough in order to hear the full range of the bend.

Yes, and also, keep in mind that it is 2 guitars playing in harmony with each other.
[QUOTE=bbzswa777]
I also noticed what you're talking about regarding the scalloped fret board in another video. That's the first I've ever heard about it. I guess it would make it so there's less friction when bending? It would be cool to try that out but I'm too scared to do that to any guitar I've spent money on!

Yes, there is less material (the wood of the fretboard) in your way. But it is also a bit harder to get used to being accurate at first. And please do not try that at home! There is a YJM Fender Strat artist model guitar that is already scalloped from the factory. There is also a Ritchie Blackmore model that is scalloped.

http://www.fender.com/guitars/stratocaster/yngwie-malmsteen-stratocaster-scalloped-maple-fingerboard-vintage-white/

http://www.fender.com/guitars/stratocaster/ritchie-blackmore-stratocaster-scalloped-rosewood-fingerboard-olympic-white/
[QUOTE=bbzswa777]
Anyway, I guess I'm realizing that learning all about the gear it takes to create certain tones is almost as big of a learning process as learning the guitar itself. Like when you said his sound goes through several amps, I'm not sure how to even go about doing that or what purpose is serves.

Yes, it is a big process! But it is also part of the fun: trying out new & different gear, exploring all the possible sounds & tones.

YJM typically uses more than one Marshall amp and the purpose is to PLAY LOUD. :D But he would sound just like himself though one amp or a small practice amp.

And there is an important lesson there. It's great to chase tone & get inspired by, learn from & copy licks from your heroes. It's a great place to start when you are learning. But it's also important to remember that the best you can hope for at the end of that road is to sound just like someone else. In the end, you want to use what you learn from your influences to find your own sound, your own tone, to blaze your own trail.

Have fun!

Originally Posted by: CSchlegel
And there is an important lesson there. It's great to chase tone & get inspired by, learn from & copy licks from your heroes. It's a great place to start when you are learning. But it's also important to remember that the best you can hope for at the end of that road is to sound just like someone else. In the end, you want to use what you learn from your influences to find your own sound, your own tone, to blaze your own trail.

Have fun!

This advice is GOLD!!! Listen to him...he knows of what he speaks!! :-)

For years and years I have played guitar and always felt inadequate because I couldn't play like my heroes - SRV, Gilmour, Lifeson, DiMeola, Satriani, EVH, etc., etc.

I always enjoyed playing guitar since I was about 13. However, it became most fulfilling recently when I learned to use the skills I have to make something of my own, or learn songs more at my skill level and make adjustments to make it my own.

So now instead of feeling inadequate about my playing, I feel like I have something worth sharing and am super enthusiastic about playing. I've come up with arrangements using various chord voicings for cover songs we are doing with a band I'm involved with at the moment. I having a blast improvising funky rhythms to songs I would never have listened to on my own. I also learned how to improvise with my own style, which continues to evolve.

I would still like to play like my heroes one day. Maybe I will, maybe not. If not, that OK, as long as I can continue to improve my style, and as Chris says, blaze my own trail!

Originally Posted by: CSchlegel

I got to see him as the opening act in 1985 when he came through St. Louis where I grew up.

Jealous! From the videos I've seen he seems pretty animated on stage. That had to have been an awesome show.

Also, about the time you first heard him play, I can only imagine how shocking that must have been, and inspiring. As far as I know, he was a real pioneer in playing that way. I wonder if he realized how many people were going to start practicing his style!

Anyway, I know what you're saying about chasing someone else's tone. I always tell myself to only compare my ability with where I was in the past, not with other players. But still, it's kind of hard not to from time to time! I definitely will take your advice on seeking my own path, but I guess it doesn't hurt to learn some things from the players who figured it out already. If anything, I can use them as tools later on in my own songs.

Maggior: thanks for the support. I'll definitely keep your advice in mind as well. I can't wait until I've created my own piece or even just a few bars that I'm really satisfied with.

Anyway, back to practicing! See you later.

~Rusty

Originally Posted by: maggiorSo now instead of feeling inadequate about my playing, I feel like I have something worth sharing and am super enthusiastic about playing.[/quote]
Exactly. This is exactly what I mean. The most satisfaction to be had from playing guitar, & music in general, is by making it your own.

I've known a few guys that have labored for years to sound exactly like their heroes. And some of them have done it! Completely nailed it. And if that is what they wanted, then kudos to them.

As much as I get enjoy learning my heroes licks, I've always gotten a much bigger thrill playing one of my own songs on stage. Or even just playing a blues licks that I thought up & have never heard anywhere else. It's all mine. :)
[QUOTE=maggior]I would still like to play like my heroes one day. Maybe I will, maybe not. If not, that OK, as long as I can continue to improve my style, and as Chris says, blaze my own trail!

Playing guitar, making your own sound, having fun. Who could ask for anything more? :)

Originally Posted by: bbzswa777Jealous! From the videos I've seen he seems pretty animated on stage. That had to have been an awesome show.[/quote]
He played for about 45 minutes. Lots of solos, lots of instrumental tunes & a few songs with lyrics. I think the singer was off the stage more than on. :)

Originally Posted by: bbzswa777
Also, about the time you first heard him play, I can only imagine how shocking that must have been, and inspiring. As far as I know, he was a real pioneer in playing that way. I wonder if he realized how many people were going to start practicing his style!

It was thrilling. Did he know people would want to copy him? He probably wasn't worried about that. He was probably more focused on creating his own sound. Remember, he was influenced by Blackmore, Bach & Beethoven. But he only sounds like himself. :)
[QUOTE=bbzswa777]If anything, I can use them as tools later on in my own songs.

Exactly! Have fun practicing!

Originally Posted by: maggior I've come up with arrangements using various chord voicings for cover songs we are doing with a band I'm involved with at the moment. I having a blast improvising funky rhythms to songs I would never have listened to on my own. I also learned how to improvise with my own style, which continues to evolve.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm.... interesting... very different from what you said not long ago in response to my post:

Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardIt also good to be aware there's a huge difference in being influenced by someone's playing, and copying it note for note...

[QUOTE=maggior]I have to say that when I listen to a band cover a song, I'm always most impressed when they hit it note for note and have the tone down...

I was trying to encourage people to develop their own sound... sounds like you've "changed your tone" (har har!) ;)

Ya caught me :-).

Discussions here and recent experience have definitely reshaped my opinion.

However, I am still most impressed when a band covers a song and hits it note for note. But...it doesn't mean I have to :-). I've discovered that for myself, it is much more fun to do otherwise. When I see bands performing cover songs, I may feel differently.

...and just another note on tone:

Our heroes sound awesome whether playing through a massive stage rig or a little combo amp. They key to their sound is not the gear but them, the player themself.

I mean, think about it; Brian May mostly played through little amps on Queen stuff it it sounds awesome..because of Brian.

I remember Leslie West said that tone starts at the fingertips.

Think about Yngwie, as Chris said, he has a style. In the 80's there was a shredder on every street corner. Most did not translate. Yngwie did. Why? He was identifiable. He had a thing. Same with George Lynch, he very much had a unique style and people gravitated. Could they shred? Yep. But they had their own thing too.

Honestly, it's why I stopped bothering with the whole sweep arpeggio thing in the 80's. For me, it was cool as a guitar player but rarely did I think it added to the song unless it was done extremely well. It didn't have a payoff for me. So, I focused on growing the breadth of knowledge....

No doubt, I did practice my shred runs and got pretty decent at it but always rooted in two things...a blues pentatonic base (one of the best guitar player I pretty much knew said 'like it or not, the average listener's ear likes the pentatonic...it's pleasing') and melody. I could play fast and clean but without really have a sense of melody, why would it matter.

...and now ends my thoughts :)

"Our heroes sound awesome whether playing through a massive stage rig or a little combo amp. They key to their sound is not the gear but them, the player themself" -Jeffs65

Agreed 100%. NO question about it. There's still a lot of room for work a player/performer can do to pay homage to a characteristic tone.

For example I hear a lot of players do old school AC/DC and use waaaay too much gain. Are they "putting their own spin on it" intentionally ? Do they not see any value in [at least trying to] emulate the tone of the original ? Maybe they have lazy ears, really don't care, or are purposefully altering the tone to suit their personal taste .... doesn't matter, I guess, as long as they're happy with what it sounds like. As established - nothing we do with knobs is going to make us sound exactly like Angus - but if one is going to go to the trouble of learning the notes he plays one might as well try to make the notes sound like his - even if those notes, strung together, aren't going to match the swagger and magic Angus adds with his fingers. (?) I'm not arguing or disagreeing with anyone - just talking.

MAGGIOR: I don't think u have to back up on your position that your favorite live covers are ones that are truest to the original (note/note - tone). I think that's a universal perspective ( especially amongst non-musicians). Maybe you've gained appreciation for those that are more liberal with their covers ...that's certainly OK. Right now my area is the middle of a 10 day biker rally that brings a TON of live music and I get to hear some of the best cover/tribute bands there are, all-day/all-night. The arrangements, execution, and even the vocals are delivered with meticulous attention to detail- absolutely amazing. You guys would have a really good time here this week. Wish You Were Here.:)

STORY: This one place had 3 tribute bands lined up back-to-back. The Eagles, Led Zeppelin, and Pink Floyd. As it turned out ... all 3 bands were the same guys! They'd change outfits and (some) equipment between shows and did long sets of all 3 bands. And did them extremely well. That, guys, is a helluva good time. Peace.

I think you hit it - I now have an appreciation for those that element to covers to make them their own. A tribute band - well that's their mission, to sound just like them. That's a riot that the same guys covered Eagles, Floyd, and Zepp. That would have been a night!!!

Jeff,

I understand what you're saying about being able to sweep pick arpeggios, yet doing so isn't exactly going to make you stand out regarding creativity. But I'm so jealous of that ability!

I've only been playing for around 5 months so far, but I'm completely obsessed (I play at least 2-3 hours every day), and I'd like to think I'm progressing fairly fast.

But I spend a big chunk of my time developing my sweep picking ability, which is pretty much at square one right now. How long did it take you to develop this technique until you were happy with it?

~Rusty

good video YJM on small marshall, can't find another where he uses little MG straight and sounds great also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=RDXDzNsFjEk1E&v=XDzNsFjEk1E

great stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN5k7fSh4LU

I read some talk earlier about scalloped fretboards and wanted to add a couple of points. Touch is critical when playing a scalloped board, as too much pressure can cause everything to go sharp. (especially noticable when chording) The real cool thing that I find is that they open up a whole other variation in technique so far as vibrato and string bends go as you can add inflection simply by applying and releasing pressure to the strings behind the fret.
So far as dialing in 'the perfect tone' this is a holy grail quest which can never entirely be achieved. If you find YOUR perfect tone, I commend you. Ten other players will tell you that it's too thin, too fat, too dirty, too clean, etc. You will tweak a knob here and there as time goes on as well. Guaranteed!!!