Song Structure

Lets discuss what actually is a song or the parts that make up a song. Not all songs are the same obviously but the simplest structure should have a intro, verse, chorus and a finale. The way I see it, the easiest way is to come up with something catchy as the chorus, work on a verse or two to fit into that and fit in an intro and an ending. I'd really like to hear how others go about it.

thankx.

Sometimes I do it that way, sometimes I go out of my way to give a song a less typical structure (like three uninterrupted verses and then an outro, or the verse and chorus having the same chords but a different melody). It all depends on my mood, really. The structure of a song is a pretty arbitrary thing, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by: dreamstateLets discuss what actually is a song or the parts that make up a song. Not all songs are the same obviously but the simplest structure should have a intro, verse, chorus and a finale. The way I see it, the easiest way is to come up with something catchy as the chorus, work on a verse or two to fit into that and fit in an intro and an ending. I'd really like to hear how others go about it.

thankx.

There's actually no hard rule when it comes to structure. You could just have Verse, Verse, Verse.. no need to even have a chorus. You could just have Verse, Chorus, Verse.. Or Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Verse.. or Verse, Verse, Pre-Chorus, Chorus, Verse, Bridge, Pre-Chorus, Instrumental, Chorus, Verse.. whatever you like..

There's no "shoulds" and "should-nots" really.. only what is "common" and "uncommon" to specific styles of music. The Beatles would often just repeat the first verse for their last verse because they didn't have the time to write an entirely new verse for the final verse... Many folk songs are simply Verse, Verse, Verse, Verse etc.. Then you think about Instrumentals and Symphonies... another world of structure there again.

I tend to start writing the Verse first.. and then write a Chorus (sometimes even a pre-Chorus).. and then let the song write itself the rest of the way. However, in other cases I will think of a really catchy title so I will attempt to write the Chorus first and work on the Verses afterwards.

Thanks for your views earthman buck and light487. Hope others would join in and analyse the parts and maybe talk bout progressions riffs solos etc.

I agree, there really is no real structure. But I will usually write like this.

Intro, Verse, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Verse, Chorus, Bridge (or Solo), Chorus, Outro

How I usually write songs, is I come up with a catchy intro, a couple verses, then the chorus, a couple more verses,then finish with a great finale. I try to also write songs based on daily events, which a lot of my music friends, and band mates try to do also. Like recently, I was turned down at a dance for some
other kid who I now really hate :mad: and I wrote a great song about it called "left me there" (I hope I got my point across to that friggin' kid :mad: )

I use recording software (Cubase).
I set the song length to about 3 1/2 minutes, make an intro of 4 bars, a first verse of 4 bars, a chorus. Then a second verse of 4 bars and back into a couple of repeats of the chorus. Then a bridge and finally repeat the chorus until the end of the song.
You can buy drum loop CD's in REX format that are already set up with intro's, verses and chorus etc. So you just use those set up the basics of the drum tracks.
Then you record a dozen or so tracks of just jamming on the guitar, keeping in mind where the verses and chorus's should be.

Once you finish, you pick what sounds best and then start adding the rest of the instruments.
If you change your mind about the order of the different parts of the song, it's just simple cutting and pasting to move everything around.

As you spend a few weeks on a song like this, all kinds of ideas start coming to you and you just keep what sounds good and mute out the rest.
You'll also start coming up with melody lines and lyrics.
Last step is to add vocals and harmonies. Mix it all down. Master it, burn a bunch of CD's with about 12 of your songs, do the cover art etc.
Buy a bar code and send the album to CDBaby. Authorize digital sales.
Upload demo versions to usenet and other online resources. Send copies to online radio stations.
Then just wait for the money to start coming in.

Don't expect much though. I sell tons of songs through iTunes etc., and at about .0003 cents per song, I only make maybe $20 a month from digital sales. The real money is in music for TV/Film and loop CD's.

Anyways..I digress....
Most popular songs are in the normal structure that's been around for years.
intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus, fade to end
... or other slightly different variations.
The intro has to be short so it gets to the vocals fast, the verse has to happen quickly so you can get to the catchy hook in your chorus.
Hence the reason why most popular music these days sucks the big one.
Everybody follows the same formula because that's what you have to do to get played on the radio.

The indie and truly original stuff gets lost in the shuffle.

I agree with light487, a song can anything you want it to be. A Your song is YOUR song. You choose it's order

Originally Posted by: olson34I agree with light487, a song can anything you want it to be. A Your song is YOUR song. You choose it's order

True. Unfortunately though, if you want to get played on mass market radio, you have to stick to certain predefined formats. Either that or come up with something so original and groundbreaking that it redefines the music industry so that others will want to copy your style.

Thanks for the input guys, ok then lets work on something thats meant for radio. mark2dude presented some subject matter so we'll try to work from that, "Left me there'. So that could be the last line in the chorus and we need to comeup with something to fit into that and not stray too far off from the point. I'll have a go.

Saturday nite at the dance,
No turning back, no second chance,
She just winked and flung her hair...
around and she left me there.

hope thats not too lame, maybe someone could improve on that or come up with verses.

Originally Posted by: dreamstateThanks for the input guys, ok then lets work on something thats meant for radio. mark2dude presented some subject matter so we'll try to work from that, "Left me there'. So that could be the last line in the chorus and we need to comeup with something to fit into that and not stray too far off from the point. I'll have a go.

Saturday nite at the dance,
No turning back, no second chance,
She just winked and flung her hair...
around and she left me there.

hope thats not too lame, maybe someone could improve on that or come up with verses.

I love here and she loves me
Now we live in har-mo-ny...


... sorry...it might be a little corny.

Have you ever tried printing out song templates, like blank lines where you fill in words to make them fit a particular song structure?


Kinda like:

Verse 1

------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------

Chorus 1

------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------

Verse 2

------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------

Chorus 2

------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------

Bridge

------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------

Chorus 3

------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------

Fade to end...

Then you start adding words where the dashes are. Like, come up with a chorus first with a compelling and rememberable saying that isn't corny and overused and has a good hook. (open your iTunes player and look at the list of titles to get an idea of stuff that actually worked)
Then go back to the first verse and try to tell a story that leads up to the chorus. Then embellish the second verse a little to explain the story in more detail.

To help you along, you grab a rhyming dictionary and a visual thesaurus to spark ideas, throw the template in front of you with an MP3 of the instrumental backup playing and start filling in the blanks.

Don't listen to any other music and when you're driving around or whatever, your subconscious starts playing the lyrics over and over again in your head trying to figure out what they are. Almost like a song you heard on the radio but you can't remember what the lyrics were.
Keep a little MP3 recorder nearby and a backup recording of the music in the car and be prepared to grab it and sing any inspiration that hits.

There's all kindsa rules you're supposed to learn first before you start trying to break them with original ideas... like, deciding whether you're doing your song in the first, second or third person and not switching during the song.
Placing the song in the past, present or future.
Avoiding filler words like 'just' or starting lines with 'and'

There's a whole ton of 'commercial' songwriting tips you can find on the web or grab a book on successful songwriting from the library. Not to mention, grabbing the lyrics to the most successful songs ever written off the web and studying them to figure out why they worked.

Nope, dont print templates. Infact I dont write lyrics at all mostly intrumentals only. Just thought I'd give it a go here. Anyway we'll use your template to complete this song. Once the lyrics been worked out we could start on an appropriate melody and all that stuff.
Think what i came-up sounds more like a verse, changed it a bit and added couple lines to Kevin's to fit the story.

here goes:

Verse 1

Shes the girl for me
Uncomplicated
I love here and she loves me
Now we live in har-mo-ny...

Verse 2

Saturday nite at the dance,
Loves so intoxicated
She just winked and flung her hair...
around and she left me there.

Chorus 1

Left me there
Left me there
She stood me up and ...
left me there


Bridge

------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------

Chorus 2

------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------

Fade to end...

im not sure but any time i have tried to write lyrics out before i have a melody or even a beat it never works for me.

if i try to write lyrics i usually start with an idea (like mega deth did with peace sells) and go from there.

the last 'song i tried' to write was called how i look to them. i wrote it in part when i was in high school and the rest later but here is the chours:

i wonder how i look to them
the posters on my wall
all my heros, paving the way
will they come to my day

i was smoking about $50 of weed a day at the time so go easy.

Originally Posted by: BrokenJeraim not sure but any time i have tried to write lyrics out before i have a melody or even a beat it never works for me.

if i try to write lyrics i usually start with an idea (like mega deth did with peace sells) and go from there.

the last 'song i tried' to write was called how i look to them. i wrote it in part when i was in high school and the rest later but here is the chours:

i wonder how i look to them
the posters on my wall
all my heros, paving the way
will they come to my day

i was smoking about $50 of weed a day at the time so go easy.

haha, thats a lot, or you were getting ripped off.

It's hard to judge lyrics from just reading them they might work in the song you wrote just cause. They don't really make sense grammatically but that never killed anyone, the last line is really the only one that may need to change. Honestly though if you can't hear them or understand them in the song anything is fine. A lot of the time I write lyrics for music by just recording myself making noises and then go back in and fit words in their place.

I don't know about song structure though recently I have been messing with a verse verse verse, sorta structure, mostly just cause I am playing with super repetitive riffs that play throughout the entire song and there will literally be only four bars repeated for a couple minutes. But when I am not doing that I am trying to write more progressive stuff, so stuff that is much more symphonic and has sections and such but not really verses and choruses and bridges. There is no right way, just whatever sounds right to you.

well the song its self is about all the poster of musicians i had on my wall and how would they like what i was trying to do.

the last line is actually a break in the riffs and it means basically would they pay for a ticket to come see me play.

well then I would change, "will they come to my day" to "would they come see me play" still rhymes same amount of syllables and it means exactly what you want it to mean. No need to write it in a weird way if you don't need to.

The way you have it now just doesn't really make anysense that's all. It could be several other things really, they just need to make sense if you are actually writing about something.

ideas (slight variations really):

"will they come hear me play?"

"would they come on the day, I play?" (i figure if it's a push then you can extend it just a little more for a more dramatic effect).

"blush now shucks off grapes" (grapes has the "A" sound in it so it rhymes just emphasis it when you sing)

There are a million possibilities really. anyway I don't mean to pressure you into changing your song I'm just trying to help out by giving you some ideas to expand on.

Originally Posted by: BrokenJeraim not sure but any time i have tried to write lyrics out before i have a melody or even a beat it never works for me.

if i try to write lyrics i usually start with an idea (like mega deth did with peace sells) and go from there.

the last 'song i tried' to write was called how i look to them. i wrote it in part when i was in high school and the rest later but here is the chours:

i wonder how i look to them
the posters on my wall
all my heros, paving the way
will they come to my day

i was smoking about $50 of weed a day at the time so go easy.

See if this works for you. Remember when writing words can be sped up, stretched, slowed down, shorten, to make it work in a song. Lyrics should not match the same sylables per line.

V1
I wonder how I look to them, my heroes posted on my wall,
Would they even lend an ear to me at all?
These greats that paved the way.
I wonder what they would say.

V2
Off to sleep, I awake to thundering riffs and lightening balls.
My heroes have come down from the wall,
Hendrix passes me an axe to trip.
And screams, “Step up and let it rip!”

CH
I stretched and shredded and let it scream.
I bled on the neck and on the strings.
They were please my heroes and me.
We jammed all to victory.



Just a thought to get you started.

that sounds awasome looney you should copy write that. i could write riffs to that right now. just give it the ac/dc kind of crunch. it does need a bridge and a third verse at least though. kind of a revealing. with out going into much thought it would need to be something like
bridge:
i started all this to be just like you
it took me forever to understand
your the only you
and ive just gotta be like me
verse 3
i look at all the heros, posted on my wall
i learned to be just like them
when it was me i should have copied
then i might be a hero, posted on a wall

something like that but it would take me a while to write something that sounded as good as looneytunes.

i was looking over the paper i have the whole thing written on and i got that 'psycho stalker' vibe from it so ill just start over from the beginning.

i never really noticed how much that weed stuff really messed with my head. now im really glad i gave it all up.

Originally Posted by: BrokenJerathat sounds awasome looney you should copy write that. i could write riffs to that right now. just give it the ac/dc kind of crunch. it does need a bridge and a third verse at least though. kind of a revealing. with out going into much thought it would need to be something like
bridge:
i started all this to be just like you
it took me forever to understand
your the only you
and ive just gotta be like me
verse 3
i look at all the heros, posted on my wall
i learned to be just like them
when it was me i should have copied
then i might be a hero, posted on a wall

something like that but it would take me a while to write something that sounded as good as looneytunes.

i was looking over the paper i have the whole thing written on and i got that 'psycho stalker' vibe from it so ill just start over from the beginning.

i never really noticed how much that weed stuff really messed with my head. now im really glad i gave it all up.

My thought would be that you thought you were only dreaming, but when you wake up the Hendrix guitar is at the foot of your bed.

Anyway, it's yours. Go with it, but I want to hear the finish.

Originally Posted by: looneytunesMy thought would be that you thought you were only dreaming, but when you wake up the Hendrix guitar is at the foot of your bed.

Anyway, it's yours. Go with it, but I want to hear the finish.

i see where you were going, but you still need to reveal to the listener that it was all just a dream (or was it). to me at least the last verse and bridge need to engage the listener and try to get them to remember when they wanted to be a rock star, and those gooffy memories of playing air guitar in the mirror.

this was a post about how the structure a song so lets write out this one.

intro
verse
lead break (using chours riffs as backing)
verse
chours
solo break
chours
bridge
verse
outro solo (using chours riffs as backing)