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chris mood
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chris mood
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10/21/2003 6:32 pm
Hmmm, not much has happened here since I left. Watchya want to talk about?
# 1
daveasdf
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daveasdf
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10/21/2003 7:29 pm
I'd like to know what an E maj chord with a raised 5th is. Like : X2211X ... play that after a normal A major and you're in the circus. E#5, right? Been too long.
# 2
chris mood
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chris mood
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10/21/2003 9:48 pm
Technically you couldn't call it a E#5 chord because you have the natural 5th within the chord also, so you would have to refer to the added #5 tone as a b6th or a b13th.
Eaddb6
Eaddb13
The Dr.s' in the house, bring on the questions.
# 3
noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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10/21/2003 11:24 pm
Chris,

How did your book come along man? Yeah been somewhat slow here, no one to debate with. ;) Anyways welcome back.

X2211X looks like a Caug/B or several other different spellings.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 4
chris mood
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chris mood
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10/22/2003 4:05 am
The book's done, and at the printer. Still have to finish up the cd that accompanies it, I meet w/the publisher on Sat.

Could be a cmaj7#5 over b, except 1) it's very uncommon to have the maj7th in the bass, & 2)given the chord progression it makes more sense w/E going to A.

BTW.....no such thing as a augmented 7th chord.

[Edited by chris mood on 10-21-2003 at 11:08 PM]
# 5
chris mood
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chris mood
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10/22/2003 4:10 am
my bag, you didn't label it as Caug7, you labeled it Caug/B.
# 6
noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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10/22/2003 3:06 pm
Sounds cool. Who's publishing it? I will definitely look for it in the future.

I missed that part about coming from A major so my earlier spelling would be an uncommon way of naming that chord. Chris you would definitely be right then by going to E next. Being an E augmented that's sort of weird, think that's a hungarian movement (I-V+). Could be wrong but I believe it is. You could call it an Emaj(b13), that would be right but I don't see anything wrong with calling it an E+, but you would have to note B in the bass (E+/B). The E+ triad exists in the a triad on the D, G, and B strings (X-211X = E+). Then you have B in the bass (X2211X). Of course there's no write or wrong since everyone names them differently.

If you happen to be going to A major next, it would be called G#+/B. Better voiced as G#7#5/B. Could be the enharmonic Ab depending on key also. Many many ways to spelling chords.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 7
chris mood
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chris mood
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10/22/2003 4:30 pm
yeah, I like E+/B, sounds like the most practical way to label that chord. The progression is actually pretty cool, reminds me of something you would hear in a Italian folk song.

The Book: National Music Workshop is getting 1st dibs, I'm hoping they pick it up so I don't have to spend the time and energy shopping it around. They have national distribution through Alfred, plus I work for them and they are a really good co. They bad thing w/the book is that it's not an original idea, and publishers don't like dealing with copyrighted materials, since a percentage of the profits would have to go, in this case,sheeez, Micheal Jackson. On the positive side, people will buy almost anything that has the Beatles name attached to it, and the arrangements in the book are really good and supportive of the melody. As usual, my main inspiration comes from "I can do something better then that", and I was getting tired of students walking in w/books that they shelled out $20 for of Beatles arrangements that either 1) sounded really bad, 2)totally disguised the song 3) worked on paper but were physically impossible to play on guitar.
# 8
noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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10/22/2003 10:02 pm
Oh yeah, a very nice sounding chord progression. :) You'll probably find it in a lot of music. The occurrence happens naturally in Hungarian music a lot as I-V+. Here’s something interesting though. In classical music, if you use the same chord progression with substitution, it is also i-V7. Take A harmonic minor, the movement Am6 to E7(b13). A very nice jazzy sounding progression but inside those chords sits another chord progression Fmaj7 to Cmaj7(+5). A very common substitution which sounds a lot hipper than the pervious. You can also see that Fmaj7 to Cmaj7(+5) is the same movement as the Amaj to Eaug written before. Add the natural i-V7 as the inversion of those chords. So now you get Fmaj7/A to Cmaj7(+5)/E. Reverse it and you have a sweet sounding cadence. Play the Cmaj7(+5) to Fmaj7 on the guitar and E to A on the bass. A cool trick and knowing your a jazz player I'm sure you'll appreciate that one. Technically it's a E7(b13)-Am6, if you don't have a bass player.


e:--0----1-----
b:--1----1-----
g:--1----2-----
d:--0----2-----
a:--2----0-----
e:--0---(0)<~optional


I once had a Beatles book too and yeah it didn't give the full idea of an arrangement, it was more like a fake book. Can't say it didn't help because it did but it would be nice to have something a little more towards the melodic side of the Beatles. But I have to ask what does Michael Jackson have to do with the Beatles??

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-22-2003 at 05:11 PM]
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 9
chris mood
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chris mood
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10/23/2003 6:45 am
Micheal Jackson owns the rights to the Beatles catalog. Probably not all of it, I assume the Beatles own the music they reorded on their own label (apple records?). But they (beatles) like most artists, got shafted pretty hard on their original record contract.

This book is a little different then what you were describing, it's not a transcription book, but a book of arrangements were 1 guitar plays the melody, harmony, and bass simutaneously, think aka Chet Atkins.

I'll have to apply the substitution you talked about later, when I have my guitar nearby. Sounds interesting.
# 10
John O'Carroll
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John O'Carroll
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10/23/2003 1:18 pm
I'm pretty sure Paul McCartney purchased the Beatles catalog back from Jackson, when Jacko was having financial difficulties. Sir Paul also toyed with the idea of reversing the writing credits on songs he predominantly penned with the Beatles. Lennon/McCartney was always the order in the credits; Paul wanted to change that to McCartney / Lennon on what he considered "his" songs. Don't know if that occurred though.

[Edited by John O'Carroll on 10-23-2003 at 10:30 AM]
# 11
chris mood
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chris mood
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10/23/2003 3:38 pm
[QUOTE]Originally posted by noticingthemistake
[B] Take A harmonic minor, the movement Am6 to E7(b13).

*technically A-6 is not a diatonic chord of A Harmonic minor, but a common sub borrowed from the natural minor.


e:--0----1-----
b:--1----1-----
g:--1----2-----
d:--0----2-----
a:--2----0-----
e:--0---(0)<~optional


I like the voicings here, sounds good. You tabbed the C chord as a Cmaj9#5, more closely related to E7. C+ (triad) to Fmaj7, both played in root position also sounds nice. I don't know if I would use your voicings as a final cadence though w/the F in the melody, works nice as a turnaround.

*I knew Paul McCartney expressed interest in purchasing the Beatles catalog originally, I thought Micheal Jackson out bid him. I have a hard time relating Micheal Jackson w/financial troubles though. For MJ, financial troubles means having 2 billion in the bank and 3 trillion worth of assets, compared to 4 billion in the bank and 5 trillion w/assets.

[Edited by chris mood on 10-23-2003 at 10:41 AM]
# 12
noticingthemistake
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10/23/2003 5:24 pm
Thanx for noticing that and before we confuse each other. The Am6 I wrote is with a flat 6, which is A to F. Rather than A to F#. I agree the 6th is not a common harmony for a minor tonic chord. There is a reason why it is there although I agree totally with your statement and why.

The idea behind the post was to show how a C+ to Fmaj movement could be disguised in a harmonic cadence. The C+ to Fmaj alone sounds Hungarian to me, but C+/E to F/A sounds like an altered and more intensified harmonic minor cadence. The chords in the tab below are actually E7(b13) and Am6, the C+ and F are just disguised in those chords. Whether you omit the F or not, is personal taste although I must say the F plays an idiosyncratic part in the chord movement. As you can see both chords have a 5th and a b6th. It’s while this colorful harmony plays out that the harmonic minor cadence plays below it giving it it’s distinctive sound. I’ve used it once in a tune I wrote as a final cadence but I will agree in that it’s takes a special song texture to make it work as such. The final cadence went to Am6 ending the cadence, but then returned to C major on the last chord.

About the Michael Jackson issue. If that’s true, that’s pretty messed that he owns the rights to The Beatles music when one of the members doesn’t. I don’t know the particulars but I must say that.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 13
chris mood
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10/23/2003 7:59 pm
It's not an uncommon occurence for a record company to secure the song rights of an artist they are signing. They, in turn, may sell the song rights to investors or try to market the song in commercials or tv. Yes, you can buy and sell the copyrights to songs, just like trading stock.

Some of the more famous acts who have really gotting screwed on these deals are: The Beatles, The Beach Boys (whose dad was managing the band sold the entire catalog for $30,000...not it's worth millions), John Fogerty of Creedance Clearwater Revival ( was involved in a lawsuit pending wether he had the right to perform the songs he wrote), as also was Prince, who when left his contract w/Sony was not allowed to perform material they contained the rights to. Ahh, the record business, when you get down to it the record business is above all else a business.
# 14
chris mood
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10/23/2003 8:08 pm
Aminor w/added b6 is not labeled as such very often becuase the addition of the major 3rd interval between the b6 and root gives it a bright quality, making it sound more like an inverted major 7th chord.
# 15
noticingthemistake
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10/23/2003 9:31 pm
[u]michael jackson and the beatles[/u]

Yeah I watch VH1 behind the music alot. :) The bulk of the music business is mainly a bunch of bullsh*t con-artists now.

[u]Amaddb6 spelling[/u]

Yep! E7(b13) is the same, you hardly ever see this chord written that way either. It is actually Cmaj7#5/E. I only wrote it like that because of the tab and so my explanation of how the chord progression ties into the harmonic minor cadence. I did write it as Fmaj/A at first. You don't want to neglect the spelling Amaddb6 though cause it helps when figuring out these sort of things. Without it Cmaj7#5 to Fmaj7 doesn't look much like a cadence. C would have to be a dominant, but with the help of the inversion you have E7(b13) to Amin6. Which is a cadence, for Amin does sound like home. Then you can start a new part in Cmajor (x32013), if you want a change or not. That's how I did it, but I ended it there. Different key of course. ;)

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-23-2003 at 04:38 PM]
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 16
chris mood
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chris mood
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10/24/2003 5:30 am
Good ole Cmaj7#5.....the 2nd chord of Stairway to Heaven!
# 17
Christoph
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10/24/2003 6:30 am

What up, dawgs? I was gone for a few days....what's with that circus progression. Is there a particular theory for composing something like that?

# 18
noticingthemistake
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10/24/2003 2:16 pm
Yeah, I like the sound of augmented chords even though there not used much. And before we got into talking about other stuff, I meant to ask whats on the cd for your book?? Is it you playing the Beatles tunes and then explaining them?

Hey fellow mod. If you mean the one we've been talking about, I think I pretty much explained it. If you mean the one dave first asked about Amaj to E(+5)/B. To me, it sounds sort of Hungarian since I know Hungarian music usually sharps the 5th in there fifth chord. The Hungarian major scale is 1, #2, 3, #4, 5, 6, b7. If you build a triad with the first note and the fifth note you end up with, Imaj and Vaug. In daves case Amaj is the root of the scale and E is the fifth. Another thing that separates this from a diatonic system is that the 5th is not a dominant chord, the #4 would have to be natural for it to be a b7 from the 5th.

explained: 5, b7, #2, #4 is the triad for the fifth, now convert it so you can see a chord spelling. 5 becomes 1 and we scale the intervals from there. So it's 1, 3, #5, 7, the spelling of a maj7#5 chord. This keeps the Hungarian scales from become diatonic.

The only abnormality in the whole equation that still ponders me is the inversion of the E augmented chord. B is not part of the Hungarian major scale, its B#. But having a 5th and a #5th in a chord is an abnormality in itself. In my view this may be a case of balancing the systemic sequence much like we raise the 6th in the melodic minor to make up for the intervallic distance in the harmonic minor, b6-1. In the Hungarian, it's 1-#2. Both minor 3rds, placing a 2nd in there will resolve this. The 2nd being B. Why not have it A#? Because that would create 2 tonics. In musical science a big no no, there can only be one home base.

You can even add a 2nd in the scale and play it without changing much of the texture. The 2nd acts as a natural tone and the #2 sort of becomes the blues tone of the major scale, b3. A cool addition but as for daves chord going, it’s an abnormality in musical science. I would search for a perfect equation but I am hungry. :)
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 19
chris mood
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10/24/2003 5:23 pm
The Book..I'll try and explain it one more time, becuase I'm not quite sure your understanding it. The book consists of 10 Beatles songs that were arranged to be played as instrumental peices on the guitar using basic fingerstyle techniques. Just like if you took the melody of twinkle twinkle little star and and arranged it for a 20 peice orchestra, you would have strings playing harmony, counter melodies, bass lines, variations, turnarounds, etc...except in this case I did the opposite, I took a song that was written to be played by a full band and reduced it for 1 instrument, so in this case the guitar is acting like a piano, providing all the key elements of the song (melody, harmony, bass) instead of just playing 1 element. So yes, the cd is of me playing through my compositional interpretations of these 10 songs written by the Beatles.

Theory....Good and Bad
The nice thing about theory is that if you dig deep enough you can intellectualize some compositional devices that you may not normally come up with on your own. As you had done with the E7add b13 to Aminoraddb6, sounds nice. But you have to be carefull not to over intellectualize stuff into something it isn't just so it satisfies a theoretical explanation. If I was transcibing that progression off of a recording I would definitely hear it as E7 alt to Fmaj7/A. The tonality is much to bright to be considered a minor chord, which is pretty much why you will never see Aminorw/b6 labeled that way. Play your voicing of Aminorb6 and follow it w/Aminor, now play it and follow it w/F maj7 in root pos., sounds more closely related to F to my ears.
# 20

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