What's Up !?!

Ok I see what your doing with your book now. Cool.

I agree that the Amaddb6 sounds like a Fmaj. Although I think your missing the point of why I wrote it as such. That’s all. For every inversion there is a new chord produced, or I should say named. Probably not the best way to name the chord but you can use them as variables in a new equation. All I did was place these variables in the equation to make a harmonic minor cadence. This is perfectly ok. Actually Cmaj7#5/E to Fmaj7/A is an imperfect authentic cadence. It’s strange though cause of the augmented C major chord, and it’s not a dominant. Unorthodox, but as I explained the chords can be re-written, using the inversion as the root instead, to show what it really is or could be. It’s not wrong, especially if your talking about voicing the chords in such a way. In the original the cadence is in the bass, the Cmaj7#5 and Fmaj7 would be something a guitarist could play over it as an option. Yes it’s odd and unorthodox but hey what’s wrong with that. ;)

I hear the 1st chord as being an Ealt.dominant (I usually associate tension chords w/dominates) and the 2nd chord as a Fmaj7/A, so to me this progression sounds like a cadance on the 4 chord w/the E7b13 chord being borrowed from the relative harmonic minor.
I'll have to reply to your other posts when I have more time to read thru them more carefully, your making me think to hard here.

Ok, I just composed my own "evil circus" progression using some of the chords that you guys have mentioned. I'll post it tomorrow so NTM and CM can analyze the hell out it.

I still think your missing the point though. Read this before you reply to the old message, maybe it will help make better sense of what I am saying. It's not about the key so much as it is about the voicing.

Yeah it could also be what you said and be correct, but what if in A minor instead of C major. Having a C augmented chord in C major is very weird, this happens in A harmonic minor though. Cadences signify the end of a phrase or piece and if it's in A minor, the cadence would be different. Looking at the Cmaj7#5/E to Fmaj7/A chord progression. We're in A minor and the cadence would be E-A for A minor. The tones within the inversion are the voicing of that cadence.

Take E which would be a major, or dominant. Now look at the chords in Cmaj7#5 and you have C, E, G#, and B. E, G#, and B make up a E major chord. Now you have your major triad for the fifth. C is the addition voicing, and later D can be added to make the E chord a dominant.

Next is the A, which should be minor. Now look at the notes within the Fmaj7 chord associated with A. You end up with F, A, C, and E. A, C, and E make up an A minor chord. Now you have a minor chord for a tonic. F is the additional voicing. Maybe not the favorite, because like you said it does make the A sound major sounding. A nice lift if the piece is in A minor, kinda deceptive.

So what you end up with in the end is Emaj to Amin. The harmonic minor cadence, which was disguised within those chords. Even the added notes sound like a cadence, those being C to F. If you were orchrestrating, this movement could be played on one instrument while others played the other voicings. This is really about voicing chords differently while keeping alittle tension (b6-5 in both chords).

Bring it on Christoph. :D

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-25-2003 at 10:28 AM]

I totally understand where your coming from, all I'm saying is that your theoretical explantion does not decieve the ear, although I would have to hear the chord within the entire context of the progression to make a definitive decision, your statement about the cadance existing within the relative minor makes for a strong pt., but then again the Fmaj7/A could be acting as a transition chord to C major, again, I would have to see some more information.

- I never disagreed w/your analysis of the 1st chord being an E altered dominate, again..tension chords usually sound dominate in quality to me. I would only use an analysis of Cmaj7#5/E in an extreme circumstance. If C# was in the bass, i might consider this label, but to my brain it would just be a sub for E alt.anyway. My disagreement is within the 2nd chord of the cadance being labeled a minor chord, the interval of a major 3rd is much to strong to deny, it seems to me like trying to talk someone into believing a sunny day is cloudy.

I think if your understood what I was saying you wouldn't think I was trying to convince you that Fmaj7/A is really an Amaddb6 chord. Believe me I am not trying to, and your point is correct. Even better your labeling the chord based on what you hear rather than the theory. I would probably label it the same way, but behind that way is something a little more. I know you know this but think of what a cadence is. A cadence is a way to end a phrase, not just 5-1 or whatever. You say you need more and I'm trying to give you that. Think the phrase as being in A minor and play those two chords as a cadence. Whether you call the second chord Amaddb6 or Fmaj7/A is pointless and to argue about it is folly. The point is it can signify an end to a phrase in A minor. What is beautiful about this movement is the psychological effect it has on the listener. Instead of the tension of the E7(b13) chord being resolved, it is continued on the Fmaj7/A chord. Leaving the listener with a sense of suspense and unresolved, which brings us to the C major chord next. Although the idea is there are two different phrases, the first in A minor which ends with E7(b13) to Fmaj7/A. Then a new one begins in C major. Point is the C major is not the final resolve, but Fmaj7/E. Re-voiced and renamed as Amaddb6, to make sense of a A harmonic minor cadence. You had a point when you said it works as a turnaround or a transition, but it can also be used as a cadence with this effect. Just listen to it.

Here’s a chord progression where it will work. Am - Dmaj - Am - G7 - Am - Dmaj - E7(b13) - Amaddb6.

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
What is beautiful about this movement is the psychological effect it has on the listener. Instead of the tension of the E7(b13) chord being resolved, it is continued on the Fmaj7/A chord.

*I agree

Leaving the listener with a sense of suspense and unresolved, which brings us to the C major chord next.

*this is where I disagree, if the next chord is C maj. then I would defintely label this chord as F.


Although the idea is there are two different phrases, the first in A minor which ends with E7(b13) to Fmaj7/A. Then a new one begins in C major. Point is the C major is not the final resolve, but Fmaj7/E. Re-voiced and renamed as Amaddb6, to make sense of a A harmonic minor cadence.

*your stretching things here.

Here’s a chord progression where it will work. Am - Dmaj - Am - G7 - Am - Dmaj - E7(b13) - Amaddb6.

*Dude, this chord progression sounds awfull, I hope you meant to write Dminor instead of major.

Looks like you noticed the mistake! (that joke's never gunna get old)

Leaving the listener with a sense of suspense and unresolved, which brings us to the C major chord next.

*this is where I disagree, if the next chord is C maj. then I would defintely label this chord as F.

Although the idea is there are two different phrases, the first in A minor which ends with E7(b13) to Fmaj7/A. Then a new one begins in C major. Point is the C major is not the final resolve, but Fmaj7/E. Re-voiced and renamed as Amaddb6, to make sense of a A harmonic minor cadence.

*your stretching things here.

No your not getting it. Your not reading what I am saying and that's why. The phrase in A minor and the phrase in C major are completely seperate. So you won't name it F if it ends the phrase in A minor. It has to be A, ends with the tonic. The new phrase, like a new song, starts with the C major chord. The Aminaddb6 and C major are not linked in any way. To get that, Read it, take it for what I said (not what you can make it into) and you will get it. :)

The chord progression is right, it is D major. The same movement Imin - IVmaj - Vmaj happens in 'Sweet Dreams are made of these'. I believe that one is Cmin to Abmaj to Gmaj. Try playing a Bm7b5 instead of the last D major if you want a smoother sound. Bm7b5 seems to go to E7(b13) alittle smoother. The dramatic effect is what I was going for though.

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
[quote]The chord progression is right, it is D major. The same movement Imin - IVmaj - Vmaj happens in 'Sweet Dreams are made of these'. I believe that one is Cmin to Abmaj to Gmaj.

Cmin to Ab to G is cool, thats' 1 b6 5, not 1 maj4 maj5...that sounds like poop, especially w/the G7 chord in there.

What the h3ll!! Half my post is missing. No wonder that doesn't make any sense. Yes, D major is right. Amin to Dmajor to E7. If you don't like the G7 don't put it in there. Try it with Amin/C to G7/B. You may like that better. The sweet dreams C.P. was another I wrote in case you didn't like that one. Where the IVmaj is sub'd for VImaj. All better.

sounds better, try this;

Amin, D, E7/B, Amin, G7, E7, Amin...etc.

Yeah that one is pretty sweet. Try the first E7 chord with a first inversion instead of a second so it's. Amin to Dmaj - E7/G# - Amin. That sounds pretty cool too, alittle bit of a stretch but not bad. This one is pretty cool too if you want an asecnding sort of feel. Amin/E (002210) to Dmaj/F# (2x0232) to E7/G# (420100) to Amin. The second half is cool too but I played it like this and it sounds really cool also. Amin to G7/B (x20001) to E7(b13)/B (x20110) or (this is cool too) E7b13/C (x30100) to Aminaddb6 (x02211). If the G7 chord sounds alittle too dramatic (melody would have to permit), but try Fmaj/C (x33211).

Even as you play through that chord progression and go to C major (x32003), you can hear how the vibe changes when you hit that C major after the Aminaddb6. That's it. ;)

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-27-2003 at 04:36 PM]

You can even try voicing the G7 and E7 movement alittle different. Here what I added.

Try the G7 as a G9, played as (x20201). A nice voicing for that progression. Adds alittle singing tone to the chord which sounded kinda bland.

E7(b13)/C becomes E7#9(b13), played as (x30103). I like the voicing for the very reason it adds alittle singing tone to that half of the movement. Also builds to the suspence of going to C major 2 chords later.

Just a thought.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-27-2003 at 05:11 PM]

I like all your ideas, they sound nice, it's hard to make the maj.4 chord work in minor

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
Amin/E (002210) to Dmaj/F# (2x0232) to E7/G# (420100) to Amin.

You might want to try thinning out your voicings here, a lot or repetitive notes here, sounds very thick on the guitar.
Amin/E (0x221x), D/F# (2x023x), E7/G# (4x010x) Amin (x0221x)

try this.
Amin, D, G7, C, F, B7, E7, Amin.

*you could even do something like Christoph did and switch the 6 chord and 5/5 around

Amin, D, G7, C, B7, F, E7, Amin.

Originally posted by chris mood

try this.
Amin, D, G7, C, F, B7, E7, Amin.

That sounds very classical when you pluck the notes individually. Nice. Actually, it sounds like something Pink Floyd would do, something from "Dark Side of the Moon". The D major puts it out of whack.

Originally posted by chris mood
I like all your ideas, they sound nice, it's hard to make the maj.4 chord work in minor

Yeah it is. Using inversion have an uncanny way of making chord progressions that normally wouldn't fit together possible. Also they can make your sound alot thicker and smoother, like you said.

I like how they make them smoother particularly because it's easier to write a melody (in my opinion) over it and give it more attention. As you can probably hear they are softer and less jumpy, so they don't pull the listener to there attention. With a nice melody, the chord progression happens almost without the listener even noticing it. A key in the pyschology of music. I love it.

Like I would play the second as such:

e:--3--2--3--3--2--0--2--3--
b:--1--3--5--5--4--x--3--1--
g:--2--2--4--5--4--5--4--2--
d:--2--0--3--5--x--3--0--2--
a:--0--0--x--x--0--0--0--0--
e:--------3--3--------------


try this.
Amin, D, G7, C, F, B7, E7, Amin.

*you could even do something like Christoph did and switch the 6 chord and 5/5 around

Amin, D, G7, C, B7, F, E7, Amin.

These are nice, very moving and I do like them. I can tell your a jazz musician just from the way you move from chord to chord. D - G7 - C. However try playing the C as a minor chord before going to B7 instead. In the first one, play both C and F as minor chords. And play the F in first inversion (x03211). Even try the B7 as Bb7, in the first especially. Kinda like that too, I dunno.

Amin, D, G7, C, F, B7, E7, Amin.

*you could even do something like Christoph did and switch the 6 chord and 5/5 around

Amin, D, G7, C, B7, F, E7, Amin.

I don't know if I was all that clear in that previous post on what I meant about rearranging the chords a bit. So I'll post it better, although I do like what you got. Here's something alittle more exotic and kinda has more of a minor tune to it.

The first one: Amin, D, G7, C, F, B7, E7, Amin. Here's how I altered it. Amin, D, G7, Cm, Fm (x33111), Bb7 (x13131), E7, Amin. The second one is the same except rearrange the Bb7, and the Fm (133111). Even try taking out the Fm in the chord progression altogether, I like this alittle better cause it fits easier the way I am playing it. Try that.

You know what it reminds me of, like tossing a boomerang or something like that. It gradually builds until you hit that C minor and then it works it's way back to A minor again. I dig it.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-28-2003 at 12:33 PM]

Originally posted by noticingthemistake

Amin, D, G7, C, B7, F, E7, Amin.

These are nice, very moving and I do like them. I can tell your a jazz musician just from the way you move from chord to chord.

If I wanted to play that as a jazz progression I would probably do something like this:

Amin7 (xx7988), D7 (xx7778), G7 (xx5767), F#7sus4 (xx4657), Fmaj7 (xx3335), B7#5#9 (xx78810), E7#9 (x7678x), Amin/maj7 (XX6555).

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-29-2003 at 12:27 PM]

Originally posted by chris mood
If I wanted to play that as a jazz progression I would probably do something like this:

Amin7 (xx7988), D7 (xx7778), G7 (xx5767), F#7sus4 (xx4657), Fmaj7 (xx3335), B7#5#9 (xx78810), E7#9 (x7678x), Amin/maj7 (XX6555).

I'll have to wait til I have my guitar near to see how that sounds. In my head it sounds good though, alot of chromatic voice movements so I can't think of it exactly. The first one sounded jazzy cause of the II-V7-I right in the beginning.

Here's another where a Major IV chord sounds good in a minor key. Am - E7 - Gmaj - Dmaj. And yeah I edited your post before because you missed the italics code, and you post was kind of hard to read.