Is instrumental guitar a viable genre?


RandyEllefson
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RandyEllefson
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05/12/2013 5:12 pm
I wrote a blog on this and wondered what others thought.

Can you get anywhere in this genre without playing a million notes per second?
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# 1
paul sissener
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paul sissener
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05/12/2013 7:22 pm
Well, Half a million notes per second would probably be enough though... Just kidding.
nice blog by the way.
Some other names : Malmsteen, Carlton, Di Meola, Scofield, Rypdal, Pass, Kessel, ....
They have made it but, possible for a newcomer now ? To make a living on it would be quite a challenge I would say, even more now than ever. These guys all live on their almost daily live performances now. To make money on CD sales is more and more "past history".
# 2
Stringybark
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05/12/2013 10:12 pm
I admit I know very little about the professional music scene, but I have heard that most musicians who are not given the 'honour' of airtime on major radio stations because they do not have big contracts with the big music promoters, have to make their living from live gigs in relatively small venues like clubs etc. They then supplement their income with the CD's or mp3's they sell online.

I listened to your playing on Youtube just now, and I wish I could play half as well, but I understand your frustration: you would love to be rewarded for what you love to do, and yet that is a difficult task to achieve.
The accidental guitarist.
# 3
treeder
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treeder
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05/13/2013 12:27 am
Two words for you all... Mark Kroos. YouTube this guy, he's nothing less than a musicial genius. I can't say anymore.

Rock on!

Tim
# 4
Stringybark
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05/13/2013 6:55 am
Originally Posted by: treederTwo words for you all... Mark Kroos. YouTube this guy, he's nothing less than a musicial genius. I can't say anymore.

Rock on!

Tim


Yes, he's pretty damn good! It seems we do not have a shortage of artistic talent on our planet Earth, and this might be the crux of the frustration of finding recognition in this vast field of talent. It is not all just about talent competing against so much other talent, but another element in finding wider recognition is also called 'luck'.

It's not that you are not good enough, or not as good as this or that guitarist or artist. It's just that they rose to the top through various channels that were not available to others.

We cannot discount luck when it comes to finding success and due recognition of one's talents, no matter what genre of music.
The accidental guitarist.
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Elliott Jeffries
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05/13/2013 1:05 pm
You mentioned becoming a successful musician by luck and rising through channels not available to others. I believe if you asked these people how they did it, it would be more like they worked really hard, looked for opportunities, found out about the business and learned what they needed to do make their goals happen.
# 6
Stringybark
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05/13/2013 2:57 pm
Originally Posted by: Elliott JeffriesYou mentioned becoming a successful musician by luck and rising through channels not available to others. I believe if you asked these people how they did it, it would be more like they worked really hard, looked for opportunities, found out about the business and learned what they needed to do make their goals happen.


You are probably right on that.

Visualize what you want to happen and start looking for and creating those opportunities.
The accidental guitarist.
# 7
JeffS65
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05/13/2013 11:41 pm
Originally Posted by: RandyEllefsonI wrote a blog on this and wondered what others thought.

Can you get anywhere in this genre without playing a million notes per second?


Good points but it does seem to be focused on rock instrumentalists.

The to your question about getting somewhere in the genre without playing a million notes per second; well, these big three have very strong abilities but do one thing few really ever to well, write good melodies.

Eric Johnson is the king of this. Writes very nice, major sounding melodies that are very appealing.

The point is; while the actual hope of getting big as an instrumentalist as that much harder than just 'making it', if it can be done, it is done on the back of a well written and memorable song. Just like any other song.

I loved shredding in the 80's. By that, I loved playing that way. I just couldn't listen to it. I need a song.

So I do think it is much harder to make it as an instrumental playing in the rock genre but it's always about the ability to remember the song.

Now, if you talk about outside of rock, the doors open so much more.
# 8
Stringybark
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05/19/2013 9:36 am
After reading some interviews of some of the bigger guitarists out there, they all said that the key to success is to make sure that you have an emotive melody that touches your audience's heart.

It is definitely not about the ability to play faster and more notes then the next guy. It is about the music itself. Music is all about feeling. It's not about watching a race car racing around a track and clocking the speed ( though some people get an emotional high out of it), it's about the emotions it brings up in your audience.

Find some interviews of your favourite guitarists who you think are appealing to the public because of their finger speed. You might be surprised by what they think made them successful.

Then, listen to all those guitar solos in your genre that were or are huge successes, and consider how they make you feel when you listen to them.

Are you really only impressed by the technical guitar work, or is it the melody that touches you and raises the hair on the back of your neck.

Want to succeed as a solo guitarist? Then touch people's emotions with your playing. It usually won't be the super speedy guitarists that do this well. So, you can slow down a bit :)
The accidental guitarist.
# 9
Kasperow
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05/19/2013 10:34 am
Originally Posted by: StringybarkIt is definitely not about the ability to play faster and more notes then the next guy. It is about the music itself. Music is all about feeling. It's not about watching a race car racing around a track and clocking the speed ( though some people get an emotional high out of it), it's about the emotions it brings up in your audience.

Essentially, this applies to all music. It's not so much about what you play. It's about how you play it. Sure, you may be able to play hundreds of notes per second, but what good will that do you if you don't play with any conviction at all? I'd rather listen to a slow tune played with lots of conviction and emotion than a fast tune played at a thousand bpm but without any conviction at all. Why? Because the tune played with conviction goes right into you and makes you feel what the guitarist playing the tune wants you to feel. The other tune might also be good, but it most likely won't be as emotionally touching.
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SebastBerg
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05/19/2013 1:59 pm
Here's something to remember. Some great composers in the past wrote some crazy songs with very fast series of notes but very few people know those songs.
But almost everyone know the easy, slow, catchy melodies like Twinkle twinkle little star. :)
It's not about speed. Just emotions.
If its fast its fast, its ok. But it is not what is important.

Joe Satriani's song Surfing with the alien his a good exemple of "needed" speed to go with the emotion of the song. Its fast and it fits the mood. It really feels like we are surfing, filled with adrenaline.
That's one of the reason he's out there rocking for the world and
those thousands of crazy fast shredders you can find on youtube are sitting infront of a webcam.
# 11
Stringybark
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05/20/2013 3:57 am
Originally Posted by: SebastBergHere's something to remember. Some great composers in the past wrote some crazy songs with very fast series of notes but very few people know those songs.
But almost everyone know the easy, slow, catchy melodies like Twinkle twinkle little star. :)
It's not about speed. Just emotions.
If its fast its fast, its ok. But it is not what is important.

Joe Satriani's song Surfing with the alien his a good exemple of "needed" speed to go with the emotion of the song. Its fast and it fits the mood. It really feels like we are surfing, filled with adrenaline.
That's one of the reason he's out there rocking for the world and
those thousands of crazy fast shredders you can find on youtube are sitting infront of a webcam.


Well said, mate :)
The accidental guitarist.
# 12
maggior
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05/20/2013 12:45 pm
Originally Posted by: SebastBergJoe Satriani's song Surfing with the alien his a good exemple of "needed" speed to go with the emotion of the song. Its fast and it fits the mood. It really feels like we are surfing, filled with adrenaline.
That's one of the reason he's out there rocking for the world and
those thousands of crazy fast shredders you can find on youtube are sitting infront of a webcam.


It's interesting that you bring Satriani up. Though he can shred, he writes awesome catchy melodies. He also writes really catchy guitar riffs. Just about every song of his opens up with a relatively simple catchy riff that mortals like you and I can play. Eventually this will lead to an insane shredding solo with massive amounts of whammy bar abuse, but I find it's the catchy riffs and melodies of his that I can easily recall.

His ability to write catchy melodies is what differentiates him from many of his peers.
# 13
RandyEllefson
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05/22/2013 12:01 am
I hear what you're saying and agree. But at the risk of sound conceited, I feel like I write very catchy, musical stuff but haven't gotten anywhere really, aside from a few endorsements.

How do you guys account for guys like Rusty Cooley getting so much attention? That was part of what I meant in the blog. I see guys like that getting talked about a lot and I don't understand why. It just seems like nothing but fast stuff to me. We all seem to be agreeing that doesn't work, and yet it does to an extent.
Like riffs? Melody? Shred? Free mp3s? Acoustic guitars galore? Download tunes from my new acoustic album, classical guitar album, or hard rock albums at www.randyellefson.com
# 14
Stringybark
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05/22/2013 12:24 am
Originally Posted by: RandyEllefsonI hear what you're saying and agree. But at the risk of sound conceited, I feel like I write very catchy, musical stuff but haven't gotten anywhere really, aside from a few endorsements.

How do you guys account for guys like Rusty Cooley getting so much attention? That was part of what I meant in the blog. I see guys like that getting talked about a lot and I don't understand why. It just seems like nothing but fast stuff to me. We all seem to be agreeing that doesn't work, and yet it does to an extent.


Maybe those guys do a lot of self-promotion? They go out there and talk to those who can put them into the public eye?

Do some analysis on those guys that get talked about a lot.
Where are the being talked about? How could they have achieved that? By knocking on those doors first?

Very few people are 'discovered' by others and then talked about. It is often as a result of doing lots of self-promotion that starts giving you the limelight.

Furthermore, just because you think you have a catchy tune, that doesn't mean that the public out there agrees with you.

Ask any artist and they will usually say that the public loves that particular piece of music or painting or sculpture, but the artist him or herself very often thinks that those adored creations are not at all his or her favourites.

The ultimate judge is not you, but those who buy your music ( or painting, sculpture etc.)
The accidental guitarist.
# 15
RandyEllefson
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05/22/2013 12:50 am
Originally Posted by: StringybarkIt is often as a result of doing lots of self-promotion that starts giving you the limelight.[/QUOTE]

I actually did most of what those guys were doing years ago and just about killed myself doing some of that and eventually quit because it didn't help and made me miserable.

[QUOTE=Stringybark]Furthermore, just because you think you have a catchy tune, that doesn't mean that the public out there agrees with you.

Ask any artist and they will usually say that the public loves that particular piece of music or painting or sculpture, but the artist him or herself very often thinks that those adored creations are not at all his or her favourites.

The ultimate judge is not you, but those who buy your music ( or painting, sculpture etc.)


Actually the public has been far kinder to me than I am, but that wasn't the point. For me, I only see guys who play fast or who are already big names talked about much and it has suggested to me that you can't get people "behind you" without just being a show off.
Like riffs? Melody? Shred? Free mp3s? Acoustic guitars galore? Download tunes from my new acoustic album, classical guitar album, or hard rock albums at www.randyellefson.com
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JeffS65
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05/22/2013 2:16 am
Originally Posted by: RandyEllefsonHow do you guys account for guys like Rusty Cooley getting so much attention? That was part of what I meant in the blog. I see guys like that getting talked about a lot and I don't understand why. It just seems like nothing but fast stuff to me. We all seem to be agreeing that doesn't work, and yet it does to an extent.


There is always room for stunt-guitar playing. Take Michael Angelo (Batio). Especially in the 80's. It was a very well executed, well practiced trick.

In the past, I knew Michael reasonably well and talked about this stuff a few times and honestly, he didn't see it much differently than I said above. That it was kind of a trick.

I mean, he loved technical playing but not for the sake of only being technical but for a song as it fits. That's what he wanted to do but not always what he was able to do...

The point is, there will always be people that like that. Guitar players are competitive.

I've told the joke here a couple of time but -
Q: How many guitar players does it take to screw in a lightbulb.
A: 10. One to screw it in and nine to say they can do it better and faster.

Speedy playing attracts people. It just does. However, it limits an audience too. Rusty Cooley has an audience among those who dig technical playing. Paul Gilbert had a career.
# 17
Slipin Lizard
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05/22/2013 3:03 am
Randy, I listened to your tune "The Key"... one thing I noticed is that after the main intro is over, the guitar solo that continues seems really under-mixed. If you're going for the guitar solo as the main feature, it really needs to stand out. Also, you do seem to be getting a bit into the dreaded "wall of sound"... I think you could probably benefit from working with a talented producer. Someone who may bring out your playing by mixing/producing your music in ways you haven't thought of.

The comments about needing to be melodic are spot on. Check out this tune by Satriani: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79VZR1iBEg0

I showed that video to my wife and she liked it so much she immediately bought the song on i-Tunes. If you notice as well, the guitar is very prominent in the mix.

I think being melodic is part of the equation... but sadly I do think that being able to play fast is also part of it. Its kind of like figure-skating... no matter how smooth and flowing your moves and routine are, you're just not going to win if you can't do the big tricks, like a quad. The other part is showmanship (we're back to guitar playing now, you're on your own if you've decided to take up figure skating!). Playing great is one thing, but especially with that style of guitar, you need to be able to put on some sort of show. As Steve Vai says, "take your strengths and exaggerate them".

Lastly, you have to be comfortable in your own skin. Personally, I think its almost as if the harder you "try" to make it, the less likely you are to succeed. If you play for the joy of it, and just involve yourself in endeavors that allow you to express your passion, then its more likely that success will follow, and at least you had fun if it doesn't. God that sounds depressing, doesn't it?
# 18
Elliott Jeffries
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05/22/2013 1:18 pm
Don't kill yourself trying to live up to something you might not be able to. But then also strive for your dreams or goals. Part of the journey is finding where you fit in the grand scheme of things. Running up against walls is what you want even though it may seem pointless if you fail more than once. Every once in awhile those walls can be scaled. Sweep picking is something that seemed impossible for me and now I can do it. It just takes consistent use of your energy. Don't try to do anything in one day but it's OK to try to do it in one day. In other words, have urgency when you're inspired and relax if it takes longer than you hoped. Pace yourself and don't forget those around you.
# 19
RandyEllefson
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05/24/2013 12:35 am
Jeff - that's interesting about the "stunt" playing. I never thought of it that way. Personally I get bored doing technical stuff too much.

Slipin - one thing other guys do is really simple backing music, which is okay but I prefer strong riffs with melody that I want people to hear, too, as the leads go with them melodically, but it presents a big challenge getting all of it to be heard. I've mixed up instrumentation more in more recent tunes to avoid that wall of sound you mentioned. That's partly from my background in metal where two double-tracked riffs are always there. I've tried to switch it up more.

Interesting points guys. Thanks!

I don't think lack of melody is my issue based on the comments I usually get (from strangers, not dear old mom), though everyone's got an opinion. I didn't like that Satch song at all, for example.
Like riffs? Melody? Shred? Free mp3s? Acoustic guitars galore? Download tunes from my new acoustic album, classical guitar album, or hard rock albums at www.randyellefson.com
# 20

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