a good ol' love song

Here's a song I need help with for a title:

Love Song
Raven Xalus

Living in fantasy with you
Knowing that this could last forever
If we make that way baby
I'm dying to know what you love
So I can give to you for the last time
Before you go

When loving you is like torment
And when you go it's relief
But something about you
Makes me feel so new

Because I know that this ain't the end
We can survive another blow from reality
If we imagine a world where everything
Was just the way we want it

Trapped between love and life
I know being with you is hard
So make it easier
I want to show you that I can love forever
But it's hard to show you what I feel
Don't let me fade away again

When loving you is like torment
And when you go it's relief
But something about you
Makes me feel so new

Because I know that this ain't the end
We can survive another blow from reality
If we imagine a world where everything
Was just the way we want it

Dreams won't take us
Away from this Hell
We need more
I need you like a drug

When loving you is like torment
And when you go it's relief
But something about you
Makes me feel so new

Because I know that this ain't the end
We can survive another blow from reality
If we imagine a world where everything
Was just the way we want it

You write an f load better than me. Thats all I know. Keep it up. :cool:

I don't know what to say!
I thought songs were suppose to rythme.
If you think love is like a drug, etc., it isn't love.
It's a false sense of security and drugs.
You feel good for the moment. All warm and tingly.
It's not love, it's infactuation.

A well know singer/song writer once told me, you must experience life before you can write about it. It's true. How can you write about something you know nothing about?

I guess as long as you are having fun with your writing that's all that matters for now. You have some usual thoughts and I suggest you take a song writing or even a poetry writing course. Just try to writing your story in ryhme. Then put it to music.

As for a title, how about "Love Escape".

Catchya Later!

Well in my opinion songs don't have to rhyme at all, infact I generally find it annoying and cliched when songs have too much rhyming or a rhyme scheme or something lame like that. Repeating consenant sounds and flow are MUCH more important than rhyming, rhyming is just a cheap way to achieve those. Why restrict yourself to some old tired pattern and there can only be so many songs about "love" that rhyme. Who cares about rhyme, it's good to step outside the realm of convention (even though I wouldn't exactly consider doing away with rhyme schemes as stepping to far out of convention considering it isn't like it's "edgy" anymore).

Find your own voice, and if that voice ends up being some tired cliche then at least you know what not to do or maybe thats ok with you. Most people like familiar things, they like what we all know (like rhyming) new things scare them, so if your writing to sell songs or some stupid thing like that then by all means rework every idea you have ever had so that it rhymes. Why do you think you can hum along with pretty much any pop song with in the first five seconds of hearing it? We all know how it goes before we have even heard it.

Write something that scares the crap outta people. A lot of zappa's songs STILL scare the crap out of people and it's been twenty years since he wrote a song. I know people who can't even listen to his stuff cause it makes them so uncomfortable, it's great. People will try to tell you that there is something wrong with you if your music does this but the problem is with them.

...

Anyways that was my rant on being original and not listening to people, even me. Do what you want. If you find something that really strikes deep with people, negatively or otherwise explore it. But thats not to say you should make music for the purpose of hurting others. Unless of course thats what you want to do. But generally in my opinion writers write to get a specific response from specific people, blind firing isn't exactly good, or classy writing.

Just my two cents.

Drew,

If you are not rythming, then it's not a song. That's what a song is, puting rythming words to music while promoting a theme. Otherwise, you are merely jotting down a bunch of personal thoughts. A diary! Since you are not interested in selling a song, then it's a diary that you don't want anyone to read. You are writing for yourself.

That's fine, but don't try to all it a song. It's not. Furthermore, I find that people who criticize without conforming to the basic structure of songwriting actually feel they can't. They feel they can't tell their story in rythme with a beat, so they don't try and criticzes those who do.

Anyone can write in rythme. For some it's more difficult, but the more you do the easier it becomes. Try it! Don't knock it!

This is not to discourage, but to encourage!

I can rhyme, I just wrote a song that rhymes. It's about vikings, and it rhymes because it was a deliberate style choice.

And just so you know A LOT of songs don't rhyme. it doesn't make them not songs just because you don't want them to be. Like I said I don't have a problem with people rhyming read my post I said do what you want, and don't listen to other people. I didn't say I didn't want other people to hear the things I write, but I really don't care if you like it or if you buy it, cause I'm not selling it, you can listen if you want.

I can rhyme, Im not about to say that I am a crazy good rhymer or anything but I honestly don't find it that pleasing. A lot of great songs (and poems) don't rhyme they are still songs.

It is incredibly closed minded to say that if something doesn't fit your narrow definition of song that it is somehow not a song. Words over music = song, hell what about songs that don't have words they don't rhyme at all ever.

There is nothing wrong with being a traditionalist until you start telling people that what they are doing isn't good or correct because they don't conform to your traditionalist view of song writing.

I also should clarify and say that I don't mean never rhyme, if it fits and sounds good go for it. My view is though that you should find the best fit for your idea and not for the rhyme scheme. A word may qualify as a synonym and still not mean the same thing. Context is incredibly important, connotation, the words surrounding a word can change it's meaning. I don't think I need to go through all the ways you can manipulate language and the feeling of phrases and passages by the words you use. But there are things you can do other than rhyme and you certainly don't need to rhyme to utilize them.

And I am not talking about a "dairy" thank you very much. You can create a flow and cadence with words without rhyming. rhyming doesn't magically make things songs, it is one technique used by writers among many many others. What abut alliteration? thats not rhyming but it can create incredibly compelling phrases in a song, especially if the concept your expressing is interesting.

and this next part is on a personal level. No offense songman but please stop being so condescending. Your not here to save me or anyone else from our evil, non-rhyming ways or to give use life lessons on being more upbeat and happy. I am an educated, intelligent person and I don't need someone else to think for me, I think just fine thank you. I value other points of view because I understand that my way of thinking is not the only way to approach thought and I spend a lot of time reading and exposing myself to new experiences so that I have the largest possible spectrum of experience to draw upon when thinking about my environment.

When critiquing someone else it is only constructive if you approach it from their perspective, not your own and to understand their goals when writing. Then you provide feedback based on those goals and how you believe that person can better reach them. Otherwise you are just trying to create a bunch of yous, which is fairly narcissistic. I'm not calling anyone names, a narcissist would be doing it on purpose... sorta.

as a fellow song writer, i agree with drew...perhaps there is a great deal of difference between the interests involved in music...but that's why we have so many different kinds of music...ive listened to many songs from bands that don'r rhyme and still inspires me...the older stuff i did arent all rhythmic as well (at least in terms of lyrics)..perhaps there is a need for a more open view in regards to music and songwriting..not to mention, respect...

Call what you want, but in my book, if it doesn't rythme, it's not a song.
It's a short story with background music.

As for music without words, they are not songs. They are called instrumentals. It's music.

You can word it anyway you want to make yourself feel good about it, but a song rythmes.

Well at least you learned something about being more open minded.


Seriously you realized you've just told everyone that your critiques of their material are completely useless because you are completely unable to comprehend another's point of view and therefore not able to effectively talk about anyone else's work in terms of their goals and musical preference. Not only that but your point of view is so incredibly narrow minded that you cannot even work as an example of an average response to someones music. There for you can't even help people who want to sell their music by acting as a reference for some demographic of the population. Because you refuse to except new interpretations of your old ideas into your thought process you have become mentally impotent, at least when it comes to critiquing music.

Of course I suppose you could help someone become just like you, however after your last post/tantrum I doubt the existence of a willing candidate.

Perhaps me and you aren't that different though, for instance my first love is drawing, and other forms of visual art. In that sense my interest are extremely traditional in the sense that I strive to become exceedingly proficient technically. I have been studying anatomy for the past two years in order to better (more accurately) express the human figure. I now go to a design/art school at the a University. Although I wish to follow in the foot steps of the people I hold to be some of the greatest artist of all time (Bouguereau, Raphael, Michelangelo, Goya to name a few of my favs) I would certainly not say that this is a common goal in the art world today. In fact realism has been "out of style" for more than a century. It is not taught in art schools in any direct matter, and is even discouraged by many (well meaning) professors. I have a very traditionalist approach to art.
NONE of my peers share my desire, I know no other person at my school who has interest in realism (I don't mean there are none anywhere obviously but they are hard to find in art schools). However, I don't let other peoples opinions, biases, and the preferences of the entire art world dissuade me from the goals I have for myself. I have set these goals based on what I deem valuable to me and what I wish to achieve with my work. However, that does not mean that I consider contemporary painting wrong or incorrect. Do I think some people can't draw... well yeah because some people can't, just as some people can't rhyme I suppose. However that doesn't mean that their painting is not a painting, nor does it mean that my painting is not a painting. They are both paintings. When critiquing some else's painting I don't say, "Well you drew everything completely wrong" when they have constructed a abstract work of art. I approach their work with the expectations they have for their work and try to help them reach their personal goals, by giving them feed back based on those goals. I do not interject my own goals onto their painting because my ideas have no legitimacy when applied to someone else's work.

The same is true for song writing, you can rhyme because thats what is important to you and I can put lyrics that don't rhyme into my songs and we are both still writing songs. However to critique my work by saying that it does not rhyme is not fair or correct because my intent was not to rhyme.

Perhaps it was better to just explain it to you in an anecdote in stead of just calling you closed minded, perhaps you just simply didn't understand.

But you can see now I hope how I have no need to reword definitions to make myself feel better. There are always two definitions of a concept, such as "song". A private and a public. Your private is what that word means to you while your public definition needs to encompass a wider spectrum of ideas, or as I have already said you become mentally impotent when expressing your self and talking to others about the concept. There is really only one definition I guess but it's just a way of saying you can have your song and I can have mine and we both still have songs.

Originally Posted by: SongmanCall what you want, but in my book, if it doesn't rythme, it's not a song.
It's a short story with background music.

As for music without words, they are not songs. They are called instrumentals. It's music.

You can word it anyway you want to make yourself feel good about it, but a song rythmes.

If it don't rhyme it's not a song? Funny.

Nice song man.

songman, now you're really ticking me off. :mad: Us "creators" don't do what a BOOK tells us to. We write songs in our style, and who gives a damn if it doesn't rhyme? I have music to all my songs and it still sounds good when I sing it and play it with my band. Get off our backs with "songs must rhyme". God, how many songs have you posted lately? If you wanna see a song I wrote that rhymes, see my latest thread. It's titled "a song not so depressing". Guess why? So you wouldn't jump on me saying "ENJOY YOUR LIFE ITS THE LAST ONE YOU HAVE!!!" Listen, I've said it a MILLION times before, let people have their own style. We are going to write the way we want to, NOT the way you want to. PLEASE just give us a few tips besides "ENJOY LIFE" and "MAKE SONG RHYME". Don't mean any offense, but I get pissed easily. And you're pissing me off. And nobody here in da hood likes me when I'm pissed. Neither should you.

Songman, what I'm trying to say is, we know you have an opinion. We know that you want us to agree with your opinions. We respect that. But sorry, that's not the way things work anymore. Give us your opinions lightly. Don't go telling us that we should read a book to tell us how to write. And I speak for all of us songwriters here. I'm sure they don't like some of your opinions as well. That's the way it works. Some people will agree with you, some people won't. Just take into consideration what you're about to say before you speak you're mind. God it feels like I'm counseling my son, if I had one. Listen, I respect that you have an opinion, but being redundant (with me especially) with the telling me to rhyme and not being depressing and not writing about history and ****, it just gets annoying you know? Sorry once again if this post is of any offense to you.

Songman, I wanna get along. I don't you to alienate yourself around here. This is a good place here. You can learn a lot and stuff. The problem is, you're trying to be the songwriting advice mod around here. So post a few songs, quit giving advice that is your own opinion, and let's be friends, okay? :)

-Raven

song
noun
1 [C] a usually short piece of music with words which are sung:
to sing a song
a love/folk/pop song
See also swansong.

2 [U] the act of singing, or singing when considered generally:
He was so happy he wanted to burst/break into song (= start singing).

3 [C or U] the musical sound that a bird makes:
bird song
A thrush's song was the only sound to break the silence.

(ref-cambridge dictionaries online)

I am not the one that appears to be angry. Everything I have written, I stated it was my opinion and that everyone has one. I merely said in my book, songs rythme. This is my opinion.

There have been, so called songs, that have been very successful that do not rythme. However, you must all agree, that there are a lot more successful songs out there that do rythme. Many more, millions more.

In the beginning I asked, "Who are you writing for?", which I never got a reply. If you are writing for yourself and friends, fine. Your family and friends will like whatever you write, but if you are going to write to sell your songs, then you need to look (as do the labels) at what sells and songs that rythme sell far more than those that don't. This is fact!

There are a few and only a few of you in this songwriting group, that in my opinon, have the talent to make it in the songwriting business. Performers maybe, songwriting no. Changing your writing style is not changing your personality. You should try different styles and different music. You are still the one with the same thoughts and feelings. Style is how you put in down, how it's performed. The labels will have your song performed anyway they think will sell. You may write heavy metal and the label may make it jazz.

You don't see yourselfs as being closed minded, but you certainly are just because you don't like my opinion or should I say you don't like me or just don't want to try something different. Fine. I just thought that I might be able to help a couple of you make a start in the business. In my opinion, you obviously have a little growing up to do first.

I really don't care if you take my advise or not. It's whatever you want to do. I am not trying to force you to take on my way of thinking. I already made my way with successful songs, short stories, & poems. I was only trying to help.

As far as being friends, I don't see how on earth we could be friends when none of us ever met. I don't think we ever will meet, unless any of you are near Nashville. I will say, I don't consider any of you an enemy.

I guess I better just stop trying to help, since anyone with a different opinion than yours upsets you so. I don't want to be responsible for any of you having a breakdown.

I may look in from time to time, but I will keep my unwelcomed opinions to myself. Sorry, I couldn't help.

Keep on the Sunny Side!

Originally Posted by: Songman
You can word it anyway you want to make yourself feel good about it, but a song rythmes.[/QUOTE]

This is obviously a hostile comment and it was made by you before anyone ever made similar comments towards you.

And anyway I hope you aren't referring to me with

Originally Posted by: SongmanI am not the one that appears to be angry[/QUOTE] Because I am not angry in the least. I can see way Raven might be a bit angry but that brings me to my next point.

You claim that everyone is ganging up on you because we

Originally Posted by: Songmandon't like my opinion or should I say you don't like me[/QUOTE]
Then I would have to point out that you obviously (at least judging by evidence found din your posts on this forum) have something personally against Raven or should I say, the type of person you perceive raven to be. This is evident in the fact that other members here have written songs that do not rhyme all the way through and you never even mentioned it to them. In fact in the case of Grizzlymint's song "High School Days" he does not rhyme all the way through or chain himself to a particular scheme and you told him he should copyright it. So please do not try the old trick of rubber and glue, it doesn't make for a good argument.

Perhaps your getting so much resentment because your opinion is not as "popular" as you thought it was (which doesn't mean you change it, but that brings me to my next point).

Firstly I'd like to address the comment about there being "milloins" more popular songs rhyming than popular songs that don't rhyme. Lets dispel the exaggeration first. I doubt, enough to say I believe, there have even been one million songs to reach the top 100 on the pop charts, and I think that is a good line to draw as far as qualifying popular songs goes (obviously I am not saying that there have not been a million songs written, however since pop charts have been around I doubt the claim that there have been a million songs to reach even the top 100 if there are statistics I am not aware of then I'd love to see them. this is a guess based on me thinking honestly about a reasonable number for the amount of songs it seems possible to have even been recorded on popularity charts). Also, this is completely unfounded and pretty much impossible for any one to prove or disprove which means it is an empty argument.

Secondly you say that labels look for people who conform to "what sells". However, I can say that I have heard many musicians (I will site Steve Wilson as one of these people, he owns his own label I believe) say that labels are actually looking for originality and "the next big thing" when looking for new bands to sign. That does not in any way mean that "the next big thing" won't rhyme, however as I have already stated I don't think anyone is arguing over whether to rhyme or not in songs. also you claim (I will assume you mean me) that I have not answered your question about who I am writing for...

Originally Posted by: Drew77But thats not to say you should make music for the purpose of hurting others. Unless of course thats what you want to do. But generally in my opinion writers write to get a specific response from specific people, blind firing isn't exactly good, or classy writing.

[QUOTE=Drew77]However, I don't let other peoples opinions, biases, and the preferences of the entire art world dissuade me from the goals I have for myself. I have set these goals based on what I deem valuable to me and what I wish to achieve with my work.

[QUOTE=Drew77]I didn't say I didn't want other people to hear the things I write, but I really don't care if you like it or if you buy it, cause I'm not selling it, you can listen if you want.

There you have three ways of saying the same thing, I write for me. Sorry I thought I was being clear but I didn't think I had to come right out and address a irrelevant point. You also say that
[QUOTE=Songman]Your family and friends will like whatever you write

which is just another condescending comment, telling us we aren't as good as you because we don't think like you. I will repeat myself again, I write for me, if you like it I would love for you to listen, and because I write for me from me, if you like it we probably share something intensely personal. And honestly, my parents don't like my music or my art at all. But there are people who like the things I do because although I am not writing or creating art in this vein of conformity and mediocrism my art is still relevant to peoples feelings but it is more personal and less universal, so obliviously not found in everyone. I guess we just have different reasons for making music, you want to be famous and have everyone listen to your stuff I want to create music because I love music and I love making it. But to say I am less than simply because you deem selling records as the point of making music is again, back to my main point of all my post, closed minded. You are still not seeing my goals as my goals you are projecting your own values onto me and therefore not seeing anything other than what you want to see or have come to know. That is what being closed minded is, it is not not liking someone else's post because they told me I am less than them.


You also call us closed minded for not "excepting" your opinion when in fact like I have already said, it's not the whole rhyming thing that gets me its the arrogance and delusional elitism that your post wreak of. I am not closed minded and in no way want to exclude rhyming form music as you seem to think, and in fact I think you have completely confused the debate, whether by accident or just as a way to paint yourself as a victim I don't know but you have obviously misinterpreted my objection (and everyone else's I believe). You say that we just don't want to change our style and that style is not important and meaning doesn't change with style. Well that frankly is just, I am struggling not to say retarded, but it is. Style whether you like it or not is a function of personality and therefore has just as much meaning and content as the meaning of your words. Style has a huge impact on meaning. Plus If I am in a metal band and get signed to a label they aren't gonna change my song to make it jazz because they signed me to play metal, and they think they can sell the things I write or at least the think they can sell me, which in my case those things would be one and the same. Anyway your example was kinda lame thats all.

It should be said before I start this next session that what you are saying has changed from "this is the way it is, you just don't want to believe that your wrong" to "this is my opinion and you just don't like me". This is a rather radical change in approaches to what you are saying. To begin my problem is in no way with rhyming as i have said repeatedly, my problem is not that my opinion conflicts with yours. In fact my opinion is not the problem. My particular issue is A. How you express your opinion (ie in a matter-of-fact way) and B. because your opinion excludes and outright denounces mine, and apparently most other peoples opinions as well. I have never once said that I wished you wouldn't express your opinion but that you attempt to express it in a more thoughtful (by this I mean in a way which thought was required to formulate it not in the sense that you should be more pleasant about it) way, rather than just saying this is my opinion and if you don't agree then you are not only wrong, but delusional in your definition of what you are doing. This is not constructive criticism it doesn't matter how nice you say it, which I will note that you always seem to be very "nice" about it, however it is a fairly thin vial to hide what you are really trying to say.


I certainly hope that you do not stop posting here simply because some one wished to discuss this matter with you, I think it would be better if you tried to reach outside yourself a bit. Even if you get nothing from this post I wouldn't presume to tell you where to express your opinions, I would only ask that you try to be a better help to people by not just saying the same stuff, which in your case is, "this isn't something I would write, how can that be relevant?"

Anyway, Sorry for the long post but I thought a point by point rebutle was in order. Please read it all. It took me longer to write then it will probably take you to read. Anyway I think I have derailed this thread enough, sorry about that Raven. Songman if you would like to continue this discussion via pm, I always love a hearty debate.

Again Raven sorry I don't think I ever said exactly what I thought of your lyrics. I liked them, they seem fine to me. The music is always the important part to me, I think that over good music it will be a great song.

Originally Posted by: Songman
In the beginning I asked, "Who are you writing for?", which I never got a reply.

Well, lemme just say this. I'm only 13 years old, and I'm not looking to going into anything serious with my songwriting. Not yet at least. So I guess I just write for myself. Maybe a few friends. I also write songs for my band. And trust me, the way the singer in my band sings it, well, you can't really understand what he is singing (death metal vocals) so I don't think people we perform the song to will not really care about the lyrics. (Oh yeah, this song in the thread is not death metal, I'm just trying to convey a quick point about MY style of music involving the singing and lyrics) The singing is just a little junk to make it a band with a singer. There's nothing special in my bands singing. Really, this song is about the music. I'm gonna get it recorded (I hope) and you guys can listen to it. I bet then, Songman, you'll change you're mind about it. Lyrics don't seem all that important to me. I like writing songs, but I like tackling all the music, then throw down some depressing words down on paper. The music really is my only concern I dont work very hard on lyrics only music. I don't even care about them when I am the designated lyricist of the band. I focus on the music all the time. Me and my buddies play through the music a bunch, I write some lyrics, then we practice it as a whole. I don't want lyrics and singing to be a big distraction from the music of the songs. This kind of stuff comes from death metal. Children of Bodom is amazing musically, and I basically don't even listen to the singing. I'm always listening for guitar melody and bass melody, getting the music to move me. Slayer sort of did the same thing. I didn't pay attention to the gorey lyrics. They made me get my ear right up to the speaker and listen to the MUSIC! The singing in these bands just convey moods to the song, just to boost the mood of the music. See what I mean?