Originally Posted by: Songman
You can word it anyway you want to make yourself feel good about it, but a song rythmes.[/QUOTE]

This is obviously a hostile comment and it was made by you before anyone ever made similar comments towards you.

And anyway I hope you aren't referring to me with

Originally Posted by: SongmanI am not the one that appears to be angry[/QUOTE] Because I am not angry in the least. I can see way Raven might be a bit angry but that brings me to my next point.

You claim that everyone is ganging up on you because we

Originally Posted by: Songmandon't like my opinion or should I say you don't like me[/QUOTE]
Then I would have to point out that you obviously (at least judging by evidence found din your posts on this forum) have something personally against Raven or should I say, the type of person you perceive raven to be. This is evident in the fact that other members here have written songs that do not rhyme all the way through and you never even mentioned it to them. In fact in the case of Grizzlymint's song "High School Days" he does not rhyme all the way through or chain himself to a particular scheme and you told him he should copyright it. So please do not try the old trick of rubber and glue, it doesn't make for a good argument.

Perhaps your getting so much resentment because your opinion is not as "popular" as you thought it was (which doesn't mean you change it, but that brings me to my next point).

Firstly I'd like to address the comment about there being "milloins" more popular songs rhyming than popular songs that don't rhyme. Lets dispel the exaggeration first. I doubt, enough to say I believe, there have even been one million songs to reach the top 100 on the pop charts, and I think that is a good line to draw as far as qualifying popular songs goes (obviously I am not saying that there have not been a million songs written, however since pop charts have been around I doubt the claim that there have been a million songs to reach even the top 100 if there are statistics I am not aware of then I'd love to see them. this is a guess based on me thinking honestly about a reasonable number for the amount of songs it seems possible to have even been recorded on popularity charts). Also, this is completely unfounded and pretty much impossible for any one to prove or disprove which means it is an empty argument.

Secondly you say that labels look for people who conform to "what sells". However, I can say that I have heard many musicians (I will site Steve Wilson as one of these people, he owns his own label I believe) say that labels are actually looking for originality and "the next big thing" when looking for new bands to sign. That does not in any way mean that "the next big thing" won't rhyme, however as I have already stated I don't think anyone is arguing over whether to rhyme or not in songs. also you claim (I will assume you mean me) that I have not answered your question about who I am writing for...

Originally Posted by: Drew77But thats not to say you should make music for the purpose of hurting others. Unless of course thats what you want to do. But generally in my opinion writers write to get a specific response from specific people, blind firing isn't exactly good, or classy writing.

[QUOTE=Drew77]However, I don't let other peoples opinions, biases, and the preferences of the entire art world dissuade me from the goals I have for myself. I have set these goals based on what I deem valuable to me and what I wish to achieve with my work.

[QUOTE=Drew77]I didn't say I didn't want other people to hear the things I write, but I really don't care if you like it or if you buy it, cause I'm not selling it, you can listen if you want.

There you have three ways of saying the same thing, I write for me. Sorry I thought I was being clear but I didn't think I had to come right out and address a irrelevant point. You also say that
[QUOTE=Songman]Your family and friends will like whatever you write

which is just another condescending comment, telling us we aren't as good as you because we don't think like you. I will repeat myself again, I write for me, if you like it I would love for you to listen, and because I write for me from me, if you like it we probably share something intensely personal. And honestly, my parents don't like my music or my art at all. But there are people who like the things I do because although I am not writing or creating art in this vein of conformity and mediocrism my art is still relevant to peoples feelings but it is more personal and less universal, so obliviously not found in everyone. I guess we just have different reasons for making music, you want to be famous and have everyone listen to your stuff I want to create music because I love music and I love making it. But to say I am less than simply because you deem selling records as the point of making music is again, back to my main point of all my post, closed minded. You are still not seeing my goals as my goals you are projecting your own values onto me and therefore not seeing anything other than what you want to see or have come to know. That is what being closed minded is, it is not not liking someone else's post because they told me I am less than them.


You also call us closed minded for not "excepting" your opinion when in fact like I have already said, it's not the whole rhyming thing that gets me its the arrogance and delusional elitism that your post wreak of. I am not closed minded and in no way want to exclude rhyming form music as you seem to think, and in fact I think you have completely confused the debate, whether by accident or just as a way to paint yourself as a victim I don't know but you have obviously misinterpreted my objection (and everyone else's I believe). You say that we just don't want to change our style and that style is not important and meaning doesn't change with style. Well that frankly is just, I am struggling not to say retarded, but it is. Style whether you like it or not is a function of personality and therefore has just as much meaning and content as the meaning of your words. Style has a huge impact on meaning. Plus If I am in a metal band and get signed to a label they aren't gonna change my song to make it jazz because they signed me to play metal, and they think they can sell the things I write or at least the think they can sell me, which in my case those things would be one and the same. Anyway your example was kinda lame thats all.

It should be said before I start this next session that what you are saying has changed from "this is the way it is, you just don't want to believe that your wrong" to "this is my opinion and you just don't like me". This is a rather radical change in approaches to what you are saying. To begin my problem is in no way with rhyming as i have said repeatedly, my problem is not that my opinion conflicts with yours. In fact my opinion is not the problem. My particular issue is A. How you express your opinion (ie in a matter-of-fact way) and B. because your opinion excludes and outright denounces mine, and apparently most other peoples opinions as well. I have never once said that I wished you wouldn't express your opinion but that you attempt to express it in a more thoughtful (by this I mean in a way which thought was required to formulate it not in the sense that you should be more pleasant about it) way, rather than just saying this is my opinion and if you don't agree then you are not only wrong, but delusional in your definition of what you are doing. This is not constructive criticism it doesn't matter how nice you say it, which I will note that you always seem to be very "nice" about it, however it is a fairly thin vial to hide what you are really trying to say.


I certainly hope that you do not stop posting here simply because some one wished to discuss this matter with you, I think it would be better if you tried to reach outside yourself a bit. Even if you get nothing from this post I wouldn't presume to tell you where to express your opinions, I would only ask that you try to be a better help to people by not just saying the same stuff, which in your case is, "this isn't something I would write, how can that be relevant?"

Anyway, Sorry for the long post but I thought a point by point rebutle was in order. Please read it all. It took me longer to write then it will probably take you to read. Anyway I think I have derailed this thread enough, sorry about that Raven. Songman if you would like to continue this discussion via pm, I always love a hearty debate.

Again Raven sorry I don't think I ever said exactly what I thought of your lyrics. I liked them, they seem fine to me. The music is always the important part to me, I think that over good music it will be a great song.