Thin Ice ?????

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeI would be careful with how much credibility you place on science.. I have worked with scientists for years, not in the field of evolution or other theories, but much smaller experiments for the corporate world. I have seen scientists create experiments or trials that will prove what their agendas want them to prove. They aren't being paid to find the truth, they are paid to provide evidence to support an agenda. And if a scientist comes across evidence that disproves or goes against their agenda, they disregard it and move on to the next experiment. I have seen this done many times. And I'm not naiive enough to beleive that this doesn't happen in every field of science. It just wouldn't be in the best interest for scientists to disprove their own theories. For every hypothesis or experiment that proves or provides evidence to support a theory, you will find hypotheses, evidence and experiments that disprove it...

Agreed... although I'm not sure what the agenda would be in this instance. Maybe to topple the Abrahamic faiths for a laugh? My point is that regradless of the outcome, some attempt is made to explain / prove / whatever by science, where religion to me just says 'God exists, OK....' - No, it's not OK... explain why you believe it (Not as in any individual - you know what I mean).

Science has moved over time - once we thought the world was flat and that the sun orbitted around the earth. Now we know that isn't the case, and have taken on our current understanding of things as the way it is, as well as acknowledging that the previous thinking was a bit off ;) . Has religion moved with the times? I'm not saying there cannot be a creator, but whether the established religions have any connection to this creator is, to me at least, highly questionable. All it has is faith...

I cannot see a comparison. I'm agnostic rather than an atheist - I'll believe it when I see it. 'Pigs might fly' they say, and until I see one doing so, I won't believe they can.

Originally Posted by: Tonja_ReneeI would be careful with how much credibility you place on science.. I have worked with scientists for years, not in the field of evolution or other theories, but much smaller experiments for the corporate world. I have seen scientists create experiments or trials that will prove what their agendas want them to prove. They aren't being paid to find the truth, they are paid to provide evidence to support an agenda. And if a scientist comes across evidence that disproves or goes against their agenda, they disregard it and move on to the next experiment. I have seen this done many times. And I'm not naiive enough to beleive that this doesn't happen in every field of science. It just wouldn't be in the best interest for scientists to disprove their own theories. For every hypothesis or experiment that proves or provides evidence to support a theory, you will find hypotheses, evidence and experiments that disprove it...

I agree 100%. It's for that reason that I don't think that most scientific therories have any more credibility than religious ones. These are theories, and by definition theories are suggestions of an explanation for something that has none. I don't believe in the Big Bang or that we all evolved from single-cell organisms any more than I believe in religion. Both science and religion leave too much unexplained, and both science and religion ignore a lot of stuff in favor of the things that help their case. And since none of it can be proven, it all comes down to what you choose to believe.

I'd say theres a severe difference in having faith in science or having faith in God. Science is based on the laws of observation and testing and such. Imo, you should be consistent with your beliefs. If you believe in science, in turn you should'nt believe with reason to believe, just as you've chose not to believe in God. You cannot choose to believe in science unless scientific data tells you otherwise. And it hasn't, and I have the information to back it up if you'd like to see it.

Religion doesn't grow with the times, because in theory, it shouldn't change. The biblical message doesn't evolve. Its there, clear as crystal. A few cultural things have changed, and some in the Old Testament was just the law of Israel, but theres people out there who study that stuff, and interpret it for us. Not all of us have the time, means, or will power to give the Bible an in-depth look. You have to be educated to do such things, especially since it was written in Hebrew originally. So what I'm getting at, a few things may have changed, but only because we have increased our knowledge in what was originally intended for us follow. Or so we think.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiIt looks to me like you were the one who started this argument, not the religious folks.

blah.... you guys are missing my point completely.
That's the problem with trying to discuss things on forums. You have 20 pages of stuff to say, but only a couple of paragraphs to get your point across.
Unfortunately, what usually happens is instead of taking the entire message people type, they pick out one or two sentences and concentrate on that instead of understanding your entire message as a whole.
If you go back and read my posts, there's a number of things you'll find.

1) I'm not starting an argument. I'm posting my thoughts on a subject.
(I'm not sitting here with an angry look on my face, typing with my fists pounding on the keyboard... I'm trying to spark some conversation while I'm working on converting wav files and watching South Park. I type on this forum..then I switch to somewhere else and tell a joke and come back here. ie... no subject is important enough for me to become personally involved to the point where it's actually bothering me. I'm just typing a contrary viewpoint to spark some controversy and thought on a subject that can, and has been for thousands of years, very closed minded.
Originally my point was that I neither believe nor disbelieve in God because nobody can prove whether it's true or not. This also holds the same for some scientific theories. Fine I agree with that.
I also went on to say (in short) that I find it annoying having to put up with people and their religious convictions being shoved down my throat on a daily basis.. but the second that I try to contradict anybody about religion using my own thoughts and truths, it escalates into a huge argument because a) you think people like me are closed minded b) you think I'm actually getting angry when I'm actually just sitting here watching shows and typing something to break up the boredom.
Believe me.. I'm extremely open minded about the whole subject.
Which is why I'm saying...

I don't believe or disbelieve because there is nobody on planet Earth that can actually prove that God exists.

There's no way of countering that argument because it's the absolute truth and no matter what you say about your beliefs in faith or whatever... you'll never be able to prove it.

My point is... I'll believe that there's a God when you can actually make him appear beside me here and talk to me in person. Maybe perform a couple of miracles. Tell me what the universe really is and why we're here.
Show me the afterlife... just basically prove beyond any question that God exists.
Until then, my point will never change.
Religion is based on human beliefs. It is full of falsehoods and lies. It captures people by praying on their lack of self esteem because many people need to believe in a higher power in order to get through life.
It is full of scam artists, molesters... ie... human faults
It has caused so many deaths and wars... our entire civilization is based on it (hence the reason this is the year 2007 and not 4 billion)
It foreshadows and runs everybody's life whether you want it or not.
And all of this is based on peoples 'faith' and nothing more.
I don't have faith because I need it proven to me and there's no human being on Earth who can prove right now that religion or God is truthful and actually exists.
I will never in my life believe or worship something that humans have made up out of thin air. Because it isn't actual fact.. it's a theory and nothing more.

Speaking of this being 2007 not 4 billion. When was the B.C. and A.D. periods invented, was it at that time, or was it later down the road. If other countries don't believe in Jesus or God, why do they go by 2007 as well?

Some monk called gregory somethingoranother invented the christian calaneder. I';m sure a simple google search will tell you all you need to know. China does not go by the Christian calander. Only use it for business abroad. Everyone else doesn't.

Originally Posted by: magicninjaSome monk called gregory somethingoranother invented the christian calaneder. I';m sure a simple google search will tell you all you need to know. China does not go by the Christian calander. Only use it for business abroad. Everyone else doesn't.

hmm.. there's a question. Are all calendars based on religion?

I look at Christianity/Judaism as purely a cultural tradition. It's not even that old comparatively, so how is it supposed to answer questions of creation? Give us another 2000 years (if even that long) and they'll look back at it like we look at the ancient Romans/Greeks (multi god/goddess), Inca/Maya (sun god + lesser gods), or even Egyptians (pharaohs were living gods). And I bet they used some of the same arguments then to support their faith...that the complexity/beauty of the world suggests divinity, that their writings speak truth and have prophesised events in the past and yet to come, and of course that "straying" has consequences. But even Christians will agree these belief systems seem silly now.

I've tried the Christian path myself...didn't work for me. I'll accept that when you truly believe, that you indeed feel benefited from it. It's the accepting the bible as the divine word that I couldn't accept. Personally I think there prolly is a God so to speak, but I don't think it's as presented by the bible. To grossly oversimplify, it presents a picture not too different from Zeus really...old fatherly man sitting in the gates of heaven watching from above. I on the other hand assume there is no separation from our world and the spirit world; they are seamless. Our picture of the visual world is vastly restricted anyways. Imagine if you could see the whole wavelength spectrum, from high freq ultra-violet to low freq infrared. Not to mention our perception of time has been proven to be relative. I see "God" as more like the force of life, or even just energy of the universe, that initiates everything from chemical/nuclear reactions in stars to babies and kittens, and thus is truly a part of everything. "He" is not a seperate singular all knowing entity, but more like a field of all possible knowledge within the very fabric of reality, of which we only think we have a grasp of. Hell, I may be way off too. I'll be the first to admit I can't even imagine what the truth of "reality" is. Thus it's the conviction that organized religion holds the truth is what gets to the "un-faithful" like Schmange, and I guess me as well.

Yeah, that about sums up most of what I was trying to get across.
.. but me don't speak so good and it come out dumbly

Okay, my turn.

Quite frankly, I am a wee bit offended with the tone of this thread. Not by what was said, but rather the way in which things were said. Both sides of the argument seem to take the position held by the ‘cool’ fourth grader who knows the ‘truth’ about Santa Claus and looks at the other kids with disdain. Oh I know it was not overt or even intentional but if you read back through the thread, that’s the feeling I get anyway.

Personally, I think that it’s a combination of both sides of the coin. God being the why and science being the how. I think I’ve already expressed the whole time issue (What is a day to God?) but all that aside, creation and the meaning of life is a lot like playing the guitar (Bear with me. This is a somewhat cumbersome analogy). From a technical aspect, playing the guitar is about science and math. Really. It can be broken down into numbers, plot points on a graph and a nice, squiggly line on an oscilloscope. But when you play, are you thinking that? Maybe you are, I don’t know. I am not a very skilled guitarist. Yet. But I know when I am playing, I am playing what I am hearing in my head, what I am feeling in my heart. Emotions. Feelings. I am trying to get those across to you, the invisible listener. You can have all of the technical skill in the world, but with no heart, it’s just an exercise. On the flip side, you can have all the heart in the world, but without the technical skills, the best you’ll ever do is strum Kumbye-ya around the campfire.

The day that playing the guitar becomes an equation without heart, without passion, I will put it down and never pick it up again.

To me, that’s the same thing that can be said for life. I think we can all agree that life can be broken down into scientific equations. But without hope, without ‘something’ else, it’s nothing. It’s pointless. Music and literature and friendship and love, like religion, gives me hope. The point has been made countless times in this thread that life is difficult. Living and being a part of this world can be tenuous at best. My faith provides me something that I have not felt in a long, long time from mankind, outside of my family. It allows me to love and to feel love. It allows me to feel connected.

I may be wrong. I may be totally off base. If I am, so be it. I will cling to that ‘something’ that allows me to feel. If your ‘something’ is science, then cling to that. I admire the posts in a way because you all have shown something rare. It demonstrates passion in your beliefs and in the dark of night, it’s these beliefs, no matter what they may be, that will get you through to the dawn.

Arguing religion is like making out with your pants on or drinking non-alcoholic beer; what’s the point?

And that’s my two and half-cents worth. I apologize for that really stupid analogy too! :D

H60

Maybe that's why I like music so much.
The only time I ever feel any kind of 'spiritual' connection is when listening to music. I can't think of any other thing in life that can make you break down in tears just because it's so good... you want the entire world to feel what you're feeling at that moment because everything makes sense.
The universe makes sense... the whole reason for your existence is right there in the music.

I look at some of the people on Sunday morning religious shows, praising Jesus and crying and I'm thinking... ok, either they're totally delusional or they're seeing something that completely evades me.
They look like they're getting exactly the same thing I'm getting out of music.

Then my fourth grade personality kicks in and I yell at the person on TV 'oh my God this can't be real....they have to be actors cause there's no way in hell that somebody could actually be feeling that way listening to the crappy music they're playing right now'

Seriously, religious shows have some of the worst musical talent.
Another reason why I don't like religion.

Schmange, we have found common ground. Religious music sucks. Except....I was at this church one time in NYC with my sister. The drummer and the guitarist were 2 they found playing in the subway. They had a record scratcher/dj (w/e you call them) and a keyboardist...I stood in awe. It was the greatest Christian music I've ever heard. It was more like a concert. I still get chills thinking about it. I should've shaken that guitarists hand.

Oh god, don't let Nathan hear you say that.

Haha, that's funny. The other day I was thinking about this and I said to myself "well, if God exists, why does Christian music suck?" Just popped into my head, and when I realised what I'd thought I laughed out loud.

Okay, I came up with this little narrative that I think more or less sums up most of my problems with Christian beliefs. I'd be interested to see some responses from both sides on this. I don't want to offend anyone with the tone of this, and that isn't my intention, what my intention is, is to show how I percieve these things. This is how I think of them, and I'm not trying to make fun of people, so if you are offended I apologize, but please respond to this in regards to my perception of these views rather than my attitude about them.

Christian Beliefs As I Have Been Made To Understand Them
God is a non-physical being that can do anything and is perfect. God never makes mistakes, knows everything that will ever happen, and knows everything that everybody thinks and does. After an eternity of sitting in nothingness, God suddenly gets the idea that he should create a universe, so he creates a universe and fills it with countless stars and planets. He then decides that he should put some life in this universe. He then crams every form of biological organism he can imagine onto a single planet, and after that says "I should put some people here too. Yeah, people, I'll put them here, and I'll make them imperfect so that they have faults, and then I will punish them for these faults. I'll make it so that they can never understand me and the only way for them to not be punished is if they are forced at a young and susceptible age through fear to believe in me, since there is no logic in believing in me and no free-thinking individual would. Even if they do believe in me however, I may still decide to punish them on some outrageous technicality, because I love them. Also, I will put these trees here, and tell the people not to eat the fruit. Since I know everything that will happen, though, I know they will eat them, but I'll still put them there anyway, to test their faith, although I know they will fail, and then if they do eat it, which they will, I better get them out of here quick because if they eat those fruit I will be seriously screwed. Actually, I haven't seen those people around...better go see what's going on...oh, crap, they ate the fruit. All right, that's it. Now everybody forever gets punished, because that's easier than just giving up on my universe idea and sparing everyone."
Years down the road...
"All right, after thousands of years of punishing you, I decided you can kill my son. Which is murder. If you break this commandment I have made for you, then you'll be saved. Well, hopefully. Because you'll still have to do a lot of other things after that, I mean, I love you and I want to forgive your sins, but I can't just do that. Naturally I already know which of you will do the right things and go to Heaven, I knew that before you were even created. I sure am sorry that I have to send so many of you poor pre-determined souls that I keep on making to Hell to be punished forever!"
Then perhaps someone asks God, "but God, if you love us, and want to take away our sins, can't you just do it?"
"Nope. Sorry, my hands are tied."
"By?"
"..."
THE END

Oh man, that's hilarious! Wonderfully cynical and filled with skepticisim in the highest order! Of course, being a believer myself, I don't agree with it, but it still made me laugh. Thanks for the early morning chuckle. :) And no, I can't answer any of it. Of course, I'm not God. I'm just a human being filled with ... cynicism, skepticism and human frailties like everyone else.

One of the best parts of Christianity is the promise that when we get there, we have all of our questions answered and I have a few that I will ask the Big G.

1) Did Oswald act alone?

2) Were there really UFO's visiting us and if so, why?

3) Why did you make me love the guitar so much and give me such nominal ability? :D

Kinda looking forward to the answer to that one.

Again, thanks for the laugh.

Ha, Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Brilliant !

Originally Posted by: hunter601) Did Oswald act alone?

I can tell you than one right now. Yes, he did. It was a very unprofessional shooting.

Heh, Acapella, it's kind of funny, because almost none of your descriptions of what Christians believe God to be fit what I believe God to be...

Maybe that's why I don't get along so well with other Christians...

Originally Posted by: HammurabiI can tell you than one right now. Yes, he did. It was a very unprofessional shooting.

I suspect you're correct although being a bit of a shooter myself, I can attest to how difficult it is to hit moving target at anything over 50 yards let along 300 feet at an angle with a diminishing 'target' window with each passing second.

Plus, he was using a lousy Italian carbine that was known for having a really poor sighting, drop velocity ...etc. Oh yeah, bolt action too. That just adds to the difficulty in getting off the three shots.

I gotta admit, if he was acting alone, you have to be amazed with what he did. Yes, yes, it was deplorable, but from a marksmanship standpoint, pretty impressive.