Thin Ice ?????

http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/chemlife.html

Check out the links on that site also. Hardcore stuff.

Meh, I'm a Saganist. Models of the universe are now leaning toward a multiple big bang scenario. This all found through the research into String Theory. It also cocludes that tthere are 11 dimensions to the universe and Parallel Universes. Apparently what happened in this theory is Two other universes Came near to eachother. Now the outer surfaces are not smooth but ripple like water. So when they got near enough to each other a ripple hit here, another ripple hit there creating these multiole big bangs that brought our universe into existance. Indeed they are starting to believe our Universe just a bubble floating in an infinite ocean of other universes. In each of these the it is almost exactly the same as this one except maybe the sky on Earth is green and in another Guitar Tricks is blue and in yet another I don't even exist. It really is just pages of mathematical equations and for all they know it is complete BS. It's just what he numbers say.

Yeah...uuhhhh. I just did some reading on that String Theory. WTF. That is some strange stuff. In all honesty, I don't know why anyone would adopt that as a theory being unless you've got a really good knowledge of science and physics its gonna be over your heard. But hey, thats just my opinion. I'm the one who happens to believe God created us. So perhaps I'm just as stupid as the next guy.

Originally Posted by: aschlemanI look at Jesus as a role model more than some spiritual entity

I just wanted to quote you on this, because it's exactly how I feel as well. In my opinion, Jesus was not the son of God, he was just a really, really smart guy who was way ahead of the times. In fact, I think he was ahead of our times, too. Here we are, a couple thousand years later, and we're still fighting. Jeez.

I think that the rest of the world could learn something from this thread. Here we are, A forum full of people with different ideas about creation,god and religion and NO ONE IS FIGHTING! Magicninja is not launching terorist attacks on Grizzleymint, Noone is building nukes (for self defense of course) and noone is demanding that everyone else follows what they believe.
I propose that we print up about a million copies of this thread and drop them all over the middle east.

Originally Posted by: BluesHound9I think that the rest of the world could learn something from this thread. Here we are, A forum full of people with different ideas about creation,god and religion and NO ONE IS FIGHTING! Magicninja is not launching terorist attacks on Grizzleymint, Noone is building nukes (for self defense of course) and noone is demanding that everyone else follows what they believe.
I propose that we print up about a million copies of this thread and drop them all over the middle east.

Nice thought. Trouble is, someone would shoot the plane down for dropping 'inflammatory materials'. Religious arguments, no matter how civil, are basically pointless. Each and everyone of us has our own thoughts and beliefs that apply a salve the boil that is human existence. Everyone is right, everyone is wrong. As has been stated repeatedly, we won't know until we're dead.

At that point, it's too late to change your mind... ;)

I Believe that the Bible was written - with the Inspiration of God - using the information that was available at the Time.

I'll believe it - In Moderation !

Originally Posted by: grizzlymintYeah...uuhhhh. I just did some reading on that String Theory. WTF. That is some strange stuff. In all honesty, I don't know why anyone would adopt that as a theory being unless you've got a really good knowledge of science and physics its gonna be over your heard. But hey, thats just my opinion. I'm the one who happens to believe God created us. So perhaps I'm just as stupid as the next guy.

Yeah it does get complicated and I guess when I think about it, maybe it should be complicated. I do have the feeling that sometimes scientist tend to overcomplicate things. I do have a little knowledge in physics and math from high school and a semester of Astrophysics. Many of the equations and whatnot have been lost to time. All I have is a basic understanding of what they are trying to say. Most of what I learn now comes from reading (mostly Astronomy mag) and watching the Discovery Science channel. It looks like Relativity, String Theory, and the Big Bang theories can hold up on thier own, it's when you try to make them work together when everything breaks down. This is why they've added 7 dimensions and the parallel universes. To fill out the gaps between the theories. I think the combined theory behind all of theories that make the universe what it is is called "M Theory". Maybe some of you would be interested in looking it up. I also think that belief in God is just as viable a theory as any. It's just not for me I guess. :)

Everyone here who hasn't should read 'Zen and the art of motorcycle maintnence'. It has some interesting words on science.

Originally Posted by: earthman buckI just wanted to quote you on this, because it's exactly how I feel as well. In my opinion, Jesus was not the son of God, he was just a really, really smart guy who was way ahead of the times. In fact, I think he was ahead of our times, too. Here we are, a couple thousand years later, and we're still fighting. Jeez.

Reminds me of a dvd i was watching. Its Monty Python (Mostly Jones and Cleese) arguing that The Life of Brian is Heretical, and not blasphemous. They say how Jesus came and said don't kill eachother, but for 2000 years, we have killed eachother cause we can't figure out exactly how he said it.

As for my views on all this...I think you all know where I stand.

Originally Posted by: ericthecableguyReminds me of a dvd i was watching. Its Monty Python (Mostly Jones and Cleese) arguing that The Life of Brian is Heretical, and not blasphemous. They say how Jesus came and said don't kill eachother, but for 2000 years, we have killed eachother cause we can't figure out exactly how he said it.

Haha, that's an excellent way of putting it. Kudos to the Pythons.

I found some stuff on that M-theory ninja mentioned:

The smart-people explanation
The dumbed-down version

I found even the second one hard to follow.

As interesting and fun it is to think about this kind of stuff, I find it sort of irrelevant. I don't think it really matters where we came from or how things came to be or how long they've been here, because the fact is that they exist now. I think right now we need to focus on curing diseases and ending war and poverty and famine. Once all that's taken care of, then we can try and figure all this stuff out.

I am reminded of Sherlock Holmes' response when Dr. Watson told him about the Copernican theory of teh helio-centric solar system.

He said that he would do what he could to forget that he had heard such a thing, since it had no effect at all on his daily life, and took up mental space that he might make better use of.

Meanwhile, cosmology approaches religion, and the eventual discovery of a unified theory will bring us face-to-face with God.

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight time shaaaaaaaarrpens, HEIGHTENS EACH SENSAAAATION!

Daaarkness wakes, and stirs imaginaaaaTION!

Originally Posted by: aschleman

I woke up and laughed nervously... then I started playing guitar and I didn't really care after that point.

that's what God did after the big bang :D

Originally Posted by: z0s0_jpthat's what God did after the big bang :D

No. After the big bang, God rolled off and fell asleep.

I'm reading a book called "Origins of Life" right now. Hardcore stuff. Sometimes a bit much for me to understand, but its great.

This is really interesting to be reading this now. I've been struggling with some ideas for a while now about this topic. For a long time, I guess I was what you would call "religious". I mean, I wasn't exactly a model for humanity or anything, but I believed in all that stuff. Recently though, I started thinking about it and I think the reason I did was mostly because I was afraid not to. I was always raised with it, and I guess it's like Santa Claus- if you stop believing in him, you don't get presents anymore. So you push back those doubts as long as you can. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that whatever I had been told my whole life, I would probably feel the same way about. What makes this different? What is there to show that Christianity is true, and other religions, or no religion at all, are false? If you were told your whole life that everything was ruled by a giant mouse and if you stopped believing in him that he would eat you, you'd be too scared not to believe that as well. But really, I've seen nothing to suggest that there is anything controlling our lives aside from ourselves. The kicker is, when I finally admitted these things to myself, I realised that I had always believed them, and I'd always had doubts about what I'd been told, again it was just that I was afraid to think that. I mean, for example, I was always terrified of what happens after you die. If I had really believed all that, I wouldn't have had to be afraid, because I would have known that I would go to Heaven...or Hell. But I always wondered "what if you die and everything just stops?" and it was the most frightening thought I could, and can, imagine. But I've accepted that everybody does die eventually, and at least now I'm not afraid to live while I can.

Here are some of my personal reasons for believing:

Like you and many others, I was brought up that way. My dad was a pastor for 11 years, and still occassionally does it on the side and fills in for other pastors. I had the faith already enstilled in me...blind faith nonetheless. Obviously when I hit an older age, I started to question, and people started to question me. This is one reason I fell in love with learning about the evolution and creation debate. Could have we really got here without a creator? From what I've read thus far, the answer points to no. Now, the age old question "how do you know that your religion is right and the rest are wrong?" comes up. Well, the Biblical model stands up very well with scientific findings, if you are willing to believe that there was divine intervention. All the intricacies of the evolutionary theory that seem to prove themselves wrong time and time again, disappear. That being said, I don't object to science. I simply reject the naturalistic model of the evolutionary theory. So, in other words, science is a great reason for me to believe.

Now, I'd also like to believe that we are here for a reason. Psychology tries to explain this by saying the human brain tries to find reason in anything we do, including life itself. Why are we here? How did we get here? Why do/would we have moral standards if we are simply here to reproduce, pass on our DNA and die? Personally I have a very hard time believing that. I also have an easier time believing the Biblical model due to prophecies that is has made. (i.e. the fact that the arabs and Israel have been fighting all this time, just like the Bible predicted) I also believe that christianity is a peaceful religion and basically covers everything in it that should and is considered morally and ethically "right."

I've got reasons beyond those that I believe, but more on a personal level. Obviously I'd hear the age old questions such as "why did God create us if he already knew we would go to heaven or hell" or "how is he a good God if he created evil also?" Some of the questions I can't answer. I can't speak for God, I don't know his motives. What I do know is he has given us the gift of free will. We ultimately make the decision where we will end up for eternity, even if he knows what will happen. But, when you wake up in the morning, you choose to get out of bed, and you choose all the decisions that you make. So you have to sit down and decide what is right and wrong and true or false.

The morality thing was something I thought of as well. But I have to think a few things don't make sense there either. Like, why would we be made to have urges and impulses if we are not supposed to follow them? Why would God make people want to do things, and them punish them for doing them?
Another thing: why would God, in the way that He is traditionally percieved, have people here at all? Why would he have made them in the first place? So that He could churn out people, knowing already what would happen to them, and then when their lives are over toss them this way or that as He knew along He would do? If he was going to do that, why didn't he just not make people at all and save Himself and us a lot of trouble?

Originally Posted by: acapellaThe morality thing was something I thought of as well. But I have to think a few things don't make sense there either. Like, why would we be made to have urges and impulses if we are not supposed to follow them? Why would God make people want to do things, and them punish them for doing them?
Another thing: why would God, in the way that He is traditionally percieved, have people here at all? Why would he have made them in the first place? So that He could churn out people, knowing already what would happen to them, and then when their lives are over toss them this way or that as He knew along He would do? If he was going to do that, why didn't he just not make people at all and save Himself and us a lot of trouble?

Acapella, those are the motives of God that I can't speak for. But you need to remember, in the end we control our own destiny. We have those impulses to see how faithful we will be, despite the world wanting to tell us to do otherwise. You can sit and think of "whys?" all day, but you still have to remember, that we have free will.

So we have free will, but yet God knows what we're going to do? How does that work? It's not like I'm trying to fight with you, it's just that I seriously would like getting some kind of logical explanation if there is one.