Thin Ice ?????

Originally Posted by: schmangeso if you want to talk about the way you 'talk to God' or you talk to 'Jesus'...or that some supreme being is looking down on everybody, keep it to yourself or at the very least, admit that it's only your own opinion and not actual fact.

Don't you think that's a little over the top, telling us religious people to keep our views to ourselves? If that be the case, then why don't you keep your views to yourself, since they obviously don't have anything to add to the conversation... it's just you telling us how foolish you think we are, which is JUST YOUR OPINION! If everybody kept their opinions to themselves, then we wouldn't have anything to talk about. So you don't agree with any form of religion... So what! Why butt into a religious thread and tell us to keep our religious opinions to ourselves, when you just got through stating your OPINION? How is that fair? Nobody made you participate in this thread... you chose to on your own will. So, don't go off telling us what we can and can't say when it comes to this subject. If you don't like it, state your OPINION, but don't state your opinion and then tell us not to state ours. :rolleyes:

In fairness, I think it may be that Kev was saying that personal beliefs are exactly that - personal. There is no need to preach whether you are religious, agnostic or a full on atheist. Whatever your position, you're not going to convert anyone to it...

On men of the cloth and tendancies toward small children - it would be fair to assume that those with an unhealthy interest in children would be drawn to living lives where they are exposed to that which they crave. Church = position of trust and choir boys, School = position of trust and hundreds of potential victims - just two examples...

It doesn't mean by any means that all preachers (or whatever you wanna call them) are paedophiles, but it's probably more likely statistically to find a school teacher who likes little boys than it is to find a old folks home nurse who does...

Maybe some of us go further than those on the other side of the argument would like when making our point, but as we know it's an emotive subject.

I think you all know I don't believe in 'God'. I have no quarrel with other people believing in whatever, but I do feel that my right to disbelieve is not respected to the extent that religious people would have me respect their views.

What if your talking about religion at all is as offensive to me as Kev's views are to you? Are you going to not think it? Will you think it but not express it?

Originally Posted by: renIn fairness, I think it may be that Kev was saying that personal beliefs are exactly that - personal. There is no need to preach whether you are religious, agnostic or a full on atheist. Whatever your position, you're not going to convert anyone to it...

On men of the cloth and tendancies toward small children - it would be fair to assume that those with an unhealthy interest in children would be drawn to living lives where they are exposed to that which they crave. Church = position of trust and choir boys, School = position of trust and hundreds of potential victims - just two examples...

It doesn't mean by any means that all preachers (or whatever you wanna call them) are paedophiles, but it's probably more likely statistically to find a school teacher who likes little boys than it is to find a old folks home nurse who does...

Maybe some of us go further than those on the other side of the argument would like when making our point, but as we know it's an emotive subject.

I think you all know I don't believe in 'God'. I have no quarrel with other people believing in whatever, but I do feel that my right to disbelieve is not respected to the extent that religious people would have me respect their views.

What if your talking about religion at all is as offensive to me as Kev's views are to you? Are you going to not think it? Will you think it but not express it?

Excellently put.
And that is my point.. it's just as offensive to me to have to listen to delusional people blatantly discussing a topic about some non-existent alien life form called god as is is for me to tell you that I don't believe in that crap.
The trouble with religion is perfectly represented in what's just happened in this conversation. An argument has broken out. Over what??
Something that nobody on Earth can prove actually exists.

All through history this is the kind of thing that religion has caused... fights and arguments.
There's no end to this because there is no possible way for you to actually prove to me that God exists. You know it and I know it.
That's the truth and you can't change it no matter what you say or believe in.

Originally Posted by: schmangeThere's no end to this because there is no possible way for you to actually prove to me that God exists. You know it and I know it.
That's the truth and you can't change it no matter what you say or believe in.

Well....not yet anyways. While I don't exactly believe in God, I'm not ruling it out. Maybe someday it'll be proven, and I'm cool with that.

All I'm saying is, if you don't like the topic, then don't participate. I'm not going to try to change you at all... that would be pointless.

Also, was calling us believers "dilusional" really necessary? I mean, no one called you a closed minded jack ass did they?

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense to say that you are offended by people's outrageous views and how they adamantly and offensively go on with them, and then proceed to attack all these people, insisting that their beliefs are wrong, and if they don't believe the same as you that they are wrong, and do it very angrily and offensively. What you're doing is more offensive to me than these people who are simply saying that they believe something.

Okay, okay...settle down fella's. Like Ren said, it's an emotive topic and it will bring out a lot of vitriol if you let it get out of control. I have intentionally stayed out of this one for this very reason. Personal choices, all. Every one is right, everyone is wrong.

You don't have to agree with other opinions, but you should try to respect them.

I personally don't get why some people who don't beleive in God have an issue with people that do.

I have no problem with people expressing their faith or lack there of. But don't call me an idiot or dillusional for beleiving what I do. (that is the problem I have with your posts) Say what you want about what you believe but don't attack everyone else's beliefs because they are different than yours.

Many people beleive that there is life on other planets or in other universes as well, but it really hasnt been proven either. But that is what faith is, knowing that even though you can't touch it or see it - you feel and know that its true. There are some things in this world that we may never understand or be proven to exist or not to exist... You choose what you want to beleive and I will do the same.

People are entitled to beleive what they want, and I won't disrespect you for what you don't believe, just don't disrespect me either.

Originally Posted by: hunter60You don't have to agree with other opinions, but you should try to respect them.

bang on... I may not agree with what some of you say, but you'll never hear me question your right to say it... :D

Originally Posted by: PRSplayaAll I'm saying is, if you don't like the topic, then don't participate. I'm not going to try to change you at all... that would be pointless.

Also, was calling us believers "dilusional" really necessary? I mean, no one called you a closed minded jack ass did they?

Well, yeah.. you just did.
But that's ok, I accept that. To you I'm being closed minded. To me, the subject you're discussing is no different than talking about space babies, fairies, ghosts and goblins, the devil, heaven, hell blah blah blah...
I refuse to believe in something that you can't prove to me is actually true.
I have no respect for religion because to me it's no different than any other fraudulent business.
If there was a church where people actually went to discuss life, the universe and how and why we're here... hey, I'd be all up for it.
But there's no way I'm going to get involved in some cult that is trying to convince me that there's a supreme being watching everything we do while simultaneously taking my money, causing wars, molesting children, dividing nations into certain 'types' like Catholics, Jews or Protestant who all hate each other... blah.
That's not the type of thing I would want anybody getting involved in.

.... and I hate this stupid OSX machine and this stupid keybord that kees missing letters all te time.

Originally Posted by: schmangeWell, yeah.. you just did.
I have no respect for religion because to me it's no different than any other fraudulent business.
But there's no way I'm going to get involved in some cult that is trying to convince me that there's a supreme being watching everything we do while simultaneously taking my money, causing wars, molesting children, dividing nations into certain 'types' like Catholics, Jews or Protestant who all hate each other... blah.
That's not the type of thing I would want anybody getting involved in.

You make it sound like its only people of Religion who commit those crimes... which we all know is not the case.

Originally Posted by: schmangeAll through history this is the kind of thing that religion has caused... fights and arguments.

It looks to me like you were the one who started this argument, not the religious folks.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiIt looks to me like you were the one who started this argument, not the religious folks.

What Kev did was state his opinion... The argument began when the 'believers' took exception to the way he expressed it. Faith is a powerful thing, but so is the non-believer's lack of it and disdain for it.

This thread demonstrates that somehow a strong religious conviction is beyond question, and yet a strong distaste for it is somehow inappropriate.

If you want your Faith respected, you have to accept that some people's lack of it is strong enough that the mere mention of 'God' is enough to set them off... A negative belief is still a belief.

A delusion is a false belief or opinion, which in the view of a non-religious person would cover religion. Likewise, I guess to a believer I'm delusional for not believing.. :rolleyes:

See, ren, the thing is, I don't think anybody was offended because he said he didn't believe the same thing as them. I, for example, was offended, and I'm not even a Christian. I was offended by the way he angrily attacked these people. I feel that he expressed his opinion in a very innapropriate and offensive way, regardless of what that opinion was.

I'd just like to say this. At the end of the day nobody has an idea of how we got here or why were here. Science can't explain it, and to my knowledge, no god has came down in recent history to reveal themselves. So if you have a theory to how we got here or why we're here, perhaps you're just as dilusional as the next guy. Up to this point, any theory requires faith. You either require faith that science will come through, which it hasn't yet, or you require faith in a higher being. I chose the God of the Bible because the biblical creation model fits well with the scientific evidence we've found thus far. Naturalistic scenarios trying to explain the origins of life have failed repeatedly. They've yet to find extraterestrial life of any form, so to this point it is also out as a scenario. Even if they did find say, life on Mars, there is still going to be good debate if that life didn't come from Earth. The ridiculous complexity of even the simplest life forms points to an intelligent creator.

I've got personal reasons for choosing the God of the Bible, and in all honesty, I've never considered any other because I've had no reason to. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Everyone who has an opinion on the subject is entitled to it, however, everyone requires at least an equal amount of faith, up to this point.

I hear what you're saying, but I think there is a key difference between faith in a higher power and 'faith' in science.

Science makes some attempt to explain how things are, and how they came to be. It acknowledges the limitations of research, and undertakes to push those same boundaries. Meanwhile, faith in any God happens in spite of a total lack of evidence.

Belief in a higher power relies on faith - that's all it has. I don't think faith is the right word to use for scientific endeavour, or its results... It would be egotistical to think we have all the answers, or even understand what's right in front of our noses... but at least science makes an attempt...

Faith is faith man. Both have the same amount of evidence supporting it. Both rely on what others are telling us is true. Neither have been proved. So I'd say, the same amount faith goes into both.

I'm intrigued....

How does trusting your eyes need the same amount of faith as belief in a mythical being? Are you saying science has no foundation, or that there is evidence to support the fact God exists?

Evolution has been proven - lizards on an island as I recall. Introduce a new predator, and watch the lizards grow longer legs to outrun it... :eek:

I would think if science and religion were boats, the religion boat would sink first... aren't there more holes?

I should also add that I may be very ignorant of the religious angle, and would genuinely like answers - I'm not just having a crack at you guys...

Originally Posted by: renI hear what you're saying, but I think there is a key difference between faith in a higher power and 'faith' in science.

Science makes some attempt to explain how things are, and how they came to be. It acknowledges the limitations of research, and undertakes to push those same boundaries. Meanwhile, faith in any God happens in spite of a total lack of evidence.

Belief in a higher power relies on faith - that's all it has. I don't think faith is the right word to use for scientific endeavour, or its results... It would be egotistical to think we have all the answers, or even understand what's right in front of our noses... but at least science makes an attempt...

I would be careful with how much credibility you place on science.. I have worked with scientists for years, not in the field of evolution or other theories, but much smaller experiments for the corporate world. I have seen scientists create experiments or trials that will prove what their agendas want them to prove. They aren't being paid to find the truth, they are paid to provide evidence to support an agenda. And if a scientist comes across evidence that disproves or goes against their agenda, they disregard it and move on to the next experiment. I have seen this done many times. And I'm not naiive enough to beleive that this doesn't happen in every field of science. It just wouldn't be in the best interest for scientists to disprove their own theories. For every hypothesis or experiment that proves or provides evidence to support a theory, you will find hypotheses, evidence and experiments that disprove it...

Originally Posted by: renI'm intrigued....


Evolution has been proven - lizards on an island as I recall. Introduce a new predator, and watch the lizards grow longer legs to outrun it... :eek:

I found an article on the lizards that i think you are talking of, its not the complete experiment but all it seems to me is that the lizards with the longer legs survived more at first, then the lizards with the shorter legs became more agile at keeping away from the preditors. It doesn't say they didn't have longer legs to begin with, but like other species, they have variations in limb length... article on lizards