does anybody care?

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsRight there's what I'm talking about. It's not so much that you talk like your religion's superior, but you completely defecate on the rest. Comments like "I just think we're going to heaven and they arent" is a blatant and disrespectful way to talk about the tradition that someone else follows. Especially since there's no proof that either one is actually correct, you're basically just making assumptions. Think about it, would you like to be told that you're going to hell because you didn't believe in the same thing as the guy next to you?[/QUOTE]

Cryptic let me ask you something. Why would I or should I take into account somebody elses relgion or why would I need to "respect" their religion if I actually believe my own? Step into my shoes for a second. Would you go around contradicting your own beliefs so nobody gets offended. I base my "assumptions" on the fact that there is prophecies in the Bible taking place before our eyes today, there is no legitimate theory to life other than a creator, and I believe Jesus died on the cross for my sins. These "assumptions" you speak of are based on some pretty strong information.

Would I like to be told by the guy next to me that Im going to hell cuz I dont believe what he believes? I dont care. Thats what the Muslims think isnt it? Think it bothers me if my buddy Mohammed tells me Im going to hell? Not one bit, because I believe hes wrong.
[QUOTE=Cryptic Excretions]
Of course we're (or at least I am) going to dissect everything you say. What do you want me to do? Pick and choose what parts of your argument that I want to hear and go with that? But that wasn't quite the point I was shooting for. What I was getting at is early on in a debate you say something, then later on you say something that contradicts what you'd previously said, then when presented these two thoughts you're left manuevering around your own words.

The only debate Ill admit to having no legitimate point at all in was the one where I stated I think people should speak english in the US. I dont think Ive contradicted myself at all. Im on the defense because of your questions, not because Ive contradicted myself.

Originally Posted by: stacknyCryptic let me ask you something. Why would I or should I take into account somebody elses relgion or why would I need to "respect" their religion if I actually believe my own? Step into my shoes for a second. Would you go around contradicting your own beliefs so nobody gets offended. I base my "assumptions" on the fact that there is prophecies in the Bible taking place before our eyes today, there is no legitimate theory to life other than a creator, and I believe Jesus died on the cross for my sins. These "assumptions" you speak of are based on some pretty strong information. [/QUOTE]
Well, here's the thing. We live in the USA, where we all have the freedom to hold our own beliefs. So there's no law forcing you to. On the other hand, doesn't the Bible you adhere to tell you that you should "love thy neighbor"? That alone sounds like a contradiction against your religion. I mean, your neighbor isn't you after all, so he's going to have his own beliefs. So the Bible basically says see past that and love your neighbor all the same, even if he's going to hell. Are you ready to love the devil's meat? And your assumptions are based on your interpretation of the Bible, which is literally based around faith, not fact. Therefore it cannot be strong information. It's faith. And that's fine. I'm not attacking you for your beliefs, but there's a big difference between fact and faith. Fact is anything that can be proven true or false. Faith is the belief in the impossible. God and all the Bible preaches are impossible, yet people believe it. That is faith. "Strong information" is beating around the bush when trying to say fact.

Originally Posted by: stackny
Would I like to be told by the guy next to me that Im going to hell cuz I dont believe what he believes? I dont care. Thats what the Muslims think isnt it? Think it bothers me if my buddy Mohammed tells me Im going to hell? Not one bit, because I believe hes wrong.

If you don't mind, could you get off the anti-Muslim binge? I wasn't referring to them and you've missed the point I was going after. The point I was getting at is that it's not fun nor is it nice to be told that you're going to hell because the tradition that's been followed in your family is wrong. Would your God like it very much if he knew you were looking at people and thinking "Oh now he's got a one way ticket to hell"? I'm sure he wouldn't. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it that kind of attitude that gets people their own ride to hell? According to the Bible anyway.
[QUOTE=stackny]
The only debate Ill admit to having no legitimate point at all in was the one where I stated I think people should speak english in the US. I dont think Ive contradicted myself at all. Im on the defense because of your questions, not because Ive contradicted myself.

I would rebuttle that, but we're already in a debate and I think that one at a time is plenty.

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsWell, here's the thing. We live in the USA, where we all have the freedom to hold our own beliefs. So there's no law forcing you to. On the other hand, doesn't the Bible you adhere to tell you that you should "love thy neighbor"? That alone sounds like a contradiction against your religion. I mean, your neighbor isn't you after all, so he's going to have his own beliefs. So the Bible basically says see past that and love your neighbor all the same, even if he's going to hell. Are you ready to love the devil's meat? And your assumptions are based on your interpretation of the Bible, which is literally based around faith, not fact. Therefore it cannot be strong information. It's faith. And that's fine. I'm not attacking you for your beliefs, but there's a big difference between fact and faith. Fact is anything that can be proven true or false. Faith is the belief in the impossible. God and all the Bible preaches are impossible, yet people believe it. That is faith. "Strong information" is beating around the bush when trying to say fact.[/QUOTE]

Dude, I dont hate anybody. Muslims included. Half my friends arent Christians. Never said I dislike or hated anyone because they are going to hell. I just said, I think my religion is correct and theirs isnt, therefore, they wont see heaven unless they change.

Dictionary Definition of "Faith"-Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

or the definition you might prefer

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Either way, neither definition says impossible. Who are you to say God is impossible? You simply cant. You can say you dont believe he exists, but you cannot say his existance is an impossibility.

My faith is built upon prophecies that are being fulfilled before our eyes, for example the situation in the middle east with the Jews and Palestinians, a common currency going throughout Europe, Jews being persecuted all over the world, plans to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, etc. I like the whole creation evolution debate as you know, and there is just no explaination for life other than it being planted here by "something." My faith is not built upon the fact that God exists, because there is nothing that is factual that can prove there is a god, but the way he has shown us his prescence.
[QUOTE=Cryptic Excretions]
If you don't mind, could you get off the anti-Muslim binge? I wasn't referring to them and you've missed the point I was going after. The point I was getting at is that it's not fun nor is it nice to be told that you're going to hell because the tradition that's been followed in your family is wrong. Would your God like it very much if he knew you were looking at people and thinking "Oh now he's got a one way ticket to hell"? I'm sure he wouldn't. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it that kind of attitude that gets people their own ride to hell? According to the Bible anyway.

Im not categorizing people by who is going to hell and who isnt. Thats all I have to say about that. Im not. Theres no such thing as a one way ticket to hell anyways, because everyone has the opportunity to change.

Originally Posted by: acapella rapemeWhat were the lines? If you can't say on here PM me.

No I don't mind saying. The entire thing was me pouring cold water on superstitions, taboos and the like, basically "Lets Get Real" ie: lets look at this objectively. Look at how we'd be without the constriants of what we are taught as a child, ie: don't break a mirror, don't spill salt, don't spin your knife on your plate, etc.
OK, like i said I was a lot younger then and and actually wrote the words for my previous band (Dead Fingers Talk) but we split beofre it was used. I hadn't really found 'myself' either as a musician or a person. It's silly really cos someone said to me "I see you even had a go at Superman!" I thought What? They refer to the 'you cannot fly' part. Anyway, I'll post it in full. The song, I'll post up on my AcidPLanet site in a few minutes if you want to hear it in context. There was a little nervousness on playback of the track in the studio (no home recording then) so we had the mixdown with a heavy phaser effect on the vocal to try to smooth it over a little (???) I couldn't see the fuss myself, although I can now understand how it might offend, and offend it did. If you wonder why the big explanation, you've no idea of the amount of problems it caused, especially from older folk.
You're looking for line 3 in verse 2, and line 2 in verse 3.

N.B: I've put the verse, bridge and chorus markers, so you know where to look

(Let's Get) Real.
Words © Steve Gad. Music © Steve Gad/Jim Underhill
© Baby Z Music 1990
Performed by ‘Such Perfect Liars’

1)
I broke a mirror, my luck improved
destroyed a myth, threw away my clown's costume
been strolling naked through the fields of my dreams
unscarred by illusion, I'm now me it seems

(Bridge)
Joker has died, and now I find my vision’s clear
dispel the blackness inside, repair the holes in your life
face your fears.

2)
I pulled a wishbone, it cut up my hands
and superstition is confined to man
can't digest religion, it's just somewhere to hide
if you never search my friend, you'll never find

Nothing to hide, now the joker has died, how's it feel?
get rid of the blackness inside, and the holes in your pride
face your fears.

(Middle 8)
You can keep all of your pretensions
keep all of the tricks you can steal
get real - let's get real
let's get real - see how it feels
let's get real, let's be real
let's see how it feels - to be real.

3)
Hey listen children, we cannot fly
there is no maker, to meet when you die
your role model's fragile, it broke in my hands
we're losing our substance to blindness in hand

Originally Posted by: stacknyDude, I dont hate anybody. Muslims included. Half my friends arent Christians. Never said I dislike or hated anyone because they are going to hell. I just said, I think my religion is correct and theirs isnt, therefore, they wont see heaven unless they change. [/QUOTE]
Have fun in heaven by yourself then. I'm gonna go have a party with the rest of the world in hell.

Originally Posted by: stackny
Dictionary Definition of "Faith"-Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.[/QUOTE]
Keyword = Belief
Which is completely different from factual knowledge.

Originally Posted by: stackny
or the definition you might prefer

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's what I meant.

[QUOTE=stackny]
Either way, neither definition says impossible. Who are you to say God is impossible? You simply cant. You can say you dont believe he exists, but you cannot say his existance is an impossibility.

A being that always has been and always will be that can create worlds in six days defies all biological possibilities. That's the entire basis of it. God is a god. An immortal being. That is not possible because everything dies. Therefore if something is immortal it has pulled off the impossible. That's the entire basis of the whole deal. The belief in the impossible and the belief that you will be rewarded for believing the impossible. The Bible doesn't even argue those points. Every miraculous act of God is impossible by humans. That's what God does. Defies the possible.

Furthermore, neither definition says impossible, that is true. But neither said anything about factual knowledge either.

[QUOTE=stackny]
My faith is built upon prophecies that are being fulfilled before our eyes, for example the situation in the middle east with the Jews and Palestinians, a common currency going throughout Europe, Jews being persecuted all over the world, plans to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, etc. I like the whole creation evolution debate as you know, and there is just no explaination for life other than it being planted here by "something." My faith is not built upon the fact that God exists, because there is nothing that is factual that can prove there is a god, but the way he has shown us his prescence.

To say that there is no explanation for life other than being put here by something (when in your case referring to God) and following up by saying that God isn't factual is an oxymoron. Of course I agree that God isn't factual. I'm right there with you on that one, but to say that we absolutely had to have been put here by something (let alone in the same paragraph) is just taking the answer you want and throwing every other possible answer out the window.

[QUOTE=stackny]
Im not categorizing people by who is going to hell and who isnt. Thats all I have to say about that. Im not. Theres no such thing as a one way ticket to hell anyways, because everyone has the opportunity to change.

Well, then people aren't necessarily damned or wrong for not believing what you believe is right. And why don't you have to be the one to change? Sure, you believe you're right, but there's still the chance that you're not. Therefore, why don't you have to be the one to change from time to time?

Originally Posted by: acapella rapemeFrick sakes, guys! Nobody wins religious debates, ever! You're not going to change anybody's mind, you'll never make anybody see things your way. Everybody thinks they are right, and nothing you say will change that. It's arguing for the sake of arguing. Why not argue about something where a conclusion might be drawn, an agreement of some sort can be found, and everybody can move on?

Because we're all too immature - and because it's fun... :D

And yeah, sorry Earthman, I should have been more clear: I meant that I don't personally know any Catholics who go around committing atrocities. I am well aware that Hitler was a Catholic - but he was not, in any ethical sense of the word, a Christian.

Originally Posted by: earthman buckI once read this Paul McCartney interview where he said that "God" is just "Good" minus a letter, and "Devil" is just "Evil" plus a letter. He also said he doesn't really believe in God or the Devil, just the basic principles of good and evil. Whether you believe in God or not (or a different God/Gods), I think you should just be a good person. Don't kill, don't rape. If it's something that harms another person, it's bad. Don't do it. If there is a heaven, chances are you'll make it in. If not, at least you were a good person. People will remember you for that.

I used ot wonder, as a kid, why all the old folk used to be going to church every Sunday. One of them said "As you get older, you get closer to meeting God. Would you want to take a chance on him not really existing?" Food for thought!

Originally Posted by: jiujitsu_jesusAnd yeah, sorry Earthman, I should have been more clear: I meant that I don't personally know any Catholics who go around committing atrocities. I am well aware that Hitler was a Catholic - but he was not, in any ethical sense of the word, a Christian.

But then, neither are a lot of so-called "Christians." The ones who abhorr and ridicule people with different beliefs than theirs. I believe the Christian Bible says "Love thy neighbour," does it not? Ridicule isn't love. And I know you're gonna say it's done out of love, but is it really? Bashing someone else's beliefs?

Bible also says nobody is better than anybody else.

Originally Posted by: GaddyI used ot wonder, as a kid, why all the old folk used to be going to church every Sunday. One of them said "As you get older, you get closer to meeting God. Would you want to take a chance on him not really existing?" Food for thought!

A sentence like that sounds more like someone's worshipping out of the fear of what might happen if they don't follow God. And if you ask me that's not faith. Why follow something because you're afraid of what it'll do to you if you don't? Personally, I think God would prefer me to embrace my lack of faith since I'm being honest with myself and everyone around me. It's what truly makes sense to me, therefore I will follow it. Can God really cast me into hell for that? For being honest?

Originally Posted by: earthman buckBut then, neither are a lot of so-called "Christians." The ones who abhorr and ridicule people with different beliefs than theirs. I believe the Christian Bible says "Love thy neighbour," does it not? Ridicule isn't love. And I know you're gonna say it's done out of love, but is it really? Bashing someone else's beliefs?

No, I'm not going to say it's done out of love. I'm going to say it's done out of bigotry, ignorance, and an over-inflated sense of self-righteousness.

I happen to believe in the Christian conception of God, but that doesn't mean I believe that all other such conceptions are inaccurate. All religions are equal in terms of spiritual validity; recognising this, as reflected in the Biblical passage you quoted, is one of the fundamental tenets of Christian faith. I agree with you, Earthman: if you can't reconcile your own religious convictions with recognising the sanctity of other belief systems, you don't deserve to call yourself a "Christian" - or a "Muslim", or a "Jew", or a "Hindu", or a "Buddhist", or a "Satanist" for that matter! Stackny, I don't believe you are one of these people, as you have acknowledged that Christianity is not necessarily superior to Islam. But you would do well, in my opinion, to show a little more appreciation for the validity of other faiths (sorry, I'm patronising you again, aren't I? :o ).

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsA sentence like that sounds more like someone's worshipping out of the fear of what might happen if they don't follow God. And if you ask me that's not faith. Why follow something because you're afraid of what it'll do to you if you don't? Personally, I think God would prefer me to embrace my lack of faith since I'm being honest with myself and everyone around me. It's what truly makes sense to me, therefore I will follow it. Can God really cast me into hell for that? For being honest?

I'm no theologian (yet :rolleyes: :D ), but you're right, Cryptic. And as long as you don't go and murder six million people, you ought to be alright! :D

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsA sentence like that sounds more like someone's worshipping out of the fear of what might happen if they don't follow God. And if you ask me that's not faith. Why follow something because you're afraid of what it'll do to you if you don't? Personally, I think God would prefer me to embrace my lack of faith since I'm being honest with myself and everyone around me. It's what truly makes sense to me, therefore I will follow it. Can God really cast me into hell for that? For being honest?[/QUOTE]
I look at it that way too. Also, I think "If God would really cast me into hell for believing what I believe, do I really want to be in heaven with Him?" No. Because that God seems like a jerk.

[QUOTE=jiujitsu_jesus]I happen to believe in the Christian conception of God, but that doesn't mean I believe that all other such conceptions are inaccurate. All religions are equal in terms of spiritual validity; recognising this, as reflected in the Biblical passage you quoted, is one of the fundamental tenets of Christian faith.

Absolutely. All religions I know of (at least the major ones) are based on peace and love. I don't see where the conflict comes from between religions. My guess is.........religious chavs.

[QUOTE=Cryptic Excretions]A sentence like that sounds more like someone's worshipping out of the fear of what might happen if they don't follow God.QUOTE]

I agree. The "Would you want to take a chance on him not really existing?" was part of the quote by the way, not my thoughts. Personally I think we are all God, all with the power to do good (or bad) and tho I'm essentially a 'good' person, some may think I've already bought my ticket. Unfortunately, when a bit younger I went to the Clapton, Richards, school of Rock, and although I endured a living hell of sorts, I only ever hurt me. And yet some may say I have sinned. We'll only really know when we get there, if the pearly gates are real, when I hear "Your names not down 'ere, ya not comin' in!" and of course, by then it will already be too late. :(

Originally Posted by: jiujitsu_jesusI'm no theologian (yet :rolleyes: :D ), but you're right, Cryptic. And as long as you don't go and murder six million people, you ought to be alright! :D

Haha, yeah, as long as there's someone worse, whatever you're doing is ok!

Rationalization is fun!

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonHaha, yeah, as long as there's someone worse, whatever you're doing is ok!

Rationalization is fun!

Hey God. Can I get in for $20?

Originally Posted by: earthman buck I don't see where the conflict comes from between religions. My guess is.........religious chavs.

Look at Northern Ireland for an example. Just good, decent folk, like the rest of us, yet neighbourhood against neighbourhood, in the name of religion. I don't want to enter choppy waters here, its just an example, but why didn't someone, a long time ago, agree on a kind of hybrid religion, whereby there's something in it for everyone? Or would mans greed see one group wanting just that little bit more in the clause?

:confused: Hey Jolly, I can't access the tracks on your site, it says "Refresh your browser". Are there any tracks on there?

Originally Posted by: jiujitsu_jesus But you would do well, in my opinion, to show a little more appreciation for the validity of other faiths (sorry, I'm patronising you again, aren't I? :o ).

I'm sorry if I'm taking what you are saying out of context, but if you show apreciation for the validitity of other faiths, that pretty much means you're admitting yours might be wrong. You can't have doubts about your faith.

Originally Posted by: ericthecableguyI'm sorry if I'm taking what you are saying out of context, but if you show apreciation for the validitity of other faiths, that pretty much means you're admitting yours might be wrong. You can't have doubts about your faith.

That's the basis of agnostism. The understanding that no one knows for sure. It's all faith, actual knowledge is a whole different story. You can be a Christian-agnostic, provided you undestand that you're working off of faith rather than fact. And that's not really a bad thing, if you ask me.