Cobain v.s. Hendrix

Originally Posted by: FireAndIce24

Originally Posted by: paradymeI personally find Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Kerry King, Kirk Hammett, Randy Rhoads, and especially Eddie Van Halen to bore me to tears.

.....joe bores you? vai bores you? only the two most versatile and craziest guitarist of the age bore you? whats wrong with your ears man? I know you got an opinion of your own but i dont think that stament can ever been really true for anyone.

For one thing, Satch and Vai's audience is almost exclusively musicians with a heavy emphasis on guitarists (which should tell you something) and for another, I know a lot of very talented musicians who agree with him.

Shred isn't for everybody; your "two most versatile and craziest guitarist of the age" are somebody else's "boring, mindless guitar wankers."

And as this is all subject to taste, you both would be right.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollyson
...Since you mentioned "millions" of bands influenced by Cobain (an exaggeration I assume), allow me to retort with a few bands that would never have existed /sounded like they did/do without Hendrix.

Led Zeppelin
ZZ Top...

I'd have to argue that those two bands were much more influenced by a lot of the same Delta blues players that Jimi was. And didn't we just discuss how it was B. Gibbons who was possibly influential to Jimi (at the least infatuated)?

Originally Posted by: R. ShackleferdI'd have to argue that those two bands were much more influenced by a lot of the same Delta blues players that Jimi was. And didn't we just discuss how it was B. Gibbons who was possibly influential to Jimi (at the least infatuated)?

It's true that Jimi Hendrix liked Gibbons' playing when he heard it. Not that he was influenced by it. It's not likely that Hendrix was sitting around playing along with Gibbons' records, the opposite, however, is fairly likely. Also, the fat, distorted, guitar sound of those bands would not exist without Hendrix' moving the guitar to the forefront of rock bands.

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovFor one thing, Satch and Vai's audience is almost exclusively musicians with a heavy emphasis on guitarists (which should tell you something) and for another, I know a lot of very talented musicians who agree with him.

Shred isn't for everybody; your "two most versatile and craziest guitarist of the age" are somebody else's "boring, mindless guitar wankers."

And as this is all subject to taste, you both would be right.

satch isnt a mindless wanker in any sense. at least his newer stuff. he has quite a lot of non shred songs which are quite hard not to enjoy. and im not talking just for myself or just for musicians. and Eddie being boring? come on....after so many notes that arnt grunge-y enough make you sick? at that point its not taste, its wanting to stick to an idea of what is good music. yeah we all got opinoins, but thats just bad musical taste...especially for a guitarist

Originally Posted by: FireAndIce24satch isnt a mindless wanker in any sense. at least his newer stuff.[/quote]This may be your opinion (and one shared by a lot of people here), but it's not true of everybody and it's unrealistic to expect it to be.

Originally Posted by: FireAndIce24he has quite a lot of non shred songs which are quite hard not to enjoy.[/quote]Again, your opinion.

Originally Posted by: FireAndIce24and im not talking just for myself or just for musicians.[/quote]Say what you will, with the exception of my Uncle (who played trumpet back in high school), every Satriani fan I know is a guitarist and I don't know a single Vai fan who isn't.


[QUOTE=FireAndIce24]and Eddie being boring? come on....

On the Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres by Nicolaus Copernicus was a landmark event in both Astronimy and Mathmatics, not only for proving the Helio-centric model of the solar system and putting all the (then) known planets into the correct order, but also for a number of other revolutionary insights.

But to me, it's the most boring compilation of words, diagrams and figures I've ever subjected myself to.

Yet, by that same token, I find Richard Dawkins' dry, lengthy, tedious and wholly logical books on Evolutionary Theory infinately fascinating.

Now that I think about it, I have a cousin that isn't interested in music at all. It's all a matter of taste and what interests one person isn't going to interest everybody else.


[QUOTE=FireAndIce24]at that point its not taste, its wanting to stick to an idea of what is good music.

No, it is taste and that you're discussing this in subjective terms such as "good" is proof of this.

Personally, I can't fathom how anyone can't like Morphine's low tones, brooding, dark, sexually-charged atmosphere and poetic lyrics, but my buddy Carl finds them boring and repetitive. Yet, he'll listen to Blues shuffles all day long.

When it comes to music, we all listen for and find different things in it. We are all individuals and so even among guitarists, you're going to find a wide variety of perspectives on how the instrument should be played and and can be best implemented in a band.


[QUOTE=FireAndIce24]yeah we all got opinoins, but thats just bad musical taste...especially for a guitarist

First off, ask any seasoned guitarist here; there is no faster way to lose an audience made up of "your average Joes" than to spend as much time soloing as Satch or Vai do. The "average Joe" is listening to "the beat," the melody, and the lyrics (not necessarily in that order) and everything else isn't much relevent to them. Pop record producers (rock and country) are very conscious of this and sucessful bands understand it intiatively. Hell, even Frank Zappa who always employed the best musicians he could get his hands on (including Vai and Adrian Belew) would forgo extensive soloing and technical virtuosity in his arrangements when he felt the need to cater to certain audiences.

How fast or cleanly you sweep (or how original your music is) isn't nearly as important to Average Joe as what they're listening to "sounding good" and when it comes to that, Curt Cobain has just as good a shot as any "technical" guitar legend you can think of.

In a way, that makes me sad, but then again I also realize that I don't care how well scripted, cast, acted, directed or special effects'd a horror movie is, it's just not my bag.


So, if you're looking to impress other guitarists, Vai and Satch are great influences. If your focus is more on songwriting, then they're probably not the guys you want to be idolizing.

Personally, I think something in between is best, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovOn the Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres[/i] by Nicolaus Copernicus was a landmark event in both Astronimy and Mathmatics, not only for proving the Helio-centric model of the solar system and putting all the (then) known planets into the correct order, but also for a number of other revolutionary insights.

But to me, it's the most boring compilation of words, diagrams and figures I've ever subjected myself to.

Yet, by that same token, I find Richard Dawkins' dry, lengthy, tedious and wholly logical books on Evolutionary Theory infinately fascinating.

Yeah, but sometimes it is the presentation of material...I took an advanced recording techniques class at community college but the teacher was able to take that potentially exciting class and make it a really boring 4 hours on most days. It had its moments though...one day the class used me as guitarist, or we had bands come in and we'd do a song for em for free. But most days the teachers monotone delivery drove me to extensive doodling and cartooning.

Agreed.

But again, different deliveries and teaching styles work better for different people. My typing teacher made my typing class a hoot for myself and almost everybody else in the class while only managing to get my best friend really pissed off.

ya but you have to consider that i am talking to a guitarists here. if hes doesnt like any soloist type players and enjoys listening to the same three or four chords over and over again, thats fine but how could you limit your self to that? there just so much more out there beyond that. a guitarist is a musician! not a average joe. theres gotta be passion (you can put that into 3 chords, listen to blues) but like i said stopping at that is just incomprehensible to me.
Your example of you finding some subject fasinating while others don't is slightly different than this. We are talking about two guitarists having different ideas, a much more narrow field than peoples interests.

but of course this is all just my opinion and they all differ.
and i have no intention of getting into an argument first thing coming to this board.

Originally Posted by: FireAndIce24ya but you have to consider that i am talking to a guitarists here. if hes doesnt like any soloist type players and enjoys listening to the same three or four chords over and over again, thats fine but how could you limit your self to that?[/quote]
Mr. Bungle = three or four chords?

Because they're sure not a band you want to listen to for guitar solos.

Originally Posted by: FireAndIce24there just so much more out there beyond that.[/quote]
Just as soloing is a very small part of the guitar as an instrument; different chord progressions, voicings, and rhythmic devices, dynamic elements, melodic themes... I could go on.

Originally Posted by: FireAndIce24a guitarist is a musician! not a average joe. theres gotta be passion (you can put that into 3 chords, listen to blues) but like i said stopping at that is just incomprehensible to me.

1. Not everybody we play for are guitarists.
2. The last thing I'd describe a band like Nirvana as is "un-passionate."


[QUOTE=FireAndIce24]Your example of you finding some subject fasinating while others don't is slightly different than this. We are talking about two guitarists having different ideas, a much more narrow field than peoples interests.

I don't think so, take my brother as an example:

He's a very compitent musician. He plays guitar, drums and bass (all well) and learned to play trombone well enough to play it in a ska band in less than a week. The general rule with him is if he decides he wants to learn it, he can.

That said, he has no desire to plays solos. It's not that he can't (I've seen him play them), he simply has no interest in it. What interests him is song structure and rhythmic devices. I've seen him spend hours at my computer inventing odd time signatures and polyrhythms. When we were in a band together, he once mad us rewrite a chorus so he could use this odd drum beat he'd written. The most complicated song we had (structure-wise, not from a technical standpoint) was a "Punk" song he wrote. He's the reason we had the irregular tempo changes that we did, he's the one who wrote/advocated/inspired both our heaviest and most chilled material and he's the reason we didn't have a single drum solo -- because he refused to take one.

So, is he a bad musician or is his taste in music bad because Steve Vai bores him?


[QUOTE=FireAndIce24]but of course this is all just my opinion and they all differ.
and i have no intention of getting into an argument first thing coming to this board.

Arguments are (technically) not allowed, however debates are more than welcome.

whoa! when did i ever say different chord progressions, voicings, and rhythmic devices, dynamic elements, melodic themes, were better than solos? a good Chord progression beats a ****y but fast solo any day.

1. Not everybody we play for are guitarists.

Of course not but as a guitarist you should try to explore your instrument.

2. The last thing I'd describe a band like Nirvana as is "un-passionate."

Your right they are passionate. I was talking about not bothering to go on beyond a couple chords. Like you said, they could at least play around with voicings, rythmic devices and so on.

So, is he a bad musician or is his taste in music bad because Steve Vai bores him?

If Vai bores him that opinion, but I doubt that anyone like your brother would be bored. Vai's got some crazy chord progessions, changes and rythms. If hes bored by the amount soloing (which is way too much IMO) thats different.

BTW, whats Mr. Bungle like, music-wise?

Originally Posted by: FireAndIce24BTW, whats Mr. Bungle like, music-wise?

They're an experimental Ska band. And, yeah, those guys are pretty brilliant. Check out their songs "Egg" and "The Girls of Porn." Reminds me of Frank Zappa.

Originally Posted by: FireAndIce24If Vai bores him that opinion, but I doubt that anyone like your brother would be bored. Vai's got some crazy chord progessions, changes and rythms. If hes bored by the amount soloing (which is way too much IMO) thats different.[/quote]
To my brother, an overly-technical, emotionless musician is "a Vai."

That said, he loves Dimebag and Buckethead, but they have much more interesting songs.


[QUOTE=FireAndIce24]BTW, whats Mr. Bungle like, music-wise?

Think: A chaotic collage of sounds. Twisted Jazz and Metal interspersed with crashes, samples and strange vocal screams and ravings.

I love their album Disco Volante, but I can't listen to it when I'm drunk; it freaks me out.

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovTo my brother, an overly-technical, emotionless musician is "a Vai."

That said, he loves Dimebag and Buckethead, but they have much more interesting songs.

Well, it also helps that Buckethead's the ****ING MAN.

but I can't listen to it when I'm drunk; it freaks me out.

LOL, ill be sure to check them out. Sounds like my kinda music, I went from listening to Rancid, operation Ivy to Ska stuff like mighty might bosstones, reel big fish and mustard plug (< i love that band) .....then i heard EVH and preist and was hooked on metal.

If anyone wants my opinion...

I hate this stupid mentality about everyone thinking a shredder is boring. If the guitarist is a shredder, he gets instant hate because people say hes boring. Thats a bunch of BS, cause most shredders are not boring, only a handfull are. Sure, they may not put feeling into their music, but they are not boring.

Heck classical guitar is shows not feeling if you just listen to it by itself, though if its backround music in a movie or so, it adds tons of feeling, yet no one bags on them... That analogy applies to shredders aswell
Everyone always compromises about shredders. If your slow, you show feeling = good. If your fast, then your boring = bad. Though, that is rarly the case.

For the guy who said Satch and Vai are boring, how are they?

Most people just give an excuse for shredders for being boring, when most of time they are not.

Let me just name a few:
Marty Friedman
Van Halen
Joe Satriani
Randy Rhoads
Dimebag Darrell
Jason Becker (don't belive me, listen to Serrena)
Paul Gilbert
Greg Howe
Steve Vai
Al Pitrelli
Herman Li
Glen Tipton
Vinnie Moore
Eric Johnson
and MANY more, this was only a list that I wrote out out of the top of my head.

[font=trebuchet ms]Don't sweat it - it's not a personal attack. After some years (many of them), it will occur to you that you have nothing to prove. Then, the ability to play "too many notes" will be seen for what it is. Until then, by all means, please indulge and enjoy to your heart's content. Like youth itself, such intense skill is wasted on the young.[/font]

u kno im 14 and didnt grow up in either era and wat is happening in the music world now is totally trash...but that is another story....u say that ahhh kurt wrote sang and played but so did jimi and i dont think that cobain could of orchestrated songs like all along the watchtower, little wing, and the likes....and i would hav liked to c cobain captivate woodstock like jimi.....

Originally Posted by: gogogoi dont think that cobain could of orchestrated songs like all along the watchtower

Neither did Jimi -- that's a Bob Dylan song.

Also, in terms of song structure and chord progressions, I can think of several Nirvana songs which are far more complicated than All Along the Watchtower.

i would jus attribute them as great assets the music world jimi moved us in his day and cobain in his its not fair to knock either they were great artist and inspirations

Revolutionary? C'mon...definitely not Cobain...sorry, but he's just another godson to Neil Young....and that's the true inspiration to the whole grunge thing

Hendrix was pulling stuff from nowhere. He was being truly inventive, Cobain was recycling...

m