Well, kingdavid, since you asked...


kingdavid
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kingdavid
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05/13/2004 3:47 pm
Lordatherings,this is interesting:
I'm looking at the foot of this thread and I'm "currently active users viewing this thread-kingdavid,lordatherings"
So I'm waiting to see what you're going to write.:)
# 1
Lordathestrings
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05/13/2004 3:58 pm
I sense that the discussion is slowing down, so as soon as I can find a link to the article that occupied the other half of the page I started this thread with, I'll set another cat among the pigeons! :D
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# 2
ketsueki15
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05/13/2004 6:15 pm
Originally Posted by: InisfailConsidering Iraq I just wanted to add one thing: If the American president would ask UN for help, which I promiss that he will during the summer, I don't know what the UN-members will say. I don't know either:

read what pony said

By the way, why are you so angry at the Iraqie people? You attacked them, right? Should they be happy cause you got rid of Saddam? They were some days after the capturing (not all, cause some of the people, the Baath members and a lot of the shiamuslims, lost power and they are not happy), but since nothing have become better, why should they be happy?

We didnt attack the Iraqi people as a whole..we attcked the Iraqi leadership and when that was taken, the others that benefeited off sadam didnt like that we took him out of power and the others that were represed by sadam thought that we came over their to occupy their country..WHo in the hell wants Iraq?? 3/4ths of our military want out of their..I think that can apply to any other countries military other there.

Belive me, many people in Iraq think like this, wheter you want it or not: They got rid of Saddam, and he was evil. He tortured prisoners, he killed civilans and he was very unpredictable. But as far as I've seen, the americans do exactly the same thing.

Is all you do is read what the media says..It was that one prison and those people that tortured the Iraqis.. Not all americans treat the Iraqis like ****.Alot of them want to help the Iraqis..You seem to only care about what we have done to iraqss and not care about what they have done to America and other countries...We dont burn,mutilate, beat and dismemeber their bodies then hang them from a birdges and behead them and record it on video...I guess the media didnt tell you about that.

Pony: that beheaded american was warned by the military to leave before he was captured..I still think its sick that they did that to him..
I think im going to call this quits...Im tired of arguing with people.
Oh yeah, my answers are all in the quoted area.
In memory of Randy Rhoads
# 3
Hammurabi
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05/13/2004 7:20 pm
Thanks to us being in Iraq,

* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.

Prisoner abuse or not good stuff happens when the United States gets motivated.
"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
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Jimmi431
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05/13/2004 7:40 pm
Hammurabi now thats somethin i have never heard, read or seen. Just goes to show what the media is willing to report in detail about. an makes ya think is the media responsible for creating the anti-war feeling or is it reflecting it.
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Inisfail
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05/13/2004 7:46 pm
Originally Posted by: ketsueki15Is all you do is read what the media says..It was that one prison and those people that tortured the Iraqis.. Not all americans treat the Iraqis like ****.Alot of them want to help the Iraqis..You seem to only care about what we have done to iraqss and not care about what they have done to America and other countries...We dont burn,mutilate, beat and dismemeber their bodies then hang them from a birdges and behead them and record it on video...I guess the media didnt tell you about that.


Well, first I must tell you that the averege Iraqi citizen wont see pictures of good natured american soldiers these days on local (probably al-jazira) televisions. They will see the damn pictures of the tortured Iraqi soldiers! I can't change that, that's how the nature of modern media works. Of course I know that mostly of the other Iraqi prisoners have the genevé-comition rights and that American soldiers in almost any case respect that, but that's not what will give any damn media any kind of viewers. They must show the extreme stuff, the stuff that will make the big part of the people to react, otherwise noone would look!!


But I also wonder what you expected yourself when you attacked a country that have never in human history been a democracy? Nice soliders who follows all the human rights etc.? For christ sake, wasn't you prepared? I don't say that the American soldiers deserves it, cause no one has the right to take another persons life nor himiluate anyone, wheter it's a Iraqi or an American. I believe everyone agree with me in that case.
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# 6
Inisfail
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05/13/2004 8:03 pm
Oh, ketsueki15 I missed that you had answered some qestions. I will make somekind of re-reply to them now:

"We have already asked the UN for help..."

Well, you didn't get support because due to the UN regulation you didn't have the right to declare war against Iraq (or Saddam Hussein and his terrorists, if that sound better). If the weaponinspectors could have continued there work maybe they would have found materials or whatever that maybe, maybe could justifie an attack. But the US were impatienced, why? There are many people who have many answers on that..

By the way, that France-should-help-because-of-the-WW2 talk is kinda funny, cause if you're such good history-students, never forgett it's thanx to France that USA didn't continued to be a Brittian colony..

"We didnt attack the Iraqi people as a whole..we attcked the Iraqi leadership and when that was taken, the others that benefeited off sadam didnt like that we took him out of power and the others that were represed by sadam thought that we came over their to occupy their country.."

Soooo, if the whole point just was to take away Saddam, why wasn't this done when father Bushed ruled the country and almost stood outside Bagdad??? Was Saddam somekind of nice-guy at that time? Nooo, he had done the horrible gas-attack against the Curds long before that. Someone said it was other gov't that ruled at that time, but when it was the same family, the politic should been almost the same? No, I think there are some reasons that noone maybe never will know more than the most powerfull man in the world and his closest men.

Ps. All quotes was from ketsueki15 Ds.
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Hammurabi
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05/13/2004 8:15 pm
What I'm wondering about is who really cares about those supposed WMDs? Saddam was guilty of genocide. We have found mass graves. That's enough to take his arse down the way I see it.
"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
# 8
ketsueki15
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ketsueki15
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05/13/2004 8:59 pm
Thank you Hammurabi for finally positng somthing good that this war has done..People seem to just feed off the bad things that the media says

first of all the whole france thing..it was supposed to be deleted when i clicked save changes to edited post..I guess that didnt happen and about the UN thing...screw what i said and read what pony said...About your last question..read what hammurabi said..Killing your own people ect must have been a good enough reason to the president to attack iraq..If thats not a good enough reason for you..get over it..Why didnt father Bush finish it off? Well..THAT WASNT HIS GOAL at that time...Seniors Bush's goal was to stop Iraq from invading Kuwait along with the help of other nations. It was known as the Persian Gulf War...Not the Iraqi war..If you knew anytihng about the two then you would know that they were 2 different wars with different goals in mind
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# 9
Inisfail
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05/13/2004 10:27 pm
Haha, okey.. I'll shut my mouth then. :(
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# 10
educatedfilm
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05/13/2004 10:42 pm
bugger... It looks i'm later to this... I've not read alot of the posts, so I might miss a few things..

Anne Coulter: she's a quack as far as im concerned... see http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter091301.shtml
What's very worrying is that when Anne Coulter says Bin Laden wants to attack the US, it's taken as fact... but when i see a Bin Laden's Statement on Aljazeera saying that the only way of dealing with occupation is to take up arms (this is a rough translation from arabic, before poeple shoot me down for not being 100% on it), no one has a clue about this. No one seems to know what Bin Laden is actually saying. He's become more folklore than news.

Fact is we (the british) as well as the 'mericans are occupying forces in iraq at the moment, and wether we like it or not, the iraqi's have the right to fight it, that's why we need them on side.
So we sold the idea of some kind of rightous liberation, and how we would build a country for these poor people (after it was found out that actually the main reason for going to war wasnt actually real).
Photo's pop up of what seriously looks like torture in the same place we librated the iraqi's from. So the word liberate is now becomming more of a fancy than a serious goal.
I still keep seeing people, saying why dont we see pictures of torture under saddam? It's ok if saddam tortures but if our troops do then it's an outrage?
Well, it is an outrage. Firstly, we dont take our moral compass from Saddam, that's why we took him out of power. Secondly, after no WMDs showing up, the "liberation" is now souly the reason we're in iraq, and it appears that poeple's human rights arent part of the liberation. Bush Knew about these from January (i think), and only decided to condemn them when it was in the press...

Have you taken into account the number of civilians killed in this liberation? What about the number of poeple under sanctions?

About the media. I cant believe that embeded jernos are now considered a serious source of news. Al jazeera in my oppinion, is more impartial than the BBC. It's very worrying that poeple (who dont speak arabic) take it as fact that Al jazeera is basically a terrorist channel. Ofcourse they're going to disagree with what the us admin are putting out (especially when they film F16 firing into Faluja and the cammo c-nts are saying No we're not. That really did make wretch).


Hammurabi (where you from by the way? you know that name is from what's now called iraq :)): where did you get that from? I'm not calling you a liar. I've spoken to poeple here who have relatives in Bagdad, and er...that doesnt match a line of that list. When did girls get excluded from school for a start? Are you sure that's not pentagonian statement from the Afganistan era? Voting for whom exactly? I think that's a list for Santa...
What's the US done to adress the Kurds who want a seperate state? (on a side not, the take away across from the road is run by an iraqi kurd, but he still says he's from Kurdistan... which took me a while to figure out what he meant). The US's main ally, Turkey has declared that it'll crush any kurdish uprising, no discussion about it.

How can any of you talk about what iraqi's think, when what you hear has been channeled through the f-ing pentagon?!!!!!!!!! I'm an arab my self, and i get to talk to some arab's around here, which includes an iraqi family. From what i understand, they're happy Saddam is gone, but certainly not happy about the US being there. I think it's very sad some poeple think that the Us will go and liberate poeple out of the kindness of thier hearts, while no one talks aobut who's going to foot the bill. Anyone hear about how much the Kuwaiti's are paying to their gulf war saviours?

About the mass graves: Has anyone heard the Us admin talk about the mass graves being the victims of suddam's regiem? I certianly havent. It's just been left to hearsay and conjecture from poeple like the lovely the s.s. blonde Anne. I think i need to look into it, but it was mentioned that the mass graves were infact iraqi soldiers killed from the first gulf war. Wich to me makes more sense...

Gassing the Kurds: hmmm, has anyone else seen the photo of Donald Rumsfeld shakin hands with Suddam in the early eighties? Do you know why he did that?
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
(brief note about the first gulf war: how many of you know that Iraq was promised oil well's from kuwait for the iran/ iraq war? Kuwait didnt cough up, and Suddam went in... Its wrong and there's no justification, but how many of you knew this at all?).

I'm totally against the war. Suddam was a tyrant. However there was no justfication to going and OCCUPYING iraq, with Wolfowitz still licking his lips at the sight of Syria... Where are the WMDs? Where was the Cakewalk victory? What about the claims of as little as 30,000 would be deployed? Why the f- does Paul Wolfwitz still have a job? (shouldnt he do a "richard pearle")?
The Bush admin has links to oil, wich you cant really brush off when it comes to war in an oil rich country like iraq.
"Killing your own people ect must have been a good enough reason to the president to attack iraq"
Well, what about Saudi? The Us admin know what's going on there, and that Saudi has produced more terrorist that any other country? oh except this oil rich tyranny is actually freindly with US trade... Dont get me wrong, I dont want war with saudi at all, it's just the contrast in approaches is stark when it comes to oil rich tyrannies that are complaint and those that arent to US oil needs...

I hope that made some sense... I've been out of sync politically for while, so i might have missed some points, and I did type it as i thought it, so that's why it's not so structured...
but it's nice to see musicans reading/ writing stuff other than bloody guitar mags...heeheh
Take care!
# 11
Inisfail
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05/13/2004 11:00 pm
Ah, you've understand everything Educatedfilm, feels good not to be the only one who's against the war.. Ops, I opened my mouth.. :confused:
Peace Sells... But Who's Buying?
# 12
educatedfilm
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05/13/2004 11:05 pm
lol... no i dont understand everything..
by the way it's a side point, but stuff get's said on forums wich sounds a bit harsh, but from my experience, 9/10 is not really meant so... it's just when you look at content of what poeple say without the tone of their voice or body language or whatever, it can give you the wrong impression...

I hope i didnt sound harsh in my post... parts of it are a bit jokey (like the santa list comment), and not making fun of anyone..

God, I remember the days when i used to be a moderator round here...

Where you from Inisfail? Actually, where is everyone from?

I'll begin: I'm from england, though i was born in Libya.
# 13
Inisfail
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05/13/2004 11:13 pm
Haha, I guess not..

Well, I think some people take this subject way to personal. I mean, peoples opinions are different, but as someone said in another thread -> When people get up on the net they shut their open minds and are ready to hold their position at any cost. As you mentioned, educatedfilm, it's different when you stand infront of someone; here on the net, everyone's just 1:s and 0:s.
Peace Sells... But Who's Buying?
# 14
ketsueki15
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05/14/2004 2:25 am
I find this one of the few topics that i take personally mainly because In a military family and see it from a complete oppisite view from the most of you..
And educated, your right abought how people take stuff or what not when its written on the internet but were i do disagree with you is about the war...I am totally for the war..any time a crazy tyrant like Sadam or Hitler come into power and cause crap, they need to be taken out of power..And yes there have been mass graves found that were not from the gulf war...I dont know who said that there werent mass graves
People are never happy no matter what..We take a tyrant out of power then the people want us gone that next minute (well it seems like it) .. I **Personally** beleive that Iraq isnt stable and if we were to turn their government back over to the Iraqi counsil or whoever runs the country that It wouldnt last long..thats just my belief
Im trying to sound nicer in this post that i was before..I dont know if it worked or not..lol
In memory of Randy Rhoads
# 15
Lordathestrings
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Lordathestrings
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05/14/2004 6:58 am
Originally Posted by: ketsueki15... I **Personally** beleive that Iraq isnt stable and if we were to turn their government back over to the Iraqi counsil or whoever runs the country that It wouldnt last long...
Some thoughts from a very thoughtful man...It's religion gone mad and A religion hijacked
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# 16
Lordathestrings
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05/14/2004 7:16 am
The Anne Coulter article you pointed to is indeed a chilling piece. It is also simply an opinion. The article I led off this thread with raises some very disturbing issues based on [u]verifiable facts[/u].

As for whether the US actions against Saddam Hussein's regime were properly justified, how can anyone base strong religious beliefs on the word of someone who has proven that their word is a matter of convenience? Beware bin Laden's deceitful ruse I begin to suspect that Islam may be entirely based on falsehood. Or a false prophet.
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# 17
Hammurabi
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05/14/2004 7:27 am
Originally Posted by: educatedfilmHammurabi (where you from by the way? you know that name is from what's now called iraq :)): where did you get that from? I'm not calling you a liar. I've spoken to poeple here who have relatives in Bagdad, and er...that doesnt match a line of that list. When did girls get excluded from school for a start? Are you sure that's not pentagonian statement from the Afganistan era? Voting for whom exactly? I think that's a list for Santa...


It's from an email from Ray Reynolds, a medic from my state serving in Iraq.

I'm from Iowa, I just think Hammurabi was one cool fellow. Seriously, how many people do you know who can take a small in-debt community of whores and bums and make it the greatest civilization in the world?
"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
# 18
kingdavid
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05/14/2004 4:04 pm
Originally Posted by: educatedfilm...we dont take our moral compass from Saddam, that's why we took him out of power...[/quote]
Funny how people don't see this.
I'm really surprised at some of the sentiments I'm seeing expressed here.
[quote=educatedfilm]
Hammurabi...where did you get that from? I'm not calling you a liar. I've spoken to poeple here who have relatives in Bagdad, and er...that doesnt match a line of that list. When did girls get excluded from school for a start? Are you sure that's not pentagonian statement from the Afganistan era? Voting for whom exactly? I think that's a list for Santa...

I think if you're on a given side of the fence,you'll want to believe the best of the side you're on.
It's human nature.
Never mind whether what you believe is verifiable.and listen to me.I can't "verify" anything I say against Bush,so you see,it's human nature.
# 19
kingdavid
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kingdavid
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05/14/2004 4:10 pm
Originally Posted by: Hammurabi...who really cares about those supposed WMDs...

:D
Tsk!Tsk!
*David shakes his head and moves on to another interesting thread*
Even you guys who were for the war must be laughing with me,right?
And whoever sees that Ann Crawford woman,remind her that all but one or two of the hijckers were Saudis,not Iraqis.
And once you confirm I'm correct,also remind her that there wasn't and there's yet to be a link between Saddam,and 9/11
This is war,huh?
God help us all.
# 20

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