While the 'civilized world' looked elsewhere...

Originally posted by Lordathestrings

Originally posted by Number of the Beast
...can we bash protesters again?

I think Raskolnikov made the most eloquent possible statement along that line, back on the first page. Unfortunately, the second picture, (showing an adult and a baby Kurd huddled in death after one of Saddam Hussein's poison gas attacks), doesn't show up any more.

yeah...well, at least that cute chick still shows up.

Yo

Originally posted by PonyOne
Well, if the Arab world were currently in the same industrial/commercial/political situation as the west, do you think they'd be so pious they'd do things any different? Probably not...

The answer to this wether yes or no will be Hypothetical , that doesn't count.

I can understand now how did they come up with the "preemtive strikes" idea in the whitehouse. :rolleyes:

And in regards to intra-Arab Peninsula combat... what about the wars where one Arab nation attacked another? Oh, that's different, right?

Sure that's very different ... Should I mention the civil war in the U.S. , wars between France & England , England & U.S. , etc. ?
Also put in mind that the biggest & the most brutal 2 wars in history were a direct result from western civilizations clashing into each other !!

Should I mention centuries of western (europian) occupation to most of the world ? Do you know that every single nation in the middle east suffered from the brutality of western occupation?
I can give you examples for that more than you can count.

And fortunately most nations around Israel have learned their lesson and knocked it the hell off... I hope that Hizbollah takes some cues from Egypt and Saudi Arabia soon before they get themselves into a whole heap of trouble... look where fighting has gotten the Palestinans.

First off , palestinians are where they are now because of the establishment of Israel on a division of their lands , then Israel occupying the rest of it along with parts from egypt,syria,lebanon & jordan in '67 , turning most Palestinians into refugees till this very day !!!

In the '67 war , was Israel attacked first?
No , they basicaly launched this war to expand their country based on some couple of thousands years old religious doctrine that says their methological counrty's border should be from Egypt in the west to Iraq in the East .

Also Israel has shown hostility to Egypt and their intentions to expand in '56 , by taking part in the British/French lead war to take over the Suez Canal and Sinai peninsula for Israel (to get closer to the mythological border) !


Now I hope that Israel and the Jewish communities everywhere :
- learns that it's impossible to occupy all of these territories without having to kill everything in the area .
- give palestenians and syrians back their lands (according to the UN resolution that lead into the establishment of Israel) .
- try to achieve peace & satisfaction on that small piece of land the British Illeagally gave to them after the end of their occupation to arabian lands.
- Deep Religion , and trying to apply our mythologies and crap on each other will only leads into .... NOWHERE !

Originally posted by SLY
... In the '67 war , was Israel attacked first?
No , they basicaly launched this war to expand their country based on some couple of thousands years old religious doctrine that says their methological counrty's border should be from Egypt in the west to Iraq in the East ....

Uh, you may want to take some time to research that one...

Originally posted by Lordathestrings

Originally posted by SLY
... In the '67 war , was Israel attacked first?
No , they basicaly launched this war to expand their country based on some couple of thousands years old religious doctrine that says their methological counrty's border should be from Egypt in the west to Iraq in the East ....

Uh, you may want to take some time to research that one...

Yeah...SLY you're clearly getting, as our pres. (whom I love) would say, "misleading information."

Yeah, Israel was surprise-attacked on that one, as far as my information goes.

~Incidents

No dudes , Israel was surprise-attacked only once , in '73 , and it was gonna be a total defeat if it weren't for the U.S. (according to Kessinger himself !).

In '67 , the only agressive action against Israel was banning their ships from sailing in the red sea due to some tensions , and that was TWO months before the war.

Give me a break , surpris-attacked by 5 countries from all directions , defeat them all and invade multiples of Israel's land at the time in SIX days .... WOW , even God can't do that , even if the enemy fought with bare hands !! :rolleyes:

Your problem is that you guys only get info from your local media , which usualy tells one side of the story , that's why you can't see the whole picture .

Fortunately , in the last few years , big western media channels (namely CNN & BBC) are becoming more fair when covering middle-east events ... So hopefully , we may reach perfect balance in media a decade from now.

I believe we gave them the ****in bomb, right?

Israel has the 2nd strongest army on earth, that doesn't suprise me whatsoever.

~Incidents

I happen to agree with PonyOne on this one; I did some research on the '67 war (which happened twenty years before i was even born), and Israel attacking the Arabs has much much more justification than our attacking Iraq.

Personally, I think we should have not gone after Iraq; I think we should have gone after North Korea instead. You know why we didn't? Follow the path of least resistance. We would have had to drop some mega ****in' bombs on North Korea, to kill that Million Man Army; Nuclear, maybe. But now, North Korea will be declared a Nuclear Power, and we can't do **** against them. Great Job, Bush.

~Incidents

Originally posted by PonyOne
Technically speaking, yes, Israel fired the first shot.

Cool , that's what I wanted to hear !

But in reality, i dunno, something about a massive troop buildup on the borders for 3 months

So that makes it legal for Pakistan to takeover India (if they could do it) or vice versa , yeah ?

The Palestinians messed it up for themselves, or at leas their leaders did. And they keep messing it up for themselves! They bomb an articulated bus filled with children coming back from the West Wall, and they don't see that it's so bad... then they fire a missile that blows up a car driven by the guy who organized that and a dozen other murders and they scream injustice. I hope that someday the Palestinians can look at their actions of the people they let lead them in the correct context, and see how their actions got them there.

First , I want to state that I never agreed with the idea of suicide bombing , or military actions against civilians by all means .
But , in the palestinian case , what they do is the RE-action not the action ... And the action was Israel destroying their homes , killing civilians (their families) , turning the rest into refugees (accepting only a few of them as citizens , not to affect the demography of Israel ... Racism ?).

And when Israel blow a car driven by some Hamas member or so , it's usualy a political leader ... Are you saying that it's ok to blow enemy's political or military leaders ? Cool , then the palestinians should know too that it's ok to blow Sharone's butt , along with his fellow military leaders.

And I know you harp on us getting poor media attention...

It wasn't directed at you man . :)

I don't think Israel is the infallible state many people seem to think, but I also know that there is a good portion of the Arab world who hears about a guy running into a cafe and shooting a bunch of Jewish college students is an act of "protest," and shooting that same guy is a "murder."

Don't try to make us look that bad , I don't even know how do they justify to themselves killing civilians or suicide bombing , but it's usualy a poor guy who's big brother was killed by the military for no reason , or his father has been in jail before he was born and just trying to have revenge in a similar way ... I'm not trying to jusitfy this either , but I think of suicide bombers as mentaly ill persons ,because of what Israel did to them and/or their families .

What a portion of the arab world may take as a heroic action , act of protest , occupation resistance , or whatever is actions against Israel military , like Hezbollah ... I don't know on what basis do they blame them for terrorism , cuz it's military actions against military targets .

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
I believe we gave them the ****in bomb, right?

Israel has the 2nd strongest army on earth, that doesn't suprise me whatsoever.

2nd strongest ??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :confused:

Where did you get this from dude ? As I recall, they only spend like 8 billions on the millitary annualy ... I think I can name 10 different countries with military budgets that are multiples of that.


Also, why then were they surprised to death in '73 when they were attacked by a bunch of Megs ?
It was going in one direction, till the U.S. military aids arrived ... I heard that U.S. soldiers fought in this war too , and that Israel wanted to use nukes , but fortunately :rolleyes: the U.S. didn't allow them.

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
I believe we gave them the ****in bomb, right?

No.

But it's highly likely that they stole the technology and fissable materials from us.

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
Personally, I think we should have not gone after Iraq; I think we should have gone after North Korea instead. You know why we didn't? Follow the path of least resistance. We would have had to drop some mega ****in' bombs on North Korea, to kill that Million Man Army; Nuclear, maybe. But now, North Korea will be declared a Nuclear Power, and we can't do **** against them. Great Job, Bush.

First off, there are currently no treaties or UN resolutions that say "if North Korea develops nuclear weapons, they get invaded." Therefore no matter how flaky the legal case for invading Iraq may have been, it was infinately more legal than invading North Korea (so long as North Korea did not attempt to invade another country).

Next, no matter how brash North Korea's rhetoric may be, they're only interested in self preservation. They do this every few years to get assurances that they will not be overthrown and/or get some food too because their population is starving. This current "crisis" is really nothing new.

The biggest thing though is that China, South Korea, Russia, and Japan all are united with us, and China has been doing some very intense arm twisting. North Korea really can be delt with diplomaticly because it's government's goals are totally different than Saddam Hussein's.

[Edited by Raskolnikov on 09-01-2003 at 03:55 PM]

Military Budget doesn't mean "Better Army". You yourself even said about the '67 six-day war, that not even god could have done that. Face it, the Israeli Army kicks ass.

I had heard that in 1975, we gave them one nuclear Bomb to use as intimidation for any nation that wants to invade, which would be a reason why no nation has invaded Israel since '73 (to my knowledge). I thought that Kissinger or somebody important like that had suggested it, and we actually did that. Hm......

In no way are the Palestinians right and the Israeli's wrong. If the Israeli's are wrong, then everyone's wrong.
The Palestinians aren't doing any justice by blowing up bus-loads of people, and until that is realized, there will be no progress. You can say

"That's just because they are killing our militants...."- Yeah and these militants/leaders were behind the attacks of _____(insert whatever one) suicide bombing.

The Israeli's, for the most part, seem to be going after the leaders of these suicide attacks. The Palestinians seem to be doing suicide attacks because they knew a person that died because of the killing of a militant. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

~Incidents

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
Military Budget doesn't mean "Better Army". You yourself even said about the '67 six-day war, that not even god could have done that. Face it, the Israeli Army kicks ass

When I said even god couldn't have done that , I was refering to someone who was surprise-attacked by 5 countries in different directions , to prove my point that this war was previously & intentionaly very well planned by Israel.


If they realy kicked that much ass , why couldn't they survive without the U.S. only 6 years later ... They were mostly attacked by one country (Egypt) only.

Originally posted by PonyOne
Most of the nations in the middle east don't like Israel that much.

True ,but did you even bother to ask "why" ?

Why aren't they trying to attack them? Could have something to do with the fact that they'll get the snot blasted out of them again.

Yeah sure , everybody learned since '73 that fighting Israel = fighting U.S. !

In regards to India/Pakistan, if one nation started screaming "we're gonna kill you tomorrow!!" and preparing for an assault, so a few hours later the other party waged a preemptive strike, and the side that was the aggressor lost some land... yeah, that's just.

So you're saying that mouth agression is the same as millitary agression ?!
I always thought that the agressor is the guy who fires the first bullet. :confused:

The only reason things are as bad as they are for the Palestinians is their own actions, and the actions of the Arab world's leaders. Israel is defending itself.

Palestine , like most arab nations in the first half of the 20th century , was a poor British-occupied nation ... It was all very calm and peace till the British decided to giveaway a division of their land (which later turned out to be all of their land) to establish Israel , and so , most of the turned into refugees wether they still live there or immigrated to some other place.

On the other hand , Israeli's before going to Israel were just jewish people who were natives of different countries , also living in peace , facing small racial problems in some spots of the world ,and major problems from the Nazi's (which also ended before establishing Israel) ... Then they decided they should takeover Palestine to fulfill some religious myth , and of course no european country could say a word after all the suffering they caused to the jews.

All Israeli's got their homes where they came from , and Palestinians got their homes where they are and they got no where else to go !

So , who is defending himself ?

I think it's a tragedy, and I think that it's a tragedy that the Palestinians have to let their leaders put them through such hell.

Who's leaders put everybody through hell ?! Do you remember the early 90's , the days of Rabin & Arafat ? It seemed like the problem was realy getting to an end ... It all got messy again when some jewish extremist killed Rabin.
Now they put the blame for everything on Arafat , and it's funny that the U.S. supports these nonsense claims.
How could you blame a Nobel prize for peace winner (Arafat) for the current violence , while we have a war crime suspect (Sharone) on the other side ???!!!!

If the Israelis are really so evil then why don't the Palestinians just stop fighting, then if Israel is truly so evil and bullish there will be no more dispute as to who's to blame and the world will rally against Israel? Could be something to do with the fact that if they stop, then Israel will too, and it'll prove who was really at fault?

They did .... Many times !!!
Do you remember when Sharone called for a week of absolutely no violence , then he raised it to 3 weeks and so .... He had them all , but he always end it by blowing a refugee camp or something cuz he doesn't want the world to see the truth , and the violence starts all over again !

How about more recent facts, The Road Map Seize Fire ? Everybody agreed to that , including Hamas and everybody else ... Then Israel assasins one of their political leaders (his name was abo shanab , I think) , so Hamas declares the end of Seize Fire .
Who's fault was that ?!

Originally posted by SLY

Originally posted by PonyOne If the Israelis are really so evil then why don't the Palestinians just stop fighting, then if Israel is truly so evil and bullish there will be no more dispute as to who's to blame and the world will rally against Israel? Could be something to do with the fact that if they stop, then Israel will too, and it'll prove who was really at fault?

They did .... Many times !!!
...

How about more recent facts, The Road Map Seize Fire ? Everybody agreed to that , including Hamas and everybody else ... Then Israel assasins one of their political leaders (his name was abo shanab , I think) , so Hamas declares the end of Seize Fire .
Who's fault was that ?! [/B]

You're omitting the suicide bombing a day or so before the assassination.

Until the Palistinians start taking cues from Ghandi, they're not going to get anywhere.

Originally posted by Raskolnikov ...You're omitting the suicide bombing a day or so before the assassination...

What the world outside the Middle East sees is Palestinian madmen blowing themselves up in crowds of civilians, followed by the IDF selectively killing the 'leaders' who send these demented fools to their doom.

The deliberate targeting of civilians by suicide bombers completely wipes out any sympathy that might otherwise be earned for their plight. It's stupid. It turns potential friends away in horror.

Ghandi was able to win against the might of the British Empire by showing the world what evil things they were willing to do against unarmed, non-violent protesters. The consciences of the British people, and world opinion, freed the people of India.

The 'leaders' of the Palestinians have become accustomed to sending children out to attack Israeli tanks with stones. And the Israelis inside those tanks have become accustomed to replying with machine gun fire. If those kids were carrying signs instead of stones, the world would soon turn against the Israelis.

But that might involve a loss of power among those Palestinian leaders, and they won't allow that to happen.

SLY: i suggest you learn some history before you start talking about the 1973 war.
Israel was mainly attacked by 2 countries: syria and egypt and not only egypt as you said.
We won this war not because of the usa (even though they did help us), but because our regular army soilders were able to stop the syrian attack in the north for 3 days untill reinforcements arravided.
Stoping syrians in the north, allowed israel to move most of their troops to the south where egypt (which was surprised by its fast progress and success of its attacks)
stoped the attacks for a few days.

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
Until the Palistinians start taking cues from Ghandi, they're not going to get anywhere.

Possibly yes ... or may be the rest of the remains of their lands will turn into Israeli jewish settlements before delivering their message !