Now the Taliban will pay a price

hehehe... I though sending you an e-mail through hotmail (instead of out look express was a bad idea)...
Yep, my name is Ali.. I was born in Lybia, but i've lived in britian the vast majority of my life (before that, it was poland)... The reason i dont use my real name is because at a time of war like this where anyone from the arab/ eastern world is made to look like flag burning, hate obssesed manaic... So if i use a song title for my name I'm nothing more than an oppinion which poeple will think through, but if they see an arab name it's shrugged off, and isn' taken to be valid..
I have nothing against the average american (god knows.. when we had exchange students from Canton or where ever it was, I was trying to play the peace keeper, cos we had some kids in our school who took REAL offence at the idea of killing for fun, shooting deer etc ,or "harvesting" as the Cantonains called it), I dont like the government policies, and you only have to look at them in depth to see why... I've grown up with part muslim part western values...oh yeah and i speak read and write arabic well... So i can tell you for a fact (first hand) that what christoph has said is wrong...
you only have to look at christophs reply to see that there are alot of missinformed poeple who really want muslims dead....
I hope poeple will still look at the reasoning behind my thinking, instead of saying "oh he's an arab, he just wants to kill us"... I do tend to use alot of evidence in what i say, so my arguments (most of the time) are water tight...

I'm very moved by what you said... I hope there are more poeple like you...

I can quite honestly tell you, I really want peace at the minute, and that the government should take their time, instead of giving in to pressure from the public and bombing the first suspect... oh yeah... I'm an arab, and I dont think that isreal should be destroyed or pushed out to sea, as some poeple would suggest, i would like to see both sides mix, or separate... the end result bieng less deaths and the 2nd class citizens get their rights...

I'm quite well studied in the siences (cos hopefully i'm gonna go to med school to be a doctor), and i can tell you I'm not scared by the whole anthrax thing, you just need some basic knowledge in bacteria to know that it's nowhere near as dangerous as the media wants to make it out to be...

The thing that brings us all together is the fact we're all guitarist, I hope race or idoligy doesn't drive us apart...

Originally posted by educatedfilm
hehehe... I though sending you an e-mail through hotmail (instead of out look express was a bad idea)...
Yep, my name is Ali.. I was born in Lybia, but i've lived in britian the vast majority of my life (before that, it was poland)... The reason i dont use my real name is because at a time of war like this where anyone from the arab/ eastern world is made to look like flag burning, hate obssesed manaic... So if i use a song title for my name I'm nothing more than an oppinion which poeple will think through, but if they see an arab name it's shrugged off, and isn' taken to be valid..
I have nothing against the average american (god knows.. when we had exchange students from Canton or where ever it was, I was trying to play the peace keeper, cos we had some kids in our school who took REAL offence at the idea of killing for fun, shooting deer etc ,or "harvesting" as the Cantonains called it), I dont like the government policies, and you only have to look at them in depth to see why... I've grown up with part muslim part western values...oh yeah and i speak read and write arabic well... So i can tell you for a fact (first hand) that what christoph has said is wrong...
you only have to look at christophs reply to see that there are alot of missinformed poeple who really want muslims dead....
I hope poeple will still look at the reasoning behind my thinking, instead of saying "oh he's an arab, he just wants to kill us"... I do tend to use alot of evidence in what i say, so my arguments (most of the time) are water tight...

I'm very moved by what you said... I hope there are more poeple like you...

I can quite honestly tell you, I really want peace at the minute, and that the government should take their time, instead of giving in to pressure from the public and bombing the first suspect... oh yeah... I'm an arab, and I dont think that isreal should be destroyed or pushed out to sea, as some poeple would suggest, i would like to see both sides mix, or separate... the end result bieng less deaths and the 2nd class citizens get their rights...

I'm quite well studied in the siences (cos hopefully i'm gonna go to med school to be a doctor), and i can tell you I'm not scared by the whole anthrax thing, you just need some basic knowledge in bacteria to know that it's nowhere near as dangerous as the media wants to make it out to be...

The thing that brings us all together is the fact we're all guitarist, I hope race or idoligy doesn't drive us apart...

Ali
You have my full support of being a great guy,
plus a great human being for opening up like you did.
I know you did'nt have too but .Thanks again Man!
Really i welcome any Arab on here i think its great plus,
Guitar-tricks is supposed to have guitarest's from all,
over the world which is great.
Thats one reason why i like guitar-tricks.
You can share your views plus talk guitar with the peoples,
of all countrys and thats the way it should be.
As far as hateing any body in any race where they be,
German,or Arabs ect ect i do not hate any race of people,
in the world.We have bad people and good people.
I don't like the bad people and we have alot of bad,
people in all race's including America.
And you can take this to the bank, race or idoligy will,
never drive us apart.
You are right about the media they always take any,
little thing they can get and make it into a big big thing,
then all the simple minded American's belive the sky,
is falling.They alwasy end up scareing all the older,
Americans also i think its just so they can have,
the top rateings plus make a Dollar more than the,
other networks.Really nobody should ever belive,
everything they hear or see on the news.(I don'nt)
Sadam husain was right when he said we American's,
will be fighting our selfs,by fighting Ben L <-
Because we trained him and taught him.(I agree)
And yes Ben L<-Forgot how to spell it)could be a,
a scape goat.(My Opinion)
I do'nt belive in killing any Animal thats just the,
way i was rasied.As far as killing for sport i do not,
belive in killing Deer,or any animals .
And Charlton Heston can kiss my ass.(NRA Boooo My Opinion) .
Also i do not belive in killing Innocent People plus,
Children of any Country War or no War.(My Opinion).
Also i think we went into Afgan to quick and should,
have had the support of the UN.(Plus more Proof my opinion).
To me i think Old-man Bush should have fought Sadam,
Husain his self.
And his Son should have buckled his six shooters on and,
went after Ben L.(My Opinion)
Really all joking aside i have alwasy liked the song Ahab the Arab and still do.
Well by the old clock on the wall it looks like i'm,
going to have to jump on old Clyde and go do a gig,
tonite.
So hope you have a peaceable nite and God be with you.
Talk later Bro.
P:S Tell your brother i'm going to try to play that,
game he like's plus Diable-2 is getting boring.

Your Friend Mark

I myself am one gun toting hillbilly that has no use for the NRA. I don't need a fanatical face slapped on my veiws.

Originally posted by MorseRulez
lets just divorce ourselves from the "spouses" who hate us.

I wish it were that easy.



Mr. Ebrahim, I don't hate Arabs or want all Muslims dead. You've totally misconstrued everything I've said. I have Arab friends, ya know.



On a side note, lemme just say that it's been really cool sharing ideas and getting to know you guys through this message board, even if it does get a little out of hand from time to time.

Peace out.

[Edited by Christoph on 10-28-2001 at 01:28 AM]

Oh, this is the bit where the post gets all warm and cuddly...
So, to destroy the atmosphere, I will say this.
All (insert name of country/race/family name of the neighbour who uses water to clean his driveway rather than just fricken sweeping the damn thing, water is precious!) should be rounded up and shown repeat episodes of Everybody loves Raymond, until they change their ways!

...I'm surprised at this.... Yov're really thought this through Skee1... I 'm quite touched that someone has put effort into replying... I've found being honest is the best policy... Cos the truth catches up with you...
Christoph: phew... I'm glad you dont want me dead :D heheheh....
I dont like Bed linnen (ben laden... spelling doesn't really matter it's written phonetically from arabic) or Suddam, but I don't like it when they become excuses for the death of innocent poeple....

I do feel a little a shamed that i couldn't just be open about the fact that i'm an arab... still, you know now.. Hope this doesn't change me in your oppinion...
Don't worry about "outing" me Skee1 (mark)...
You'll love baulder's gate.... takes some patients though...
:) :) :)

Good have to have you back ed!

Now you guys can get back to the debates then i can learn,
something by reading them...............

I'm playing my game i just finished putting video plus,
a sound file on my page so i'm done for the day .

(Game time)

cya guys
Mark the Camel

.. now that we're all squared away on who we are, and we're all happy with that, I'd like to get some opinions on this...

Earlier on in this thread, someone raised an issue that I think should have been given a lot closer examination.

1) A lot of the people who rant, rave, and burn flags, are acting on what they've been told by authority figures. Such people are vulnerable to manipulation, because they can't examine the facts for themselves, either because they can't read, and/or societal conditioning forbids it.

2) If you were to ask a Shia muslim "Who reveals the will of Allah to you?", the reply would probably indicate a mullah does so. If you asked the same queston of a Sunni muslim, I think the reply would be something to the effect that each of the faithful must listen to their heart, so that they might hear for themselves what Allah choses to reveal. It would be major self-agrandisement, maybe even an insult to The Divine One, to presume to tell anyone what the Will of Allah is.

3) The Gutenburg Bible marked a major turning point in the course of Christianity. Previously, the only copies of the Bible were laboriously hand-copied, in Latin, by monks who dedicated their lives to this task, in service of God. With the invention of the printing press, suddenly copies of the Bible became widely available, in the language of the people. The Bible was used as a textbook to teach people to read. No longer was the Bible the exclusive property of the clergy! People could now read the texts for themselves, and draw their own conclusions as to what it meant. This led to the split of Christendom into those who accepted the word of the clergy as the revealed Word of God, and those who believed that God is revealed to each individual in their own way. It would be major self-agrandisement, maybe even an insult to The Almighty, to presume to tell anyone what the Will of God is.

(...pull the pin...casually toss grenade over shoulder while strolling out of the room...)

So... are the Shia and the Roman Catholics labouring under severe delusion? Are the Sunni and the Protestants only different in the name they give to their Divinity?

Discuss among yourselves.

Heres a thought for all of you people that think you understand religion...what would you say to someone who said that the roman catholic religion and christianity were different religions and that all the catholics were following the pope to hell? Because there are people who think like that and even believe that the pope is the antichrist on the belief that anti- means "in replacement of what is true" as it does mean in some languages. (Ever hear of antipasto?...Yeah, like that). So what would you say to someone who laughs at the hypocracy of a people who confess their sins to fellow man yet fail to produce an excuse or apology for the crusades and inquisition? Or someone who can prove that much of the catholic religion and tradition is directly passed down from babalon? What would you say?

...that the world situation recently became an acute (crisis) version of misunderstandings that have been simmering for many, many generations.

If we, (I mean all of us), are going to resolve the conflict in any meaningful, lasting way, we will have to take a close look at the basis for a lot of the things we have taken as self-evident Truth. If we want to learn, we gotta put it all on the table, and risk releasing bad smells as we poke around in it.

More directly to your post, blackrose, the English laguage didn't get where it is by being pure. Its an almalgamation of Angleish, Frankish, Saxon, Latin, Greek, and bits of any other language that English-speakers have ever encountered in their travels.

Christianity has developed in similar ways. Many of the Holy days, including Christmas itself, are celebrated on days that were part of the Pagan calendar of, shall we say, 'special events'. I don't think that indicates falsehood on the part of those who designated when Christian celebrations should occur. It probably came down to pragmatic decisions based on trying to make it easier for new converts to remember the dates. The important thing was that the celebrations should occur, and that the participants should understand the meanings attached to the rituals. I suspect a lot of the trouble we face today stems from obsessive preservation of the rituals, at the cost of losing a clear understanding of the meanings.

I'd be very intersted to hear from our Muslim members if the division of Islam into sects like the Sunni and Shia (sp?) came about as a result of the availability of the Qu'ran to 'the masses'. I'd like to know if that parallels the Catholic/Protestant split in Christianity.

I was deliberately provacative in my last post... no apologies offered or asked for. We are in what the Chinese refer to as 'interesting times'. It might be useful for us to adopt some of their perspective on the passage of time. After all, they consider the American Revolution to be an ongoing experiment that may yet provide some useful information. They also seem to think that the French show some promise in the culinary arts. :rolleyes: In time, perhaps.

So, yeah, jump on in and mix it up. We are musicians. We are direct descendants of a proud Minstrel heritage. Ours used to be the segment of the population that was looked to for the latest news, interpretations of current events, and ways by which to express the hopes, fears, and spiritual complexity that is humankind. (And you guys thought you were just jammin' :D )

This thread [u]does[/u] belong here. We should thank Joseph for starting us on this path. In this age of worldwide communication, we have oportunities to debate issues from a huge diversity of points of view. Dream BIG. This Forum, and others like it, may well be our best hope for a world peace that is decided by 'common' ground-level people, not just politicians and professional warriors.



[Edited by Lordathestrings on 10-29-2001 at 03:14 PM]

um.... I don't know where to start...
If you look carefully you'll relise religion is a factor, and not really a cause... Poverty and political oppresion are also other factors, and the media also plays a huge role...
I'm a Sunni (pronouned Soon-knee, not sun-ny), and the big difference between the bile /tora and the koran is that the koran is MEMORISED... a muslim who knows the whole koran off by heart is not a rare or unsual occurance... At difficult time you can turn to religion, and the koran gives very clear instructions, but how certain poeple choose to interpret them is a very different matter... Also you can turn to good ol' logic... I dont really want to go into religion as it's all far too oppionated... but there's still not as big a difference between Sunni and Shia as there is between catholic/ prodestant...
Oh yeah, Islam does not forbid music, and there is nothing to say this, It's just certain groups feel the "message" carried by this media is not suitable...
If you thought there were similarities between prodestants and Sunnis, have a look at the MASSIVE parralels between judiasim and islam... Hebrew and arabic are paractically sister langauges... I was really surprised...

I think geogrophy plays a huge role here. The land does a wonderful job of separating human populations and bending us to fit it's challenges.

Think of range wars here folks: One is apt to think that they're as entitled to a spring as the man who's land it happens to be on.

It's also harder to sympathise with somebody the other side of the ocean; we all have our problems afterall, and damnit, the kids are gonna miss the bus! Where are my keys?

People create all kinds of stresses and we like to blame them on other people.

I see your point, Raskolnikov, but I think your focus is off a bit. I don't for a minute believe that six people were trained and prepared for the suicide attacks on 11 September, {side note: only [u]six[/u] of the 19 identified terrorists left some form of 'goodbye'. Its reasonable to conclude that the rest were duped into thinking they were participating in a 'normal' hijacking!}, by the massive network the task required, over some percieved lack of sympathy.

This is a serious 'grudge match', and the players aren't people whose major stressors are lost keys, or kids missing the bus. There are grievances at issue here that run deep, and formed over a period of decades.

I would expect two cultures that can be traced more or less continuously, back to Mesopotamia, to share a lot of linguistic links. Both cultures seem to have sucessfully resisted 'contamination' by Roman influence, for instance. This demonstrates a very strong sense of identity, something sorely lacking in Western cultures.

Our entire modern technological list of achievemnts can be traced back to Arab mathematicians. Without the introduction of such concepts as assigning orders of magnitude to numerical position, and using '0' as a place-holder, we'd still be using knotted strings to count our livestock.

A strange irony is that a sick, twisted, genius like Saddam Hussein now rules in what history tells us was "The Cradle of Civilisation".

I digress...frequently...

hmmmmm.... Your pretty much right about the arabs and jews having same ancestory...
What i'm worried about at the minute is that the "evidence" hasn't been released to the public, that includes things like Black boxes where there is no threat to the sources, and the fact that there was a letter and a passport found which were clearly plants... I really want to know who did it, but i fear that it will get covered up as the FBI dont want to look like morons....

The FBI is a strange, idiot/savant organisation, populated by character types ranging from 'quirky genius' to 'cover-your-ass' bureaucrats. It is wise to approach their press releases with a certain amount of scepticism.

I have regular contact with people who work in the testing and regulatory aspects of the civilian and military aviation industry. Without being told as much by anyone, I feel pretty sure in stating that there are legitimate reasons for not publicly releasing the contents of the Flight Data Recorder, and the ****pit Voice Recorder that were recovered from the Pentagon crash site.

Both uniits were severely damaged in the crash, and the subsequent fire. The scraps of information that can be retrieved from them really wouldn't serve any purpose for the general public. The recorders from the fourth aircraft (that crashed in the field), are still being analysed. Bits of information have been released, like a brief summary of the coercion being applied to the pilots just before the flight changed course.

Again, other than satisfying a certain morbid curiosity, there is no purpose to be served by playing the tapes on prime-time TV. This stuff carries an extremely heavy emotional loading. I really don't think we want to see the kind of 'foaming-at-the-mouth' screams for immediate vengeance that would result. There is a lot of anger. Without a specific place to focus that energy, the results could be as destructive as the damage already inflicted.

This is not the usual cops-and-robbers stuff. This is an international head-game where psychological warfare is at least as important as military action. The Americans risk erosion of public support by not being entirely open, but they have been making their case to various world leaders as they are approached for support. Its a judgement call, and a lot of the information that goes into the decision-making is only available on a need-to-know basis.

Some bits of the puzzle for you to ponder:

-The attacks of 11 September required many years of planning, training, and financial preparation. Such activities leave 'footprints', however faint they may be.

-A large number of people were, and are, involved. Most of these are still active. These are dedicated, motivated, people with considerable skill and ability.

-They live, and work, among us.

-The members of these interconnected networks view themselves as soldiers. They are at war. Some of them have been active since the planning of the overthrow of the Shah of Iran, and the destruction of the corrupt Pelavi family.

-Publicly proclaiming the discovery of each new piece of evidence serves to warn the subjects of any investigation, and makes further dicovery more difficult.

-None of this will be resolved in time for the weekend. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by PonyOne


Regardless of whether or not this was done by Arabs or Muslims, we m ay very well know now or in the future, but I doubt that everyone will be satisfied with the answer.
One of my close friends is a Sunni from Egypt, and though he says "if it was an Arab who plotted these attacks, if Bin Laden was behind it, then kill him," he, like many other Arabs, will probably never be satisfied with the possibility of a muslim doing it. He was visiting his family in Egypt when the attacks happened and said that people were horrified, at least in Alexandria, where he is from, and that the media there was saying it was Israel's doing.

sometimes its very funny to discover that some muslims cant even imagine that another muslim is a terrorist
like they never heard about people like hizballah and others.
Anyway i think we are getting closer to our (israel's) final war, i dont know how to explain it but there is a war feeling everywhere, but hopefuly we will survive it somehow, although the usa is not supporting us that much anymore

Isreal at the minute is a source of worry to me at the minute... You'd think that the US government would take this as chance to drop cash and weapons into isreal and give a licence to kill... but that's not happened, Infact there seems to be a "we need arabs for oil... What do we need isreal for?" mentality at the minute, and i can pretty much garantee that as soon as congress steps out from behind bush, they'll lynch him, or brand him an anti-semite (which is as good as)... What they do after that is extremely worrying...
Pony one, yep... I pretty much agree with what you've said, but i think you do need to relize that one arab freind doesn't really represent all of 'em... I mean I believe it was either a so called muslim, some Japanees guys, or some cult members...The media there is as skewed as it is here, except here you've had it repeated again and again and again, but you only hear the forign media once or twice... I think what the egyptain media is saying is what a lot of popele on the net are saying is that it was a bit suspicious that 400 jews (or whatever it was) didn't turn upto work, and that somebody rang up the Israelis and give a warning 2 hours before hand, and as far as i know both are true but they dont really mean anything....
For the record. I'm five foot Seven with black hair....heheheh

Originally posted by educatedfilm
Isreal at the minute is a source of worry to me at the minute... You'd think that the US government would take this as chance to drop cash and weapons into isreal and give a licence to kill... but that's not happened, Infact there seems to be a "we need arabs for oil... What do we need isreal for?" mentality at the minute, and i can pretty much garantee that as soon as congress steps out from behind bush, they'll lynch him, or brand him an anti-semite (which is as good as)... What they do after that is extremely worrying...
Pony one, yep... I pretty much agree with what you've said, but i think you do need to relize that one arab freind doesn't really represent all of 'em... I mean I believe it was either a so called muslim, some Japanees guys, or some cult members...The media there is as skewed as it is here, except here you've had it repeated again and again and again, but you only hear the forign media once or twice... I think what the egyptain media is saying is what a lot of popele on the net are saying is that it was a bit suspicious that 400 jews (or whatever it was) didn't turn upto work, and that somebody rang up the Israelis and give a warning 2 hours before hand, and as far as i know both are true but they dont really mean anything....
For the record. I'm five foot Seven with black hair....heheheh

ED
We know for a fact here in American that 90% of all the,
Arabs hate America.
Thats why were against all Arab Countrys.(Leader's)
And thats why were going after BEN Boy plus all the ,
Talaban.
The Talaban are useing thier fellow Agans as Sheilds to,
hide thier tanks and thier self behind thier people,
so they can yell about killing thier people to stir up,
the rest of the arab countrys so they will help them,
fight us.Because they know for a fact that we are to,
powerful and we will destroy them the talaban.
Where is the oil i did'nt know they had any IN AFGAN?
All they got is (DOPE TO SELL IN AMERICA and we will,
crush that too.
I have no worry about israel getting help from us.
America will alwasy take up for Israel.
Were do you think israel's modern Weapon's came from,
They came from America.
85% of Americans would like Saudie Arabia to go down.
your right the only thing thats stoping America in,
taking them out is OIL.(for now)
But if they keep on burning flags and celabrating in thier,
street's about the twin towers.Oil or no oil i know,
from history we will take them out then take thier oil,
from them then send them out on Camel's.
Like when we give the indians some beads then stole ,
thier land.Another thing israel's leader's are big boys,
now thier not little kids they can handle thier self.
Plus we will help them if they can't we alwasy have.
Israel needs to just hang in there a while right,
now because America has to take care of the arab's in,
Afgan plus get Ben on the run so we can kill his ass,plus the talaban leader's.Then go after Saudam husain,
plus,and who ever else wants a peice,
of us.Another thing thing the Talaban don't fight like,
an Army because they don't have an army they fight like,
street gangs they hide behind house's and in allys ,
plus hide behind women and children in the dark and fight like the cowards they are.
And another thing the holy month is not going to mean,
sh## to America we will not stop bombing just for a,
Arab holy month or what ever it is.........ect
There was a survey taken and the American people do not want the bombing to stop for some holy day or what ever it is we don't care about this is WAR!
Mark




[Edited by skee1 on 10-30-2001 at 07:29 PM]

skee1, i'm applauding! you rule!