Now the Taliban will pay a price

Originally posted by Joseph
What most people don't realize, or want to admit is that for years in foreign countries, people have been planning an attack on America, and it's never going to stop if we continue to look away.

-Joseph

Nor will the reasons why.

The why. question is more important. How many of you knew that the Saudi governemt is protected by the US from it's own poeple?!! This is officail, it's not ambigous, or just some hinting by a little known about politian, If the Royal family are over thrown, they'de be put back in power... Why do you think oil is so cheap? Why do you think they've allowed the us military to build military bases there? This is one of the reason that made Bin Laden come about, and the very anti-american feeling in Saudi Arabia... The saudi governments is not the nicest of governments...
What makes you think think this attack is some how one of many? It could be a one off... Saddam Husain made threats during the gulf war, and nothing happened, Bin Laden is threatning more plane hijackings, but he's never said he was responsible for the first ones (which is a point which is missed). This is just fighting talk...
I really hope that poeple see that there is no smoke with out a fire, and that the forign policies improve, from Mexico's Land for the poor isues to The Arms to Tiwain (to keep it's sweat shops protected from China, and keep them firmly in the hands of Nike and co)...

Oh yeah... i've just realized i'm the new moderator... so that's the last contraversail statement you'll hear out of me...

Jon Broderick's tactics become clear then... give moderator positions to people making anoise, so that they have to stop being so opinionated, very devious. Just kidding, I'm sure you'll be fine, and I'm sure it's not what he had in mind.

...being a Moderator doesn't preclude civil discourse.

In plainer words, you are free to express your opinions, and to argue in their defence. The difference is that you are expected to refrain from abusive language, and you have a responsibility to hold others to the same rules.

I would feel deprived if either you or Cristoph were silenced.

Oh i'll still jump in time to time, but i think it i'd be hypocrtical if i edit posts that upset poeple when my oppinions do the same... I'm just being more "careful"
Lordathestrings: Thanks! I didn't think anyone was intrested in hearing what i had to say (didn't stop me from talking though :D)...
( Bardsley : nice idea :)... i think i'd probably be saying the same if i was you...)

message boards like these are no fun if nobody ever says anything controversial.

Point taken! (it's all Blackrose's fault!)

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
I would feel deprived if either you or Cristoph were silenced.

I guess that was sarcasm. LOL.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
How many of you knew that the Saudi governemt is protected by the US from it's own poeple?!!

Of course we knew that. The bottom line is that for the time being we need their oil, and we can't have a bunch of maniacs running around threatening that interest. If the Saudi government was overthrown we'd all have major problems, (Even you, educatedfilm. You wouldn't have a lot of the comforts you have now) so in this case we overlook the atrocities of the Saudis in favor of the greater good. The almighty dollar and the bottom line are the rulers here, and if a few innocents suffer, then it's just too bad. As the great Captain Spock once said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Or if you prefer to look at it from a Machiavellian perspective, the powerful have rights over the weak.

A lot of people like to complain about US foreign policy, but what you don't realize is that the alternatives are a lot worse. Yes, we supported Saddam Hussien in the past, during the war with Iran. At the time, Iran was many times worse and far more threatening to the stability of the region than Iraq, so we chose to support him and provide him with weapons. The general aim of US foriegn policy over the years has been to protect US interests and promote regional stability. Generally, for the common good.

Now you can either accept that the world is an imperfect place and that sometimes these plans will backfire, or you can stand around looking at pretty pictures and talk about how the world should be.

How's that for controversial, Backrose?

..that wasn't sarcasm. Open debate, expressing widely diverse opinions is what keeps us human.

The first good result of this disaster is the way people suddenly were able to discard petty differences, and pull together.

Another one may be the end of such hypocrises as 'Political Correctness'. We might even get people to see how dangerously delusional the 'social engineering' touted by the left really is. I dunno; I live in Canada...That may be too much to hope for.

Lordathestrings, I agree with you about people coming together. That's one of the good things that's come out of this so far.

I think we have already seen just how dangerous the so-called liberal social conditioning can be. It's now represented by the 7000 or so dead people that we have in New York. It was twenty years of being politically correct and worrying about 'offending' certain people and countries that led up to Sept 11.

Of course there's hope for Canada. There's hope for anywhere that has people who are willing to stand up and use reason to figure things out instead of their feelings. (oh, just think of the children!!!)



I get a kick out of that ridiculous TV show "Politically Incorrect". That show has to be the most poiltically correct things out there.

Christoph: hmmmm.... I think what you've described about american intrests has a name...imperialism.. The fanatics and radicals wouldn't exsist if it weren't for protecting the royal family... I think we can afford to pay a fair price for oil (the present price of oil means that's it's cheaper than spring water!!!!)... The whole thing isn't americas fault, I mean god knows that the Brits/ French and the italians were responsible for drawing "lines in the sand" (look at the borders of the arab countries, they all have straight borders in the middle of the dessert), and giving each country a differnt ruling system which meant that they couldn't unite again (just so you know that I dont blame everything on american foriegn policy, I mean god knows we did more than our fair share of wrongs...).
With this behaviour, you have to relize that when poeple retaliate it's not unprovoked... I relize we'll never live in an ideal world, but there is no harm in being more sensitive, and follow international law as opposed to the law of the jungle...

About that program "politically incorect", did the sponsers threatent to pull out when one of the guests said that the pilots were cowards, and the host guy said something like "hold on!... We fire missiles from 1000 miles away, but someone who stays on the plane till it hits is a coward?... you can call them anythig else, but not cowards" (that's not an quote, It's just roughly what he said)?

Originally posted by Christoph

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
I would feel deprived if either you or Cristoph were silenced.

I guess that was sarcasm. LOL.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
How many of you knew that the Saudi governemt is protected by the US from it's own poeple?!!

Of course we knew that. The bottom line is that for the time being we need their oil, and we can't have a bunch of maniacs running around threatening that interest. If the Saudi government was overthrown we'd all have major problems, (Even you, educatedfilm. You wouldn't have a lot of the comforts you have now) so in this case we overlook the atrocities of the Saudis in favor of the greater good. The almighty dollar and the bottom line are the rulers here, and if a few innocents suffer, then it's just too bad. As the great Captain Spock once said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Or if you prefer to look at it from a Machiavellian perspective, the powerful have rights over the weak.

A lot of people like to complain about US foreign policy, but what you don't realize is that the alternatives are a lot worse. Yes, we supported Saddam Hussien in the past, during the war with Iran. At the time, Iran was many times worse and far more threatening to the stability of the region than Iraq, so we chose to support him and provide him with weapons. The general aim of US foriegn policy over the years has been to protect US interests and promote regional stability. Generally, for the common good.

Now you can either accept that the world is an imperfect place and that sometimes these plans will backfire, or you can stand around looking at pretty pictures and talk about how the world should be.

How's that for controversial, Backrose?

not very. its just flat out the truth.

Hey, this is no fun if everyone agrees with each other!

Ed, get back in here!

Heres something I dount everyone will agree with me on...I think that the US is wrong in targeting Osama the way it is without substancial evidence, or really any at all. Anyways you got to admit Osama is crazy enough that he probably would admit to the attack had he done it just to piss Bush off.

I compared the Western Alliance (jeez, that sounds Orwellian!) to a lynch mob. Not becuase there is no evidence, but because there was no attempt to prove to the Taliban that the evidence was sufficient to warrant Osama's 'extradition'. That is what I meant by refering to having to "talk politely to scumbags" in order to take care of business.

The unhappy reality is, the Taliban would have shrugged it off as 'inconclusive', or something just as dismissive. I think the West in general, and the USA in particular, have finally learned something that Israel has known for a long time. You cannot deal reasonably with people whose hatred has made them unreasonable.

There is no point in trying to negotiate with people whose major goal in life, instilled in them from birth, [u]is to kill you, or die in the attempt.[/u]

Such people celebrate the hijackers as heroes, while we mourn the victims of their poison.

Originally posted by Lordathestrings


There is no point in trying to negotiate with people whose major goal in life, instilled in them from birth, [u]is to kill you, or die in the attempt.[/u]

I've talked about this subject all week until I was blue in the face, and my original color still hasn't come back yet. All I can say is that for anyone who seriously thinks that we have a chance in reasoning with these terrorists (despite how calm and rational bin Laden seemed in his pre-recorded coments), then you're far behind the eight ball. You can't reason with a serial killer, if you're family is ever kidnapped (God-forbid) you can't expect this cold blooded killer to compromise, or simply find common grounds.

Hate, this is a very strong word, but once someone lets in it into their system it's almost impossible to relinquish. These terrorists hate American's, and everything that our country stands for, and before they rape us of everything that we have, we must take action.


Like I said, I've been talking with types of people pertaining to this subject, because it's basically all that has been on our minds for weeks now. There is a large portion of people that I've come in contact with who merely have no comment on what's going on, (and hey I can't blame them) because for a lot of people it takes a long time for this to hit home. It takes a long time for them to realize that we are war. And that's basically what this is, it has come to war.

At this point in my life, New York, it's definitely heavy on mind. One day, If I decide to raise a family there, I want to show my kids the sites, I want to show them everything that I saw as a youngster, and I want to show them that there are many opportunities for them as long as they put their mind to it. I wouldn't want to have constantly worry that one day, when they go the grocery store that their lives could be threatened!

We elect a president of The United States Of America, not so he has sit back and collect his royalty checks and immediate recognition, he's put in offce to make a difference and to maintain this countries safety at all costs.

Every corner I turn, people look at me with blood shot eyes, and merely ask why now? Why now, after all of this time, we've never done anything to retaliate with the numerous attacks this county has faced. Well, we can't go back, we can only move forward. At this point and time, there is more then enough evidence to find those who were responsible for such acts of violence on Sept 11th, and we can't just hold back and wait for them to strike. It's now or never.

In New York, at this point there are millions of people around the world who no longer feel safe. We have to do whatever it takes to regain that high level of security, and to regain confidence wthin each other, in memory of all of those who suffered and continue to suffer through this tragedy. We can't just hide and forget all about this, bcause the healing process hasn't begun yet. The healing porocess will begin once these creeps are under our control, and once their weapon resources are destroyed.


"The **** has finally hit the fan," what most people don't realize, or want to admit is that for years in foreign countries, people have been planning an attack on America, and it's never going to stop if we continue to look away.

-Joseph

its just important to remember that returning hate to hatefull people does not solve anything. Only trouble is thats what peoples natural instinct is to do...

I agree with Blackrose... My main point is, I'm intreseted why you all think that the talaban are unreasonable and un-nogotaible poeple? (I've seen nothing in their history to say other wise, in fact they're know for keeping thier word... although they do make alot o' drugs).What do We lose by putting forward evidence and seeing if the talaban keep their word? Why haven't the US and UK gone to the UN with evidence and then taken approprate steps so that's it's all kosher?
The truth of the matter is, SteveP said this before in the "america under attack thread", the fact that Osama Bin Laden being made a scape goat will always look justifiable as he's responsable for the embasy bombings, even though he may be innocent of this, but is it worth going to war with Afganistan?
What worries me most about the fact that Osam Bin Laden has been made a quick fix for our needs to see a culprit, is that the real poeple are still out there!!!
I don't belive Bin Laden is responsible as on the 11th and the few days after wards the military experts were clearly stating he simply wasn't capable of this, then the order must have come from the poeple upstairs, then they all simultanously fell silent as the old propaganda machine started to rev it's engine as it got ready to go, and the news paper went laughing their way to the bank, as Osam Bin Laden was slowly demonised, and then came the bold step that the prime minister made, He said "I believe he's guilty", and now the media is trying to make the Talaban and Al-Ka-eda (arabic for "the base") are one and the same!!!
I hope poeple keep log book/ journals of this, as in years to come the truth will start to come out, but few poeple will care...

By the way, to those of you who remeber the TWA dissaster, you'll remember that a few days after wards the black box was found, and there was a suspision of terrorism, it later turned out not to be... but my point is that the tape was release to the press, the black box for the plane that went into the pentagon has been recovered (a few days after the crash infact), why Hasn't this been release to the press? Even as evidence that the hi-jacker did speak arabic?