Now the Taliban will pay a price

This was part of the old discussion on imperialism. I think it deserves a response . . .

Originally posted by educatedfilm
I think we can afford to pay a fair price for oil (the present price of oil means that's it's cheaper than spring water!!!!)...

I don't know where you buy your water, but I can go down to the supermarket and pick up a gallon of purified spring water for 25 cents. Don't you pay something like 5 pounds for a liter of gas? You think that's a fair price?? The arabs are getting rich off us. They should be thankful that we're over there, because without us, the majority of them would still be living in caves.

Now for the new stuff . . .

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
I think the West in general, and the USA in particular, have finally learned something that Israel has known for a long time. You cannot deal reasonably with people whose hatred has made them unreasonable.

There is no point in trying to negotiate with people whose major goal in life, instilled in them from birth, [u]is to kill you, or die in the attempt.[/u]

Lordathestrings for president!

The Taliban issued a statement late last week that said that even if the US could prove that Bin Laden was guilty they would not turn him over. So why bother trying to convince these madmen of his guilt in the first place!!!

Originally posted by educatedfilm
My main point is, I'm intreseted why you all think that the talaban are unreasonable and un-nogotaible poeple?

Turn in your decks of cards and your kites, folks, I'm afraid they're against Islamic law.

Read this -

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/30/wtal30.xml

Then tell me how "reasonable" the Taliban are.

Originally posted by Christoph
I don't know where you buy your water, but I can go down to the supermarket and pick up a gallon of purified spring water for 25 cents. Don't you pay something like 5 pounds for a liter of gas? You think that's a fair price?? The arabs are getting rich off us. They should be thankful that we're over there, because without us, the majority of them would still be living in caves.

History/Geography Class flashback: Mesipotamia: The Cradle of Civilization. That would be modern day Iraq.

Anyway, no there is no compromise with terrorists. I highly doubt any of them will suddenly grow a concious in this life anyway. What we do have to keep in mind that our foregn policy is largely responsible for driving people to terrorism. That means putting more pressure on Israel and Palestine to make real peace. It means finding a way to punish Saddam Hussein for his crimes, but still allow the people of Iraq to eat. And yes, terrorists, sponsors of terrorism, and the like all must be brought to justice.

Simply attacking those we hold responsible today does absolutely no good so long as we do nothing to stop more young men from taking their place.

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
History/Geography Class flashback: Mesipotamia: The Cradle of Civilization. That would be modern day Iraq.

What? I'm sure there was supposed to be something really clever about that response.

I assume you're talking about Mesopotamia. Yes . . . it was the cradle of civilization . . . about 5 thousand years ago! But they've been in total squalor for the last 500 years, until we came along.

[i]
Read this -

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/30/wtal30.xml

Then tell me how "reasonable" the Taliban are.

[/B]

who gives a crap about osama. as long as were bombing afganistan we may as well hit a reasonable target like those bastards.

My feelings in a nutshell are 1)- We should not be waging war on the Afghan people. 2)- We should bring Bin Laden and his henchmen to justice, they should be given a fair trial (it took the Mossad years to catch up with Adolf Eichmann yet they managed to arrest him without spilling innocent blood). 3)- We should try to seek a swift peace deal between Israel and the Palestinian people, this will remove one of Bin Laden's most potent political weapons, such a deal should be fair and enforceable by the UN should either side break any treaties. Finally, it's all going to drag on for years so f*&k it all and play your guitars.

Remember as someone said "War is nature's way of teaching Americans geography".

Originally posted by howie50
3)- We should try to seek a swift peace deal between Israel and the Palestinian people.

Peace between Isreal and Palestine? Peace in the middle east at all? Impossible. There never will be peace in the middle east or surrounding area as long as there are people there. At all.

Peace in the middle east:
i think we will reach peace in the next few years, because one day someone will find a plan that will be unrejectable
for both sides, or the usa will just grow tired of us, and force us to make peace which will work for some time
anyway, during WWII stalin, roosevelt and the english guy whose name is too complicated to spell, had a meeting where they decided they wont negotiate with hitler and the germans, untill germany surrenders
i think usa should accept this policy about the terror
i was very glad to hear usa declined the taliban's offer to send bin laden to a neutral country to be judged there
because the problem is not bin laden - he is just a single human being, but the problem is that thousands of new bin ladens are growing up right now in the terror countries
and this is the problem the free world should deal with, not just single people who are responsible for the specific act of terror
and when you have a country which government supports the terror, and most of the people in this country support the governemt, like in math it is all very simple: those people are the bad guys and so they should be treated
im not saying usa shall kill all the muslims in all those countries, but since power is the only language they understand thats the language usa should use with them

Christop: hehehe... I'm impressed you know about our high feul prices, last time i checked it was about 79p per liter ($1.14)... This is because most of the price is infact tax!! (the same goes for alcohol!!)
I've bought Spring water 100ml for 28p (40c). it's more than the price of oil in Saudi arabia... I'll try and get you the exact figures for a barrel of oil...
I think it's a bit mean to say they'd be living in caves if it wasn't for us... I mean if you look at what happened in the 70's, where all the arab countries decided to simulatnously stop pumping oil western society nearly stopped and this was only for a breif period, you'll relize we owe them!!! They're making money by an honest means, and they have the chioce at how much they sell, how much they sell it for etc...
I'm very optimistic about peace in the middle east, dispite the recent assasination... There is a chance that the palastinains will be given an independent state (a proper one not some "leapord skin state, which will solve the main problem, but there were still be kashmire like situation about what belongs to who, who stole it when, etc...
Horror stories exist about the talaban as it does with Indonesia, as with China, as with Isreal, as with Saudi Arabia, but the poeple who are responible for these acts dont sit at the nogotaition tables. This is nothing to do with how the Talaban nogotaite... Also the truth maybe a little exagerated, you can clearly see by the language the auther is not neutral (or any where near that)... Another thing is the whole interview is with one person (Hafiz Sadiqulla Hassani), so this is probably and extreme example taken to somehow represent the entire talaban, this is an old trick... If you want to read something neurtal read " the independant" especailly Robert Fisk's articals..
The talaban are no angels, but I get a little upset when we're giving emotivly phrased stories, with one acount, which has been hand picked as being the best story (and so the most extreme). We're not stupid, and we can see what is going on...

The current (10/17) price of a barrel of crude oil on the international commodities market is $22. Now you're telling me that water is more expensive? Give me a break.

I never said that they (Arab countries) weren't making an honest living. They have every right to sell their oil at whatever price they see fit. The point is that without our money and our technology (the combustion engine), they would never have developed their oil fields in the first place.

We don't owe them anything. As far as I'm concerned, they have no right to hate us. You think things are bad for them now? They were even worse before the foriegn companies showed up with their bags full of money and started developing their sad-ass countries.

As for the article - yes, it is only one point of view and it may be a bit sensationalistic. However, there is always a grain of truth, even in the most skewed reporting.

I told myself I wouldn't get involved in this really, but this oil thing disturbs me a bit. Christoph, you assume that people are necessarily better off in developed countries, but in what way? I admit that I like my computer and my electric guitar and my cars, etc, but this is me, and plenty of cultures are quite happy living how they want to live, why should we assume that they would be happier with our technology? The wealth that is created by arab countries through oil goes entirely to the very few wealthy people in high places, the average worker sees nothing of it, so maybe life is good for the Saddams of this world, but not for the rest. Economic sanctions are put on countries like Iraq, that mean that the average person goes without food, do you think that the Government distributes the money evenly? In order for Iraq to satisfy America's "food for oil" deal, to keep at least some people with food, workers are put to death on the oil fields, working until they cannot continue. Meanwhile, the oil fields are being over-farmed (is this the right word? you know what I mean), so tha tin a very short time they will run dry. This is merely to keep their end of the bargain with the US. In order to manufacture enough oil, Iraq makes themselves unable to create agricultural industries and the like, making them unable to become independant from the US; practically all of Iraq's food now comes from overseas. This is a vicious circle, which continues to keep Iraq creating oil at America's bidding. Iraq is now in the position of being totally dependant on foregn countries, who still impose sanctions on them, so they are unable to develop. So, how is this money that they get for oil helping them? Saddam is very rich. So are a couple of others. Yes, that seems fair. I bet the people are really happy for their leaders having the new technology of the combustion engine, so that they can further distinguish the rich from the peasants.

Originally posted by Bardsley
...Yes, that seems fair. I bet the people are really happy for their leaders having the new technology of the combustion engine, so that they can further distinguish the rich from the peasants.

Now that's sarcasm!

My question is there.. What do we lose by presenting the evidence to the talaban and seeing if they keep their word?

Bardsley has pretty much hit the nail on the head there (although Iraq's economy wasn't really agriculture based... I think)...
I dont think we'de be making internal combustion engines on a large scale, or anything for that matter, any work to do with the economy would be seriously difficult if they hadn't invented modern numbers... In fact i dont think personal computers as we see them now would exists if they hadn't invented algebra...
Do you know how many gallons of Oil there are in a barrel?

IT's not a case of who owe's who right now, the arab world is having political probelms and needs help... The same goes for the far east... Real help, not help just to quickly cash in on the countries' resources...

One last point, I think you'll find the multi-national companies have alot of enemies, because they're not wholly honest, just read up on "SHELL" that nice company wich sells you petrol, they've bribed dictators to basically let them do what they want, as poeple who campaingn against them are hanged... Check for your self..
Read up on NAFTA ( i think that's how you spell it) that came about under Clinton, and see how mexico's poor feel about that...

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that Iraq wass an agriculturally based country, but rather that they are now unable to move in that direction. If you hear about what Shell have done in Nigeria, you wouldn't think that they were in any way nice guys. Of course, I'm not sure that the actions of a company have much to do with this discussion, but I am now butting out of this debate again, I can't pretend to know much about that part of the world, and I have a feeling that some of the rest of us can't either...

No no no, i didn't mean to say they were nice, I was being sarcastic but that kinda of isn't clear... I was talking about the their dealings in Nigeria, and the hanging of protesters... I brought it up because christoph said it was these multinational companies which bring in money and the arabs should be grateful...

I've been overrun by liberal "free thinkers" and all my allies are gone.

Educatedfilm, you're totally missing the point. I can buy a barrel of water for cheaper than a barrel of oil! (this is a totally ridiculous discussion, and I don't even remember why we're arguing about it)

As for the rest - history goes in cycles and everything repeats itself. The advances of the ancient Greeks and Arabs were built upon by European scientists of the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution and then finally by the Americans in the early 1900s. Everyone's knowledge is built upon someone else's. So there's really no point in this discussion.

There's one thing that's not going to change. Everybody hates everybody else, and war, strife, hunger, injustice, and poverty will continue. All you people can go on talking about how much you hate the west and how it's our fault, but we can't do anything to help a corrupt people. We can only defend ourselves, our countries, and our way of life.

You can talk all day about the poor and the injustice of western society and the grievances of the arabs, but when Usama comes along he's gunna blow your head off like all the rest. So you might as well just appreciate what you have and leave the policy-making to those in power.

I understand where you're all coming from, but although we don't quite fully understand the intentions of these culprits, nor do we know how to reason with them, in some ways we're not supposed to know, nor will we ever. The only thing that rings a bell is common evil.

I know how a lot of people feel in a matter such as this, where we shouldn't give up in trying to reason with these terrorists, perhaps find common ground, especially with the intelligence committees we have on board. However, the key word is terrorists, and in that case there is no common ground.

It's merely a suicide mission, "and with their so caled relgion" they feel it's necessarily and definitely worth it to die for their beliefs. They are playing GOD. Peace is not on their agenda, but to simply satisfy their impulses for destruction.

I know the past has told us many stories, and has given us a million reasons to believe that attacking foreign countries until they squeal like pigs is not the answer, however we are running out of choices. We can no longer leave this country we live in at risk. We can't sit back and wait for another level of destruction. Because there might be another level of destruction, even worse than anthrax, and the sad part is we may never quite understand why! And such stagnent ideas, well that makes me count my lucky stars that Al Gore didnt make it all the way. The democrats have partied long enough with our money and our time. It's time to get down to business!

Originally posted by Christoph
All you people can go on talking about how much you hate the west and how it's our fault, but we can't do anything to help a corrupt people. We can only defend ourselves, our countries, and our way of life.

Yes..

-Joseph

Originally posted by Christoph
I've been overrun by liberal "free thinkers" and all my allies are gone.


You can talk all day about the poor and the injustice of western society and the grievances of the arabs, but when Usama comes along he's gunna blow your head off like all the rest. So you might as well just appreciate what you have and leave the policy-making to those in power.

yeah and dont forget bin laden is comming from a very rich family, unlike me and probably others here too.

all those countries blaming the west that they are poor, but those guys didnt develop since the 16 century,im not saying they are bad because they are so called "third world countries" but sure they cant develop when they are busy with blaming the west all the time.... in this case they are just like religious jews who think its wrong to drive cars or to watch movies on saturday. Both of the fanatic groups just cant understand the world has changed since the mohamed days, and since the talmud days, so now in israel because of them everything is closed in saturdays, and i cant eat pork, and in countries like pakistan or afganistan people are not even allowed to play musicial instruments because its against the islam
so why cant they look at the mirror and say "the world has changed since the writing of our law books , maybe we should find a new interpretation to it"?
the answer is simple: they are fanatics, they are here to live like their relegion tells them, and no to think, thats why in my opinion its hard to treat them like human beings no matter what their race/religion is. They are completley brain washed, and they dont even notice they act against their own relegion (islam is against suicide). you cant talk to them, you cant explain anything to them, because they dont think, they just do

If osama took over Afganistan conditions would probably improve there as long as we didnt bomb the **** out of them.


Hows that for all you free thinkers out there?

The problem with extreamists is that they polarize everything. That goes for suicide bombers, religous fanatics of all flavors, and those who are too blinded by fear and anger to think about cause and effect.

Let's try a metaphor:

Somebody punches you in the face... would you just stand there?

Me neither. I'de also like to add that I'm a very slow runner, therefor my response begins with breaking their knee, some intermediary scuffling, then kicking them on the ground for a couple of minutes as a finale.

But what are the chances of that ending there? It really depends. Either the guy will leave me along for fear of another whoopin' or will come back later with friends. My bets are on number two, it's basic human nature to want to get even.

So sure, our cultures and relgeons vary, but deep down inside, we're all the same critter responding to the same instincts. World War One began with the assassination of one world leader, it hasn't ended yet. Am I lost in the 20's? Delusional? Smoking crack in between bass riffs? No.

World War One ended very sloppily. Germany was crushed, morally, economicly, and militarily. The people felt lost and betrayed. Waiting to find somebody to point their fingers at. In steps Adolph Hitler with one hell of a speach a direction for the people to point their fingers.

Now keep in mind that at this point in time virtually all of the Mid East and Africa is under colonial rule. This basicly means that local goods and raw materials are taken from the land, brought back to England or France, processed, sold, and the profits stay with the governing nation. England had learned well from the American Revolution and no longer allows much in the way of local governments. This means no native political infrastructure.

So World War Two breaks out- Japan, disatisfied with their spoils from World War One now sides with the Axis powers. Germany invades nation after nation, and begins the Holocaust. First Ghettos, second camps, finally mass killings. Also, due to it's alegance with Italy, Germany takes over large portions of the Mid East and northern Africa while fighting with the Brittish.

At World War Two's end, millions more people had died, national boundaries have been redrawn again, the cold war has begun, yet more colonies have swapped hands, and now the Zionist movement has greatly increased support from all over the world.

The seeds for most of today's Mid East conflicts are now sewn.

England and other colonial powers suddenly pull out of these nations, leaving power vacumes, depleated resources, and great resentment towards the west in general.

It should also be noted that up until the 60s or so, the US was held in high regard by most Muslim nations: We seemed to be the one western power who "got" them and had never been a colonial power. However, some policy changes that left Arab nations in cold changed that perspective to what it is today.

So where am I going with all of this?

Yes we have to strike back at the people who did this. We MUST defend ourselves and our familes from terrorism. We are facing an evil that is an affront anda discrace to ALL people, yet is partially our creation.

So we strike at the knees to remove our attacker's mobility, we attack their ribs and solarplexus to remove their ability to breath, and we kick them on the ground to make sure they won't get up.

Then we make DAMN sure that his friends see just what an ASSHOLE that guy was being so that they leave us alone, take him home, sober him up, and SLAP HIM AGAIN FOR BEING AN ASSHOLE.

As I have said time and time again, if we do nothing to address the reasons why people turn to terrorism, then we waste every bomb, every speach, and every lost life. 6,000 dead is quite enough for me.