Crisis In the Middle East

As some of you know, I am Jewish and a strong supporter of Israel. So I thought that it would be important to have a thread about this. PLEASE READ ENTIRE POST!

On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion established "Ha Medinat Israel," or the State of Israel. The next day, five Arab armies invaded the fledgling state of 600,000 Jews.

For the past 58 years, the State of Israel has been attacked many times my many Arab states, and too many terrorists organizations who's only goal is the murder of all the Jews in the state, and the states destruction. Open war erupted many times, in 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1982. The Jewish state has always wanted peace and has not ever declined a peace agreement that was fair. In the struggle for peace, over 5,000 innocent Israelis have been killed. On to the current crisis...

Since the election of the terrorist organization Hamas in the Gaza strip in January, OVER 1,000 ROCKETS HAVE FALLEN IN SOUTHERN ISRAELI TOWNS. This is something you usually do not hear. The larger problems from Gaza began in 1993 when Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin signed a peace accord with Yassir Arafat, who said that the peace agreement had no worth. In 2002, the PLO declared an intifada in which hundreds of innocent Israelis were murdered when doing very common things and EATING LUNCH. Now really, on to the current strugle.

On June 25, (When I also happened to be in Israel), 7 Palestinian TERRORISTS, not militants crossed the border into Israel, killed two soldiers, and kidnapped one, Corporal Gilad Shalit, a 19 year old boy. The same day, terrorists kidnapped and murdered an 18 year old civilian. The Israeli military began an incursion into Gaza, which ended in nothing.

On Wednesday, July 12, Hezballah terrorists entered Israel, murdered eight soldiers, and kidnapped two. Later that day, a missile hit Israel's third largest city, and largest port, Haifa. It's like if Chicago or Boston where being shelled. One woman was killed, and the Israeli airforce began to bomb Hezballah targets in Lebanon. The reason for the bombing of the airport was so weapons could not enter, or the terrorists could leave with the two kidnapped soldiers.

ONE final note: If any country was being attacked by terrorists, was being shelled, and was having it's people and soldiers kidnapped, it would NOT exsersice restraint. Israels attack is NOT out of hand, and could even be bigger. They are doing the world a favor in destroying Hezballah. So you think about the Israeli people who have been murdered for being Jews, and for wanting peace.

Well stated Fender-you'll get no argument from me. I can only pray for some sort of resolution to this as it has already cost lives and more hang in the balance. War has never solved any problems. It is only a channel to achieve peace.

Thoughts and prayers to all involved and a wish for wisdom amongst the leaders.

Originally Posted by: hunter60Well stated

Thank you :)

Originally Posted by: hunter60Well stated Fender-you'll get no argument from me. I can only pray for some sort of resolution to this as it has already cost lives and more hang in the balance. War has never solved any problems. It is only a channel to achieve peace.

Thoughts and prayers to all involved and a wish for wisdom amongst the leaders.

same here man to me thats just wrong and ill pray for them also war solves nothing :eek: i never heard this stuff neither this is real news this si what should be brodcasted not brushed over and combed junk

Im not going to join in this thread as I am a moderator and as such will keep my opinions to my self.

Please feel free to exchange ideas and engage in lively debate however, please also remember this forum has rules.

At GT we encourage you to make your point but also be respectful of other peoples.

Originally Posted by: Dr_simonIm not going to join in this thread as I am a moderator and as such will keep my opinions to my self.

Please feel free to exchange ideas and engage in lively debate however, please also remember this forum has rules.

At GT we encourage you to make your point but also be respectful of other peoples.

I understand Doc, and will keep myself in check. But I also hope other people do to, because this is a very hard and angering topic, atleast for me.

Yep, I don't quite understand the criticism of Israel's defensive retaliation (at least from much of Europe...Russia and China I get). I really find myself at a loss for words at the moment, but you'll get no criticism from me. We nearly went to nuclear war with the Soviet Union over just the prospect of missiles in Cuba. So to have missiles raining down (unguided into civilians no less) is enough to provoke any country to action.

the bombing in Lebanon is bad as well BUT the Lebanese government needs to do something...like get rid of those fanatics who go by the name hezbollah i don't think they are trying to do anything to stop them....one can not tell me that the government of Lebanon does not know where these jerks are....and that they can't stop them.....{deleted by moderator}......... i HATE religious fanaticism


{Moderator's note: By all means, express your opinion, but please be civil about it.}

I think there is something to the calls for israel to excercise moderation in it's response. I'm not quite jewish, but my partner is so I like to think I'm fairly well informed.

Escalation is the thing. 2 soldiers get captured - now here is where I start getting confused. Being a soldier is a fairly risky vocation, and while any loss of life is regrettable, I don't see why a soldier's life is worth any more than a civilians. It's fair enough for Israel to go and get them back, it's also fair enough as far as it goes for Hezbollah, or Iran, or whoever to retaliate or defend as appropriate to stop what is in essence an invasion. Lebanese casualties far out number Israeli ones, and Israel have the hardware to make Lebanon disappear, but that doesn't mean they have to roll out their toys every time something isn't going their way.

For example, I think it's OK to say that generally the British dislike the French and there have doubtless been many occaisions when we would have been 'justified' in blowing the crap out of them. However, common sense for the most part prevails and we all sit down and talk it out.

Israel are in my opinion way too keen to jump to use of force, despite history showing them that it doesn't work. I am becoming concerned that there may be more to this, and Israel is maybe looking to expand it's borders rather than defend the ones it has.

No disrespect, and probably a shaky understanding of the details of it all, but I don't understand how when everyone says they don't want the violence, it happens anyway. New leader trying to assert his authority?

I dislike the western double standard. If the roles were reversed, I'm pretty sure the US / UK or whoever would be telling Lebanon to stop attacking Israel, or we'll come down there and crack some heads. Israel seem to be a law unto themselves. If Lebanon had Oil - we'd be there already.

Originally Posted by: zreynoldsp. If Lebanon had Oil - we'd be there already.

You saed it man... And it is the truth.

Originally Posted by: zreynoldspIf Lebanon had Oil - we'd be there already.

agreed.

anybody see george bush speak about it, how he was all calling for peace and saying things like "i don't understand why there's violence there" and so on so forth. biggest hypocrit ever.

I guess for the us or western/asian world going to war means paying a heap of money in the end and supporting the invaded country etc and that can only be justified by economic gain such as oil, what we find weird is that these people will fight eachother for classic reasons like pride, and land and all that sorta stuff, if the US was fighting wars for land it woulda have taken canada and mexico by now, i can imagine it wouldn't be that hard to do...

Those damn crazy arabs!

as far as i understand this went all the way back to the second world war (correct me if i am wrong). before the ww2 the britsih held controll of that are of land, the empire that had held it before was some arab one, i forgewt the name. now the british werent particularly liked, they werent really in any of the colonies. so the british basically said to the arabs help us fight and we will let u have this land.

but at the end of the war instead of giving the arabs jerusalem (lets not forget it is a holy city to muslims too). they gave it to the nely created state of israel, which was created from the mass of jews that fled europe during ww2.

now it is understandable why the arab people might feel that land is theres by right, so it is not unatural for them to go try and take it. on the other hand for the first time in a while there was a jewish state, a place of there own, so it is natural they would want to defend it. and so the wars started.

the wars in turn create animosity on both sides, leading to escalation.

now to the present. if you are from israel it is natural to feel anger at the terrorism from fanatics. but at the same time if you are a civilian arab, and your distict has been blown apart because there have been terrorists in the area you have just as much justification to feel angered. because the israelis attack atack the arab states, more young arabs fell they have to fight back to defend their country, eventually they become fanatics. and because the fanatics attack the israelis feel they have to respond in kind. and so the situation escalates again.

sadly i dont really know how to stop this, certanly violence only breeds more violence. and the combination of weak arab goverments and "gun ho" israeli army, will just lead to an escalation. and also sadly the west cannot make them stop, things will only change if the people in the gulf want it to change, if they want peace. and i dont think this will happen for a long time, because at the end of the day they bth want jerusalem.

I cant say I know enough about the topic either way, and so I dont really have any valid opinions on the topic.
I do think that there must be a way for both religions to share the land that they acknowledge as sacred though...I realise I am an idealist

Originally Posted by: suicidalmooseagreed.

anybody see george bush speak about it, how he was all calling for peace and saying things like "i don't understand why there's violence there" and so on so forth. biggest hypocrit ever.

I guess for the us or western/asian world going to war means paying a heap of money in the end and supporting the invaded country etc and that can only be justified by economic gain such as oil, what we find weird is that these people will fight eachother for classic reasons like pride, and land and all that sorta stuff, if the US was fighting wars for land it woulda have taken canada and mexico by now, i can imagine it wouldn't be that hard to do...

Those damn crazy arabs!

I'm not a Bush fan myself, but what do you expect the guy to say? Go attack each other! Kill more civilians, capture more soldiers, bomb the hell out of each other, ect. I mean, give the guy a break.

Its not just the so called "crazy" Arabs. You can't view this as a one sides situation. I mean Israel did bomb an airport, correct me if I'm wrong. And actually I have a question, if anyone knows, why did they bomb the airport (was it an accident or something).

I can't really take sides in this situations, because all the news I read is bias towards Israel, but I'm praying for the safety of everyone over there and peace... even though it seems impossible.

If I'd damn anything, it'd be war.

Originally Posted by: iihollyIsrael did bomb an airport, correct me if I'm wrong. And actually I have a question, if anyone knows, why did they bomb the airport (was it an accident or something).

It was deliberate, but the Israelis say it was to stop either the movement of arms or the soldiers that are being held. Might be the real reason, but then they also destroyed water works and power stations in Gaza with no lofty explanation. Looks to me like punishing a nation for the alledged actions of some of it's people (who may be for elsewhere, but anyway).

With all sides dug in to their trenches, and no-one wanting to talk, it's not gonna get any better..... Lebanon & Palestine have no means to defend themselves against Israel....

Common Military tactic to take out the supply for troops, water, and power.

With out supplies and water the troops in the feild are forced to retreat or surender. With out power the have troubles with communication.

And so... what about civilians. I'd be really pissed if I was in an airport and someone bombed it to "cut off supplies." It's bad enough to be in a airport as it is.

I know the Israelis had to retaliate, I'm just undecided if they did it in the right way. Diplomacy would come in handy right about now... too bad that probably isn't going to work. Its not looking good considering the US is evacuating people (US citizens) from Lebanon.

bombing the airport was intentional partly to prohibit peoplpe from fleeing...and i reckon this cud go big with syria wanting land as well thus supporting lebanon...and i did recal bush saying somthing like...'just try not to hit civilians'...meh i dont know its just...bad

Originally Posted by: AkiraI think just about everyone in the middle east needs a nice cold beer.

i rather they get baked...... ;)

Civilian Casualties = Collateral Damage

I am not being flippant about it. It just is the fact of the matter and has been an accepted fact for many many centuries. Some military plans are conducted just for that reason (sad to ) by how much or little the collateral damage will be.

Notice how some countries will try and hide or locate potential targets close to hospitals, schools, airports (used jointly for passenger and military aircraft) or other highly concentrated civilian locations? It is a deterent for countries like US,China, Europe, Russia--larger nations/superpowers-- who will take the diplomacy route and fight battles politically (even with troops--remember the soldier killed and drug through the streets in bosnia while his unit had to watch and not intervene becuase of diplomacy?)

We have seen time and time again that the military might/minds of the middle east use terroist tactics, their means and have no regard for any life civilian or military when planning or carrying out their military objectives.