Crisis In the Middle East

Originally Posted by: zreynoldspI think there is something to the calls for israel to excercise moderation in it's response. I'm not quite jewish, but my partner is so I like to think I'm fairly well informed.

Escalation is the thing. 2 soldiers get captured - now here is where I start getting confused. Being a soldier is a fairly risky vocation, and while any loss of life is regrettable, I don't see why a soldier's life is worth any more than a civilians. It's fair enough for Israel to go and get them back, it's also fair enough as far as it goes for Hezbollah, or Iran, or whoever to retaliate or defend as appropriate to stop what is in essence an invasion. Lebanese casualties far out number Israeli ones, and Israel have the hardware to make Lebanon disappear, but that doesn't mean they have to roll out their toys every time something isn't going their way.

For example, I think it's OK to say that generally the British dislike the French and there have doubtless been many occaisions when we would have been 'justified' in blowing the crap out of them. However, common sense for the most part prevails and we all sit down and talk it out.

Israel are in my opinion way too keen to jump to use of force, despite history showing them that it doesn't work. I am becoming concerned that there may be more to this, and Israel is maybe looking to expand it's borders rather than defend the ones it has.

No disrespect, and probably a shaky understanding of the details of it all, but I don't understand how when everyone says they don't want the violence, it happens anyway. New leader trying to assert his authority?

I dislike the western double standard. If the roles were reversed, I'm pretty sure the US / UK or whoever would be telling Lebanon to stop attacking Israel, or we'll come down there and crack some heads. Israel seem to be a law unto themselves. If Lebanon had Oil - we'd be there already.

If you count all the Israeli's killed by Hezbolla, the Israeli casualties outnumber the Lebanese by a longshot.

Originally Posted by: Fret spideras far as i understand this went all the way back to the second world war (correct me if i am wrong). before the ww2 the britsih held controll of that are of land, the empire that had held it before was some arab one, i forgewt the name. now the british werent particularly liked, they werent really in any of the colonies. so the british basically said to the arabs help us fight and we will let u have this land.

but at the end of the war instead of giving the arabs jerusalem (lets not forget it is a holy city to muslims too). they gave it to the nely created state of israel, which was created from the mass of jews that fled europe during ww2.

now it is understandable why the arab people might feel that land is theres by right, so it is not unatural for them to go try and take it. on the other hand for the first time in a while there was a jewish state, a place of there own, so it is natural they would want to defend it. and so the wars started.

the wars in turn create animosity on both sides, leading to escalation.

now to the present. if you are from israel it is natural to feel anger at the terrorism from fanatics. but at the same time if you are a civilian arab, and your distict has been blown apart because there have been terrorists in the area you have just as much justification to feel angered. because the israelis attack atack the arab states, more young arabs fell they have to fight back to defend their country, eventually they become fanatics. and because the fanatics attack the israelis feel they have to respond in kind. and so the situation escalates again.

sadly i dont really know how to stop this, certanly violence only breeds more violence. and the combination of weak arab goverments and "gun ho" israeli army, will just lead to an escalation. and also sadly the west cannot make them stop, things will only change if the people in the gulf want it to change, if they want peace. and i dont think this will happen for a long time, because at the end of the day they bth want jerusalem.

First of all spider, before the british, the ottoman empire had the area. Before that, the crusaders, and the ottoman empire on and off. Before that the Romans, and before that, the JEWS! From 1020 B.C.E., Israel was a Jewish country. In 722, the northern half was attacked, and taken. In 586, the southern half was also taken. Then, in 186, another Jewish dynasty took control, but then 180 years later the Romans destroyed it, and back then, arabs didn't really exist. So keep in mind, the Jews were there before anyone in the current struggle. Second, the British didn't say they would give the land to the Arabs before they left, or make an agreement. In the second world war, over 100,000 jews fought in the british army! Palestine had problems with the Arabs attacking the Jews, and then the Jews retaliating. Look at the events, 1920 arab riots, 1929 arab riots, 1936 arab revolt, 1948 Israel is established.

Originally Posted by: zreynoldspIt was deliberate, but the Israelis say it was to stop either the movement of arms or the soldiers that are being held. Might be the real reason, but then they also destroyed water works and power stations in Gaza with no lofty explanation. Looks to me like punishing a nation for the alledged actions of some of it's people (who may be for elsewhere, but anyway).

With all sides dug in to their trenches, and no-one wanting to talk, it's not gonna get any better..... Lebanon & Palestine have no means to defend themselves against Israel....

I will tell you the "lofty" explanation. Israel is being attacked every day by rockets that are fired from Gaza, by the Palestinian authority. Missiles have hit Israeli elementary schools. So the Palestinian government attacked Israel, a declaration of war. So Israel attacks the infrastructure, NOT THE SCHOOLS.

I wouldn't give up my home just because some one says "historical I was here before you were." I understand that the arguement is valid, that the Jews were there first... but its not just fair to say the Arabs don't belong there because of that.

Just a quick question.

How many people that have replied to this post have military experience for their respective governments?

Hezbollah is a dangerous terrorist organisation which must be dismantled. Their rocket attacks on Israel were unquestionably an act of aggression, and Israel had every right to defend itself. But I don't believe that defence entails destruction of Lebanon's - not Hezbollah's, LEBANON's - infrastructure and the taking of innocent lives - especially when there were more effective options available. Would not a covert military operation against Hezbollah's leaders have been more effective than a full-scale invasion of Lebanon? Do correct me if I'm wrong in this perception, I don't know much about military strategy :o.

What I do know is that war is hell. Nobody "wins" a war. I agree with Holly - if you want to take sides and damn somebody, damn war itself.

Again I ask?

Who has been, or is a part of Military when replying to this post?

Sorry Guys/Gals... I don't like to double post. But I AM FORMAL MILITARY, Unit, you do not want to be a part of.

US military is 100% voluntary....no IFS and or BUTS. Voluntary. Don't like it tough? hit__Sorry moderators but if there are children reading then they should understand that the military (in te USA is 100 % volunteer not manditory some like other countries).

Either do it or dont't and if YOU DECIDE to not participate then shut the.......up.

I CAN PREACH BECUASE I GAVE MY HEART AND SOUL WILLFULLY.

Do your job and do it with a good heart.

God told moses that as long as his arm was up he would defeat his enemies. When moses'es arm got tired ---HIS SONS-- raised his arms to defeat the army. Take it to heart and forgive your "brother"

*****Sorry Guys/Gals touchy subject. Have been in the military, have 3 sons. 2 that can join the military and fight for MY country. You have the same? Done the same for YOUR country? THEN..... Talk to me. If not you are no better than the "dixie chicks", "Bono",...Sorry agan for the animosity but I do not like bleeding heart liberals telling me I am a conservative fanatic and I have no recousre for my feelings.

It is a sad stae of affairs but we need to let what will be ...be.

I just found out ... MY FAMILY MEMBER was killed.

Calm down Jimmy. I wish I could partake in this one but I'll side step it. Sorry about your family member buddy but that's no reason to yell at us for what we believe in. If we can't say what's on our mind freely then what were you and your family members fighting for?

Radical Islam has one goal...destroying western civilization by whatever means necessary. Pacifism, diplomacy, and/or appeasement all make no difference. The times demand that a country harboring terrorists must take action to remove it or be considered a supporter of it. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Lebanon has been under a UN mandate to remove this aspect of terrorism for several years already but no effort has been put forth. I think what we need to realise is that this is more important than just Jews and Arabs fighting over land again. It's yet another front on the war on terrorism. And if Lebanon won't take action, then Israel will. I personally salute them for taking a stand.

And about this civilian targets aspect, there has never been a war without civilian casualties. However, Israel is using laser and GPS guided bombs for extreme precision to avoid this as much as possible. While Hezbollah launches random missiles intentionally toward civilians from civilian areas.

Originally Posted by: jimmy_kwtxEither do it or dont't and if YOU DECIDE to not participate then shut the.......up.

Sorry agan for the animosity but I do not like bleeding heart liberals telling me I am a conservative fanatic and I have no recousre for my feelings.

I can't see anywhere in this thread anyone telling you or anybody else what they are or are not. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone anything. What I see is another round in the game - I do think Israel over react - what would happen if they were disarmed and left with comparitively short range weapons while the Palestinians get the heavy kit? then we'll see how the sides conduct themselves. There is a massive imbalance here. I don't know if this is all just bubbling until an Israeli bomb sneaks over a border into Syria (accidently or not), and then all hell breaks loose.

I am a liberal, and would not expect to have to apologise for it any more than I would expect you to apologise for your point of view. All I'd like to see is balance.

How is it that the latest UN statement went along the lines of sending a peace keeping force to stop Hezbollah throwing the rockets, therefore giving Israel an opportunity to stop attacking Lebanon? Why was it phrased like that? Why not stop Israel from bombing Lebanon so Hezbollah have a reason to stop the rocket attacks on Israel? The west is so pro-Israeli that we'll probably make this situation worse.

I don't think either side is right or wrong. I am not a religious man, but respect other people's convictions - and all parties involved in this no doubt believe they are crusaders for righteous justice. The thing is, who will be left to enjoy the world they strive to create? Assuming God exists, he must be well impressed with his children right now... :rolleyes:

i wonder if it'd be easy if these world leaders jus told the truth. like hey i hate this conutry i'm gonna bomb them. hey this country has oil, we need oil, we're going to bomb them. it'd be so much easier.

I don't really want to argue, but... I have two things to say since Pony One pretty much covered it.

1) What is a nation without working class? A working class that pays taxes, acts in the community, and votes.

2) I may be liberal... but I don't like the Dixie Chicks.

I'm sorry for your loss Jimmy.


Anyways, I read about the UN statement as well. It contradicted itself so... bad (excuse my lack of adjectives but I'm running on not many hours of sleep). It just appears things are going to get worse from here, and any efforts to "de-escalate" seem like they're only escalating the situation.

I wish terrorists would just make their own nation, so we could just attack them and not innocent people. I also wish the news wasn't so bias towards one side. I also wish the news would have more serious stories then "George Bush Caught Cursing." I don't care if Bush says a bad word in a private conversation, which accidently was heard because a mic was on. Oh my god he said "****"!!!!!! He also prefers diet coke... just in case anyone was wondering.

I think we should attack terrorists wherever they seek refuge. If a country doesn't want to risk their civilians getting f*xd in the head with shrapnel they shouldn't harbor murderers.

Originally Posted by: jimmy_kwtxSorry Guys/Gals... I don't like to double post. But I AM FORMAL MILITARY, Unit, you do not want to be a part of.

US military is 100% voluntary....no IFS and or BUTS. Voluntary. Don't like it tough? hit__Sorry moderators but if there are children reading then they should understand that the military (in te USA is 100 % volunteer not manditory some like other countries).

Either do it or dont't and if YOU DECIDE to not participate then shut the.......up.

I CAN PREACH BECUASE I GAVE MY HEART AND SOUL WILLFULLY.

Do your job and do it with a good heart.

God told moses that as long as his arm was up he would defeat his enemies. When moses'es arm got tired ---HIS SONS-- raised his arms to defeat the army. Take it to heart and forgive your "brother"

*****Sorry Guys/Gals touchy subject. Have been in the military, have 3 sons. 2 that can join the military and fight for MY country. You have the same? Done the same for YOUR country? THEN..... Talk to me. If not you are no better than the "dixie chicks", "Bono",...Sorry agan for the animosity but I do not like bleeding heart liberals telling me I am a conservative fanatic and I have no recousre for my feelings.

It is a sad stae of affairs but we need to let what will be ...be.

I just found out ... MY FAMILY MEMBER was killed.

thank YOUR prez....no "liberal" wanted them there

What is differentiates a country that willingly harbors terrorist to one that doesn't? Does anyone have a solid article or statistics that can present this information to me? I kind of browsed through google, and couldn't find anything (but I am at work.) What if the country doesn't have the means to get terrorists out of their country?

I'm sure there are some terrorists in the US... so should we attack ourselves? (sorry for that sarcastic statement). It just seems to me everything is so vague when it comes to who is defined as a country that is a safehold for terrorists.

Originally Posted by: jimmy_kwtx

Either do it or dont't and if YOU DECIDE to not participate then shut the.......up.

yea like the current military dodging administration

Originally Posted by: iihollyWhat is differentiates a country that willingly harbors terrorist to one that doesn't?

Interesting you should mention that - Russia are upset with us english at the moment as we apparently have granted a chechen separatist political asylum here. We have had suicide bombings and have Islamic extremists here. We are harbouring terrorists, and you're right, the US probably is too. I'm sure I heard something about a Jihad training camp in oregon (???).

Lebanon have accepted that Hezbollah need to be stopped, but have asked the international community for help as they cannot do it. Lebanon is being attacked, not just Hezbollah.

I think what defines a country that is a safe haven for terrorists is what the G8 leaders say. Probably every country has them to an extent. It's all about the currently defined 'Axis of Evil'...

Why doesn't Israel just swap prisoners!?! I know why, or why they say "to not encourage them to take more hostages" or whatever. This is so frustrating to me. It seems a lot of violence could have been prevented by this.

Yeah, I understand the whole "axis of evil" concept, but how did they pick those countries. Out of a hat? With actual reliable statistics? With the infamous U.S. intelligence?

I've just read this on a news site - seemed to sum it up:

"The USA and its CIA/FBI (and with all their funds) couldn't detect nor stop 9/11. The British and its secret services (and all their funds)couldn't detect nor stop the bombings in London. The Israeli's and the infamous Mossad cannot discover in advance nor stop the suicide bombers that wander in its own territory. Yet no one accuses these countries as being a party to terrorism. But we expect the Lebanese and the Palestinians to have much better intelligence with virtually no resources?? Wake Up"

Fair Point?