Originally Posted by: axemaster911Yea, but As for my question, by your example of symetrical scale ( I think your talking about whole tone, or half scale ) would the notes that dident fall into the diatonic pattern be considered accidentals? And if so, is the diatonic scale patterns ( with 7 notes ) the normal standard for playing in key without accidentals?
Originally Posted by: axemaster911And I asume your saying that diatonic scales with flats, or sharps have accidentals in them, and those such as in C major dont?
Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsCorrect. Now, there is a symbol that references when a note is meant to be natural and it's used just the same as any accidental would be, but I'm not really sure if that, by definition, counts as an accidental. I'm gonna go poke around on the internet real quick and find out for sure on that one.
Originally Posted by: axemaster911The Ionian G major scale, G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G you referred to is in perfict diatonic scale. w-w-h-w-w-w-h
If the Ionian G major would have been writen =G-A-B-C-D-E-F
w-w-h-w-w-h-w
Then I belive that would show the Ionian G major diatonic scale to be writen with an accidental, or mutated into the Mixolydian.
What I am really saying is dont belive that the diatonic scale in any form has an accidental unless a composer writes it with a note outside the set diatonic pattern regardless of sharps, flats, or naturals.
If I am wrong I am looking forward to examples to prove otherwise.
Originally Posted by: axemaster911The Ionian G major scale, G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G you referred to is in perfict diatonic scale. w-w-h-w-w-w-h
If the Ionian G major would have been writen =G-A-B-C-D-E-F
w-w-h-w-w-h-w
Then I belive that would show the Ionian G major diatonic scale to be writen with an accidental, or mutated into the Mixolydian.
What I am really saying is dont belive that the diatonic scale in any form has an accidental unless a composer writes it with a note outside the set diatonic pattern regardless of sharps, flats, or naturals.
If I am wrong I am looking forward to examples to prove otherwise.
Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonG-A-B-C-D-E-F-G is G mixolydian, which is a diatonic mode.
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G is G ionian, which is another diatonic mode.
Being diatonic has nothing to do with accidentals. Diatonic just means "in key."
Originally Posted by: axemaster911I have done alot of investigation into accidentals, and the most basic definition I have come across is " a wrong note ". Now thats certainly not the way I look at them because no matter what scale I am playing their is always cool sounds to be explored by sampling notes outside the scale.[/QUOTE]
What ever you've been reading, it's just flat out wrong. That is simply not true, and that's what I've been trying to stress all this time.
Accidental = # (sharp) or b(flat)
That's absolutely it. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone that tells you otherwise is not telling you the truth. My source will be this. http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id20_en.html
Read what this lesson tells you. That is what an accidental is. Accidentals have no effect what-so-ever on what determines a diatonic scale. They're a completely different thing. Of all of the books I've read on music theory, I've never read anything that has disagreed with this.
[QUOTE=axemaster911]
But threw my studys I have always found the diatonic scale patterns to be the blueprint , or basis for most scale variations. And I just cant see an accidental, or wrong note in a basic diatonic scale.
So if you could show me a diatonic scale with an accidental in it, and explain why the note that your pointing out as an accidental, that would leave much thankful.
Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsA diatonic scale isn't a specific scale. A scale is a selection of notes within an octave. You take C Major.
You've got C D E F G A B C with W W H W W W H as your interval structure.
If you take that exact same interval structure and move it to G you have
G A B C D E F# G.
Now, if you take the notes in G Major and start on B you have
B C D E F# G A B with an interval structure of H W W W H W W.
Now, if you pull a bunch of intervals out of your ass and you get
B C Db Eb F G A B you have H H W W W W W.
Those are all examples of a diatonic scale. Notice the similarity between them? They all have 2 half steps regardless of the location and 5 whole steps also regardless of the location. That's what a diatonic scale is. Any scale that meets that criteria. It doesn't matter how many accidentals or what kind of accidental. Accidentals are completely unrelated to what makes a scale diatonic.
Originally Posted by: axemaster911If I pulled a bunch of intrevals out of my ass and got B C Db F G A B, I just dont think it would sound to good. Thats the reason I am exploring this subject is to get ideas on creating good sounds that I havent made before, as well as useing exotic scales, that I am trying to find out if they are all variations of the basic diatonic scale. [/QUOTE]To say "the diatonic scale" is not what you're thinking. There is no set of intervals in a given order that is labeled "diatonic." You're getting it confused with C Major. C Major is a form of diatonic just like G Aeolian and just like Fb Lydian. Diatonic is just a broad description of all the Major and Minor scales as well as all of the modes that you can form out of them. Some of them have accidentals, but some don't. It just depends on the root note you use.
I think you've missed the point.
[QUOTE=axemaster911]
I see what your trying to say. I am just trying to figure out if the diatonic scale is the furthist boundary of scale forms before accidentals start coming into play in scale constructions.
Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsI think you've missed the point.
To say "the diatonic scale" is not what you're thinking. There is no set of intervals in a given order that is labeled "diatonic." You're getting it confused with C Major. C Major is a form of diatonic just like G Aeolian and just like Fb Lydian. Diatonic is just a broad description of all the Major and Minor scales as well as all of the modes that you can form out of them. Some of them have accidentals, but some don't. It just depends on the root note you use.
Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsI think you've missed the point.
To say "the diatonic scale" is not what you're thinking. There is no set of intervals in a given order that is labeled "diatonic." You're getting it confused with C Major. C Major is a form of diatonic just like G Aeolian and just like Fb Lydian. Diatonic is just a broad description of all the Major and Minor scales as well as all of the modes that you can form out of them. Some of them have accidentals, but some don't. It just depends on the root note you use.
