Is this part of any scale?

Originally posted by griphon2
A raised 6 or augmented 6 or #6, IS a b7.

Yeah, enharmonically speaking they are the same note(sound). We have been though this before, the reason one is #6 and other is b7 is because of their function within the key and/or chord. It actually saves alot of confusion when you are aware of this. It's just like counting, and it makes the whole chordal structure into 32 total chords. Mixing them up will multiply that number. Plus the fact of using them within a key, would multiply that again a couple of times. But go with what is easier for you.

Originally posted by griphon2
French, Italian and German Augmented 6s are the classical equivalents to dominant 7th chords. (neapolitan 6s are bII chords).
As I said in a post, that's a PRAGMATIC view.

Well, as an american I not aware of and not concerned with the french, italian, and german ways. To me they couldn't have made it anymore confusing by doing that, I thought music was one language. If I'm clear on what your saying. A #6 doesn't exist in the Neopolitan scale, it's a b6. There is a b7, again saying that is a #6 only makes things more confusing. If thats the way the french, italian, and germans see it. Kool, but they probably see other things differently too. Which would probably rival everything that the american system stands for and works for me (cause I'm american). To me, it is a waste to even pursue any interest in that. As I clearly explained before, they (aug6 and dom7) are not the same chord. Not even enharmonically. In the end, since we're both american it's a waste to even bring it up in the first place. No offense.

P.s The Augmented sixth chord is also called and can be found more traditionally as a Augmented 4th (second inversion) and a m/maj7 (4th inversion).

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-13-2003 at 02:41 PM]

Now that this ego crap is not out of the way, let's be honest. It surprises me the proctor or prompter of this forum is not saying anything. This plain misinformation is horrifying.

[Edited by griphon2 on 02-13-2003 at 08:23 PM]

Originally posted by griphon2
Now that this ego crap is not out of the way, let's be honest. It surprises me the proctor or prompter of this forum is not saying anything. This plain misinformation is horrifying.

Griphon, seriously man. The only person here that is on a ego trip is you. You contiously say that I'm giving misinformation but yet you never explain yourself and/or why you disagree. If I'm misinformed why don't you speak up with a good solid explaination. I'm waiting and listening...

Either give your side of the story or admit your wrong. Or do you choose Pride over truth?? You were clearly talking about chords when this disagreement began. Here's you quote:

Originally posted by griphon2
Advance jazz or players understand the difference between the two chords implicitly. We understand the resolution of the tritone in both chords. The tedium is explaining German, French, and Italian Augmented 6 chords. PRAGMATICALLY, most of my ilk call them dominant or V7 chords. It's just easier.

I think you said chords 4 times. Clearly you are talking about chords, and that the dominant 7 and augmented 6 are the same chord. I clearly said that an Augmented 6 chord is NOT a dominant 7th chord. In your reply, you changed it to seem like you were talking about enharmonically spelling. As you can see here:

Originally posted by griphon2
A raised 6 or augmented 6 or #6, IS a b7.

You clearly changed your statement to try to avoid the fact that you were wrong. I would call that pride. If I am mistaken then prove me wrong.

Here's the difference, as plain as day, between an Augmented 6 chord and a Dominant 7 chord. I'll use C as the root.

Caug: C, E, G#
Caug6: C, E, G#, A
Cmaj: C, E, G
Cdom7: C, E, G, Bb

You can clearly see they are not the same, enharmonically or rearranged in any way. Explain to me how this is wrong, instead of trying to make me look like the bad guy. Please.

I was hoping for support. Since I have none, I'll take you on. You CAN NOT PROVE what I'm saying is wrong. I can prove what you're saying IS wrong. Even if you believe the internet is half honest or correct, I can prove you WRONG. I have hopelessly, tried to be kind. Your information is at times, incorrect! To think that French, Italian, or German 6s is a new musical system, or your logic of Bach and Santana, insults, my and every decent musician's, that has spent much time in the realm, intelligence. I extremely dislike this argument and wish to partake no longer. What YOU are spreading is a POV. It is not always correct, and not always HONEST. I've probably been in this business longer than you've been alive. Don't ever condescend, especially to me. If the forum wishes me to leave, I will do it quickly and without remorse or ill feeling. This stuff is NOT difficult, contrary to popular belief. I just hope it's still guitar TRICKS.

Originally posted by griphon2
You CAN NOT PROVE what I'm saying is wrong. I can prove what you're saying IS wrong. Even if you believe the internet is half honest or correct, I can prove you WRONG.

So where is it????? Where's your proof???

Originally posted by griphon2
I have hopelessly, tried to be kind. Your information is at times, incorrect!

With all due respect, you have not yet proven me wrong, so I must not be wrong all the time. I also aware that I am not always right, and I am willing to accept that. Are you??

Originally posted by griphon2
To think that French, Italian, or German 6s is a new musical system, or your logic of Bach and Santana, insults, my and every decent musician's, that has spent much time in the realm, intelligence.

I never said it was a new system, I actually said that pretty much everything in music theory came from Italy and germany. Far from saying it is a new system I would say.

I'm sorry it insults you but I have every right to my opinion. I will say this again, I respect all musicians who came before me and that will come. But I still have my opinion about it and I have tried to keep it without disrespect. If not, I apology, I do not mean it that way.

Originally posted by griphon2

What YOU are spreading is a POV. It is not always correct, and not always HONEST.

Yet, you still are unable to deliver facts that discount "my POV"! Most my facts come from a very creditable source. I don't express my point of view when facts are needed.

Originally posted by griphon2
I've probably been in this business longer than you've been alive.

That's fine. Age is only but a number, knowledge carries with it no number.

Originally posted by griphon2
Don't ever condescend, especially to me. If the forum wishes me to leave, I will do it quickly and without remorse or ill feeling. This stuff is NOT difficult, contrary to popular belief. I just hope it's still guitar TRICKS.

I do not wish you to leave, I never meant you any disrespect, and I never even meant for this to be an arguement. But you continously call me a frankly, a liar. Yet you choose not to speak what the truth is yourself.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-13-2003 at 09:44 PM]

Originally posted by griphon2
I was hoping for support. Since I have none, I'll take you on.

Why do you need support?? If your a man and you truely believe what your saying, you should be able to stand on your own 2 feet. You shouldn't need someone to help you.

The fact that you want to take me on, I thinks that's quite immature of you. Im only 22 and I don't think of this as a war.

"Good music theory should always describe the way music sounds. One exception in traditional music theory is the augmented 6th chord. It sounds like a dominant 7th but is labeled a 6th chord because its spelling includes the interval of an augmented 6th. Adding to the confusion is that 3 geographical labels are often attached to these chords. The augmented 6th chord is usually found in 1st inversion."
Jazz theory resources by Bert Ligon

Ok, I now see where the confusion lies. I agree with the whole statement except that the augmented 6 chord sounds anything like the dominant 7 chord. The texture is the same in the chord, because of the clashing notes. 1 and b7 in the dominant, and #5 and 6 in the augmented. Both containing the same root and 3rd, but the augmented sound (#5) is still easy to catch. Maybe just for me, but it is. I can see where it can be confused with a untrained ear.

The Augmented 6 chords is found natural in both the harmonic and melodic minor keys.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-13-2003 at 11:37 PM]

The augmented 6th chords came about (theoretically)before the Dominant 7th was recognized as being a chord. So basically the Itaian, German,& French chords are nothing but dominant 7th chords inverted. Here's an example of the Italian 6th (the voice leading here is very important)

Key of C

IV Chord(1st inv) Italian 6 V
F F# G
C C B
A Ab G

the Italian 6th is nothing more than a Ab7 minus the 5th. It was given the name augmented 6th becuase of the interval between Ab & F#

Iknow that example didn't use the dominant inverted, but the 4 chord was. There is usually one inverted chord within the progression to achieve the chromatic voice leading. I'll try to give you another example.

Key of Eb


..ii(1st inv)..German 6th......I6
...C............C.............C
...F............F#............G
...Eb...........Eb............Eb
...Ab...........Ab............G

The German 6th is nothing more then a Ab7 with an enharmoic spelling (F#/Gb)Again it is named for the interval between Ab & F#

Thank you for explaining this, rather than "just saying I'm wrong". :) I was kind of getting that idea, but it still doesn't hold water with what I was saying that an Augmented 6 chord is not a dominant 7th chord. With what you wrote a Italian 6 chord is just a Ab7 (A#6). Without a 5th?? That's pretty much the interval that tells you if your playing an augmented chord or not. If you look at this, it actually all folds down into being just a simple major chord with a #6. I'll take the german 6th (which isn't how you described it, no 5th?? ;)) without the inversion.

Ab, C, Eb, F# - Ab#6 (yes..enharmonically (Gb) dominant 7th)

If you took out the 5th.

F#, Ab, C - F#dim(add2)

But my point is...

The Augmented 6 chord is an augmented triad with a 6th added to it.

Ab, C, E, F - Abaug6

The augmented triad is the key to understanding what I am saying. It's 100% accurate and is the modern way.

Ab, C, Eb - major
Ab, C, E - augmented

Maybe back before they had dominant 7th's, they used this way of describing the sound as a augmented sixth. But now the structure of chords is based on simple triads, then what comes after that is an extension. It looks to me that the french, german, and italian used the interval #6 as being augmented. How would they discribe a minor, or diminished chord? Let alone a augmented chord. Would it be an Ab augmented augmented 6 chord???? HAHAHA Simply, breaking the modern structure into a more primative state. The modern way is much much simpler.

First you take the root..Say its C.

Then figure out if it's major, minor, diminished, or augmented.

Say it's C augmented. Which would be the notes C, E, G#.

Say you wanted to add A to that for harmony purpose.

Now you have a Caug6 chord. C, E, G#, A.

The other way leaves you with no answer to whether it's a major, minor, augmented, or diminished chord. Which makes it more of an interval than a chord. Do they still use this chordal structure???

Maybe, I'm misunderstanding the use for this idea but to me it only complicates things and really causes alot of problems. Like I said before, I have no use for it.

Your right, an augmented 6th chord is an augmented triad with an added 6th to it, I don't think anybody is disputing that. These classical European chords were given there name for the interval that was constructed within the chromatic voice leading. In modern music the "classical augmented 6th chords" are nothing more then dominant 7ths constructed off the b6 interval of the scale resolving to the V chord ( F Ab7 G7) although this is more common in minor (F- Ab7 G7#5).

This is one of those things they like to drill into you in theory class in college, just like counter point and all the rules for it (no parallel 5th's or 4th's)There really is no relevance for this stuff in Modern music (regardless of style).

Now that we're all clear on this subject (hopefully), I think you and Griphon should apologize to each other -LOL-
*what happened to Griph? Did he get kicked off?

Originally posted by chris mood
The augmented 6th chords came about (theoretically)before the Dominant 7th was recognized as being a chord.

Obviously before, because they are not the same chord as I have been saying for the last couple of posts. I knew exactly what griphon was saying, or should I say the french, italian, and german. Now the modern chordal structure does have a Dominant 7th chord, there is no need for this idea for it rips the modern chordal structure apart. The dominant 7 chord is probably the most known chord in music, but let's just starting calling it an augmented 6 for now on...

Here's my quote shortly after he addressed the fact that it's strictly an F,G,I matter:

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
Well, as an american I not aware of and not concerned with the french, italian, and german ways. To me they couldn't have made it anymore confusing by doing that, I thought music was one language. If thats the way the french, italian, and germans see it. Kool, but they probably see other things differently too. Which would probably rival everything that the american system stands for and works for me (cause I'm american). To me, it is a waste to even pursue any interest in that. In the end, since we're both american it's a waste to even bring it up in the first place. No offense.

As you can see I never disagreed that the F, G, I had a different way and that the chord augmented 6 was not the dominant 7th to them. I simply stated there is no need for it, since the modern system is much more clear that the augmented 6 is NOT the dominant 7.

Originally posted by chris mood
So basically the Itaian, German,& French chords are nothing but dominant 7th chords inverted.

Yeah, and how does this help anyone. Telling them that there is no such thing as a minor, diminished, or augmented chord. With this idea, how would you ever know the difference if I said play a C augmented 6. Is it C, E, G, A#, or C, Eb, G, A#, or C, Eb, Gb, A#, or C, E, G#, A#??? Would this go for all chords?? How bout a C diminished 7 chord. Is it C, E, G, Bb, or C, Eb, G, Bb, or C, E, G#, Bb, or C, Eb, Gb, Bb?? Now how is this simple????? Obviously the F, G, I saw the error in their understanding of chords as this shows, that's why we have the chordal structure we have now. But now let's introduce this again because it is SOO SIMPLE! HAHAHA. :D

Yeah maybe if you first figured out a dominant 7th, then inverted it, then figured it out. This idea would work to some degree. :rolleyes: Again, how is this simple??? Why would you want to make it that much harder. An augmented 6 chord is a simple augmented chord (triad) with the 6th note as an extension.

Originally posted by chris mood
the Italian 6th is nothing more than a Ab7 minus the 5th. It was given the name augmented 6th becuase of the interval between Ab & F#

Looks to me like it's more of an interval based idea. They were clearly not talking about chords in the function when they say augmented. So any chord with a raised interval is augmented?? Honestly, and with all due respect to the F, G, and I. This is idea is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. The 'modern' chordal structure is much stronger for it directly tells you what you playing. There is no opening for guessing if the augmented 6 chord is major, minor, diminished, or augmented structurally.

A C augmented 6 as it stands in modern chordal structure. There is no other way to write it!!!

C, E, G# - simple augmented triad

add the 6 note from C ; count C, D, E, F, G, "A". So it's

C, E, G#, A - C augmented 6

Originally posted by chris mood
This is one of those things they like to drill into you in theory class in college, just like counter point and all the rules for it (no parallel 5th's or 4th's)There really is no relevance for this stuff in Modern music (regardless of style).

Something I do not agree with. I know in theory they will want you to completely understand it's points and counterpoints. But as you said yourself, there is no use of it in modern music. So why confuse people. I never went to college to learn any of this, yet I was still able to identify the problem in the first post. I said augmented by music definition directly points to the chord, not the raising of a note. Some may get enlightened by this, but I feel most will only be confused and music itself is a rather simple subject when you don't try to bunch the complete history of ideas into it.

Originally posted by chris mood
Now that we're all clear on this subject (hopefully), I think you and Griphon should apologize to each other -LOL-
*what happened to Griph? Did he get kicked off?

I was clear from the beginning, and I don't think I said anything disrespectful to griphon. If he feels that I have, I do apologize. I do not wish for him to leave this site for good, he was intelligent when it came to this stuff. I just wish he would pay attention to what I say, instead of calling me a liar. :mad: I only tried to make this a reasonable discussion rather than what it had became. I believe the only way to learn is to attack ideas, and not just say, "oh ok that must be right". And to learn to know when your wrong. I was clearly wrong about the F, G, and I idea, but I know it is obsolete, so I will not persue into it's understanding.

Let's start w/the names: Italian, German, & French. These names have nothing to do with where these chords came from, there is no heritage attached to these chords, there just names. Italian composers used German 6th chords, as well as polish composers and Russian composers, so stop trying to blame the French, Italians, and Germans for creating some stupid form of theory, Musicians of the Eoropean nations created these chords and the theory behind them.
Secondly, these chords are for compositional purposes. The rules for the usage,Identification, and resolution are very explicit and would be hard to explain in a single paragraph, you really should research this topic on your own, just for your own peice of mind. Like I said before, these chords are named "augmented 6th " for the chromatic interval that is created from the voice leading. That is where the misconception lies, becuase they are essentially Dominant 7th chords when anylized in a vertical fashion. But since the Dominant 7th chord was not yet recognized yet as a individual sound form they named them for the voice leading technique, because thats what they where utilizing these chords for anyway
Ex: Write out a iv-7 chord in the key of A- in 1st inversion, use this voicing (Bottom up) F C D A. Now write out a A- in 2nd inversion using this voicing; E C E A, now if you inserted a chord in between these two chords to connect them chromatically you would have; F C D# A. That is how the classical augment 6th chords came into existence. They were named after the interval created between the bass note F and the 3rd voice D# when chromatic voice leading was implied.

My advice to you would be to inestigate this topic farther so you have a clear understanding of this so that when some kid asks you "hey Notice, some kids were talking about G,I,& F augmented 6th chords, what are they?" You can offer a better explanation then "don't worry about it kid, it's all Bull Sh*t".
LOL

LOL. :D I don't know if I'd say that, but I'd probably just call on one of you guys to explain. ;) I know I don't grasp it as much as you guys do, but I do got the basic idea. I still won't call it an Augmented 6 chord, to me it's a major#6 chord. I'll explain more later.

Here's how it all works, as you explained chris.

In Am the iv-7 is : D, F, A, C
Inverted F, C, D, A

Now write out a A- in 2nd inversion using this voicing; E C E A,

An A minor is : A, C, E,(A),(E)
Inverted E, C, E, A

Layer them.
Dm7........F...C...D...A
interval...h...p...w...p
Am.........E...C...E...A
(inversion key: h -half step, w - whole step, p - perfect)

So what you want to do is change the whole step to a half step (chromatic). To do that you flatten the second E in the Am presented. Making it D#, then put it back to together with the Am along with adding a 6th (or borrow it from the Dm7):

Altered A minor (add6): A, C, D#, F.
Invert it again: F, A, C, D#.

Now you have a F augmented 6 chord as understood by the F, G, and I chordal views. Or in modern terms, "FM#6".

Enharmonic changing the D# to Eb makes it a F dominant 7 chord. With that said, you must look at the chord again, and serperate the spelling you came up with throughout the whole process and the one thats enharmonically altered. We have had this discussion before, just because a note can be changed enharmonically doesn't mean it can switch back and forth between correct names chord. There is a explaination of why, If you need it.

F, A, C, D# is NOT a F dominant 7 chord! It is is still a FM#6. The D from F is 6 notes, even you agreed. Augmented is used to discribe the "#6".

That's how I understand it. The augmented 6 chord is actually a major chord (triad) with a #6 extension. Since major is understood in most cases, and augmented is like saying a "#6". As you can see here:

F major chord: F, A, C
F German augmented 6 chord: F, A, C, D#
Today written as FM#6.

Since the "#6" is a rather odd extension and in most cases there is a "b7" instead, it is not as common as the "dominant 7 chord". They are closely related, but not the same. Sound and the way it is played on the guitar is the same but the function they have within a key is different. Again, understanding this saves alot of headaches when it comes to writting out chord progressions and then having to analyze them. Yeah, if you just getting ideas it's easier to write what is familiar to you, but analysis can be quite difficult with this error.

Ex. There is no Ebminor chord in the key B major. It would D#minor. Doesn't look confusing for this is a rather simply example but it can cause problems. Even more difficult is the misuse of naming chords, especially when inverted and then named something else. Like calling a inverted B diminished chord an F diminshed chord in the key of C major. There is no F diminished in the key of C major. If you are playing a F diminished in C, then it is a Bdiminished (second inversion). This is even more difficult if you plan out using modulation to get to another key. The problems will stem out quite a bit if not properly understood.

Today, saying augmented in place of #6 is invertingly saying the chord is made up of a Augmented triad with an extension 6. I'm guessing this is why this chord is not called an Augmented 6 today. Today those chords are completely different, even in correct chordal analysis are they different:

F german 6: F, A, C, D#
F aug. 6: F, A, C#, D
F dom. 7: F, A, C, Eb

Clearly these chords are NOT the same. If someone asked what a German 6 chord was, I would say it's a major chord with a #6. Putting augmented in there is just plain confusing. That might be it's theorotical name, but in todays music it is a major#6. It's construction is yes to chromatically voice the 2 chords together as you said above. It's function will work in the same way I pursume, As a chromatic passage. I believe the major#6 is more direct to the point, and it clearly doesn't discount the G aug. 6.

O.K.
The D# is labeled so in the German6 becuase altered notes resolve in the direction they are altered, so that's why we call it D# vrs Eb. So yes your point is valid (Maj #6). I am not going to argue this point w/you (maj#6 vrs Dom7). I did not invent this theory or coin the terms G I F augmented 6th, I am simply regurgitating classical theory. The augmented 6th chords are definetely not a high point of classiscal theory, and I think any theorytician will stand by that pt..However, they are an excepted form of reference/analyization and I would encourage you to investigate them farther before disputing there historical relevance to modern theory.
The quote I posted on this subject I think sums up quite well theoroticians view on classical augment 6th chords.

I am not disputing the existence or the history of the chord, Augmented 6. I think your taking what I said the wrong way, so I will clear it up. I would rather call it a Major #6 chord, if you call it an Augmented 6. That's kool, I am not trying to change anyone's mind on this fact. By it's sound, it is a Dominant 7 chord. Its use is rather different. From the beginning, it's been the only point I am trying to convey. Along with a clear view and understanding of the chord, which gets rid of all the confusion.

I believe "Augmented 6" doesn't clarify the chord enough, and it's doesn't give a decisive meaning. It's sounds like, An augmented chord with a 6 added to it. Clearly that's not the F, G, I augmented chords makeup. I hate writing this again and again but no one seems to understand my point. Which is the "Maj#6" is more direct and clearer in its chordal name. A major triad plus a #6. That spells out the chord very decisively, and doesn't change anything about the F, G, and I’s augmented chord. This is my opinion; the person who is reading this can choose which one is easier for them. I am not at all trying to force or change anyone POV.

It's easier for me because I don't have to worry about 2 completely different augmented 6 chords. I don't what to have to think of which one it actually is?

The augmented chord with a 6 extension.

-Or-

The major chord with a sharp (augmented) 6 extension.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-14-2003 at 02:39 PM]