Is this part of any scale?

What's up guys? I've been working on a little jam and I was wondering if these notes belonged to any scale cause I need to elaborate more on the song. [A - C# - G# - B] played in that order. And for future reference how do I figure out what scale I'm in?

looks like A major, but it could be a crap lot of scales. I dunno, to find what scale certain notes belong to. I guess you just got to understand how scales are made and if those notes are in that scale. that's your scale.

I would say definitely A maj, you have the 3rd and 7th listed. Here's the scale; A B C# D E F# G#

You could try an E Harmonic major scale:
EFG#ABC#DE, I think you'll like it.

It's also a chord and/or arpeggio. Ama7/9

Originally posted by u10ajf
You could try an E Harmonic major scale:
EFG#ABC#DE, I think you'll like it.

Thanks for the suggestion. E Harmonic major is definately a better fit for how I was playing those notes. Is there any way that you can tell what chords would fit within a given scale. In this case E Harmonic Major?

You can do it by hand: get a peice of lined paper and use the lines to mark out its intervals over the length of 2 octaves or so. Then make a similar strip with only the notes of the chord (don't bother with octaves of the same note, it doesn't matter). Then move the strip along the scale and see if you get perfect fit.
As a rule of thumb if a chord calls itself major (e.g. harmonic major) it has at least one major triad.

I don't understand this. Harmonic major is a Major scale with a b6. Double Harmonic major is a Major scale with a b2 and b6. What is this E F G# A B C# D E? This is 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7. A new one for me.

I got it. A mode of harmonic maj. Sorry.

so the actual scale then is A HARMONIC MAJOR.
yeah, that was throwing me too.

Yea, it threw me too. Right scale wrong function as presented.

sorry for the confusion guys. It would be very nice if only one mode of a scale was named and the rest were "2nd mode of X" or whatever. it's a pain when you think you've got a new scale only to find that it;s really only a mode of an existing one. there are so many bloody names and intervals to remember.

Originally posted by Leedogg
[A - C# - G# - B] played in that order.

What's funny is that the dewd never said anything about playing an F or D. So it wouldn't even be the mode you guys were considering (E F G# A B C# D E). Take the chord progression and add a 5th to it and you'll see. A5 (A-E), C#5 (C# - G#), here's where it probably wouldn't work... G#5 (G#-D#), B5 (B-F#). So unless the G#5 is G#dim and the B5 is a B7b5, it wouldn't work (A harmonic major included). With just the root notes it looks like A major (or any number of scales), but with what I added it now looks more like E major (A lydian, E harmonic major, ...). Really depends on what the chords were with the root, cause there's quite a few that could fit.

Originally posted by Leedogg
Is there any way that you can tell what chords would fit within a given scale. In this case E Harmonic Major?

u10ajf. Had a cool idea, and here's another one. First you take the E harmonic major, and you write out all the notes that are in the scale like this.

E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#

Start with the E, then skip the next note, then G#, skip the next note, then B. Write that down.

E, G#, B - Thats a major chord.

Then do the same starting with the next note, F#.

F# A C# - minor chord.

Do them all and you should have.

E, G#, B - major
F#, A, C# - minor
G#, B, D# - minor
A, C#, E - major
B, D#, F# - major
C#, E, G# - minor
D#, F#, A - diminished

This will tell you the simple triads of the chords that exist. Major, minor, diminished, and augmented. Everything else is an extension of that chord. Say if you added D# to the Emajor chord, you now have a EM7 chord.

Here's how you can tell if there major, minor, diminished or augmented.

E:---------:----------:---------:----------|
B:---------:----------:---------:----------|
G:--4------:---4------:--3------:--5-------|
D:--6-(9)--:---5-(9)--:--5-(8)--:--6-(10)--|
A:--7-(11)-:---7-(10)-:--7-(10)-:--7-(11)--|
E:---------:----------:---------:----------|
----Major--:---Minor--:--Dim.---:--Aug.

Here are the chord patterns of each type. The numbers in (*) are the same note as the played fret above, if you didn't realize. Hope this helps.

So if I wanted to play those notes as part of a Harmonic Scale, the Scale is called A Harmonic, but I gotta play a mode of that scale known as E Harmonic? And just so I'm clear, a mode is just a regular scale started off on one of the notes, right?

No, A harmonic major and E harmonic major are too different scales. E harmonic major is not a mode of A harmonic major. See here are the notes that consist in those 2.

A harmonic major: A, B, C#, D, E, F, G#
E harmonic major: E, F#, G#, A, B, C, D#

See how they are different. Now you can play the A harmonic major scale, starting with E. That's playing the 5th mode of the A harmonic major.

The notes would be: E, F, G#, A, B, C#, D.

As you can see the same notes as the A harmonic major, just starting with E. So yeah, that's how a mode is constructed, but it's function is different from the Root scale. The 5th mode (E) of the A harmonic minor would work well over a E7b9 chord, when the A harmonic major would NOT work over a A7b9. As you can see the root is the key. The reason is the clashing of 9th's between scale and chord. The 9th of a A harmonic major is B, when the chord A7b9, the 9th is Bb. Also, the 7th's are clashing too. When you look at the 5th mode (E) of the A harmonic minor, it works because the notes of the chord and scale are the same. A E7b9 chord is made up of E, G#, B, D, and F. All are found in the mode, so it works. Each scale/mode works with one or more chords, modes are very useful for these reasons.

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
That's playing the 5th mode of the A harmonic major.

The notes would be: E, F, G#, A, B, C#, D.

As you can see the same notes as the A harmonic major, just starting with E.

Does this mode have any special name? Like dorian or phrygian? I guess what I'm asking is what is the "official" name of starting on the 5th note of a scale. Is it determined by the scale or the note that is started on?

Harmonic major, harmonically, is weak or deficient. You will inevitalby modify the scale somehow. It is a tonal center scale. It would be difficult to write a tune with this scale without altering something.

Yeah. Here they are.

I - A - harmonic major
ii - B - dorian b5
iii - C# - phrygian b4
IV - D - lydian b3
V - E - mixolydian b2
vi - F - lydian augmented #2
viio - G# - locrian bb7

As you can see, they pretty much follow the basic modal system of the major scale. ii is dorian, iii is phrygian, and so on. The exception is the lydian augmented, the other name would be aeolian with a #2#4#5#6#7. As you can see that's harder to comprehend, an easier name is lydian augmented #2.

All major modal names follow this. All modes from the ii chord of a major scale are called dorian. So if your using the A harmonic major scale but starting on E, the modal way of saying it is, "Your playing the mixolydian of the A harmonic major".

As you notice in that particular scale, all the modal names are altered (b5, b6, whatever). This is because the Harmonic major scale is just an altered major scale. Matter of fact, so is the harmonic minor (altered minor scale). All it's modes are the same way, but with a twist. It will follow the minor circle of modes. Which is:

i - harmonic minor
II - locrian natural 6
III+ - Ionian #5
IV - dorian #4
V - phrygian major (or spanish phrygian)
VII - lydian #2
viio - altered scale bb7

As you can see it still follows the same pattern. Just rearranged in order opposed to the major. If you know the modes of the major scale, you would know that the major scale is also called ionian, and the minor is aeolian. And there's the order of modes.

From major: ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, and locrian.

From minor: aeolian, locrian, ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, locrian.

You were probably thinking it was extremely confusing. Hopefully you see now that it's not THAT confusing. ;)

The other Diatonic, melodic minor follows the same thing but it's modes are altered twice so most are given a different name. Here they are:

i - melodic minor
ii - dorian b2
III+ - lydian augmented
IV - lydian dominant
V - mixolydian b6 (or Hindu)
vio - locrian #2
viio - altered scale (also diminished whole tone)

There are other 7 tones scale, they will follow the same rule but are often referred to as other names, if you need those let me know. Other scale's like pentatonics, and exotic scales, they are just reffered to as "the 4th mode 'of whatever scale'". Hope that helps.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-11-2003 at 10:18 PM]

It's a dominant 7b9 scale in this context. That's another can of worms in this context. I don't know of any modal names, just it's relationship.

Originally posted by griphon2
Harmonic major, harmonically, is weak or deficient. You will inevitalby modify the scale somehow. It is a tonal center scale. It would be difficult to write a tune with this scale without altering something.

Yeah, I think the same thing. Probably the reason you don't hear much about it. The sixth is altered which to me is a big part of any major chord progression. The harmonic scale itself isn't particularly used for chordal composition, just like the harmonic minor. I don't rule against using it, but I find it is a hard scale to work with. Even for harmonizing over a major chord, it is almost useless. The b6 automatically conflicts with the 5th of the root chord. There's not even a major chord with a b6 in it. Alot of things in my mind go against this scale.

The only use I see with the scale is for a bass player, who would want to play a major 3rd below the root. Here a tab example.

C major
(guitar)
E:--0--
B:--1--
G:--0--
D:--2--
A:--3--
E:-----

(bass)
G:-----
D:-----
A:-----
E:--4--

That's about it, so I see very little use of this scale for a guitarist. Even for the bass it is very uncommon.