Distortion


jasim.hd
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Joined: 02/10/17
Posts: 82
jasim.hd
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Joined: 02/10/17
Posts: 82
03/05/2018 6:33 pm

Heya! How my favourite people are doing?

So I have distortion related question. Recently I have acquired (after a long reading/researching) a new MXR Fullbore Metal pedal, it works fine and sound good, but my problem is that I cannot get a regular distortion sound using it; the distortion is always “too much”, which means work s fine for Death/Doom/Black Metal, but not Thrash/Heavy Metal sound that I want to get.

For example: I can’t get Metallica (Let’s say Lightning, MOP or Black album) sound, or Megadeth (Countdown to Extinction), or some Pantera... etc. which is the regular Heavy/Thrash sound.

How can I get this tone out of it? I can’t seem to play Thrash or Heavy Metal without sounding “over kill” or “too much”

My Gear:

Schecter Damien Guitar (EMG pickups)[br] Orange Crush 35RT amp[br] MXR Fullbore Metal pedal[br] Ibanez TS9[br] Marshall Gu’vnor GV-2 plus

Help, please! And thank you so much in advance. :)


# 1
ChristopherSchlegel
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Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,360
ChristopherSchlegel
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03/05/2018 8:40 pm

Doing great, how are you?!

Originally Posted by: jasim.hd

So I have distortion related question. Recently I have acquired (after a long reading/researching) a new MXR Fullbore Metal pedal ...

[/quote]

I've not played one, but I have heard them & they are way too much gain for what you are trying to do.

[quote=jasim.hd]

For example: I can’t get Metallica (Let’s say Lightning, MOP or Black album) sound, or Megadeth (Countdown to Extinction), or some Pantera... etc. which is the regular Heavy/Thrash sound.

Early Metallica was either a Tube Screamer or RAT ProCo into a Marshall. Or Mesa Boogie Mark II or IV.

https://www.groundguitar.com/james-hetfield-guitars-and-gear/

Mustaine of Megadeath also used Marshalls. The Pantera guy used Randalls. Other than refining your palm muting technique, I think the real key to those early metal tones is using the smooth overdrive of a dimed master volume amp. The pedals were just icing on top to give the pre-amp a push.

Hope that helps!


Christopher Schlegel
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# 2
jasim.hd
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Joined: 02/10/17
Posts: 82
jasim.hd
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Joined: 02/10/17
Posts: 82
03/06/2018 7:38 pm
Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegel

Doing great, how are you?!

Originally Posted by: jasim.hd

So I have distortion related question. Recently I have acquired (after a long reading/researching) a new MXR Fullbore Metal pedal ...

[/quote]

I've not played one, but I have heard them & they are way too much gain for what you are trying to do.

[quote=jasim.hd]

For example: I can’t get Metallica (Let’s say Lightning, MOP or Black album) sound, or Megadeth (Countdown to Extinction), or some Pantera... etc. which is the regular Heavy/Thrash sound.

Early Metallica was either a Tube Screamer or RAT ProCo into a Marshall. Or Mesa Boogie Mark II or IV.

https://www.groundguitar.com/james-hetfield-guitars-and-gear/

Mustaine of Megadeath also used Marshalls. The Pantera guy used Randalls. Other than refining your palm muting technique, I think the real key to those early metal tones is using the smooth overdrive of a dimed master volume amp. The pedals were just icing on top to give the pre-amp a push.

Hope that helps!

Hi, Chris. I'm great as well, been busy with your lessons but couldn't be happier. :)

I figured as much, too much gain for what I'm trying to get. Now, thank you for your insight, but that leads me to two more questions:

1) Any tips on refining my palm muting technique?

2) If I get this correct: they just use overdrive over the dirty/gain channel in the amp itslelf? A touch of overdrive to gain/dirt?

I'm sorry, I'm still new to this whole sound and tone thing.

As always, thank you so much for this great advise.


# 3
JeffS65
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Joined: 10/07/08
Posts: 1,602
JeffS65
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03/07/2018 1:04 am

Here's a vid of the pedal and an Orange Micro. The tone at the outset is not as distorty. Link >> (note, by the end of the video, you may begin to hate the one riff he seems to play... ;) )

I've never been a total fan of actual distortion pedals. Overdrive pedals, yes. Distortion, no. From Stack Exchange:

"So what is the difference between a distortion and an overdrive? To put it simply, an overdrive pedal aims at simulating the creamy sound of an overdriven tube amp whereas a distortion does not try to simulate reality and usually offers more gain and is more aggressive."

A lot of good old school metal is overdriven and less so distorted. Not that this is an actual rule but; many producers and engineers will tell you that if you have the optimal tone you have when your sitting alone practicing, it is not the same tone that is used for recording.

Another thing to consider is that that tone you hear on the record is often undergirded by a bass line in the mix and multiple guitar tracks mixed to sound bigger than any one guitar track alone.

I'd also suggest that the first thing you want to do is ensure that whatever your tone goal, it needs to have clarity. Listen to Zakk Wilde on No Rest for the Wicked. Big and chunky but clear. If the buzziness of the distortion erases the clarity and articulation, the true tone is lost and you're creating buzz and not tone.

What's important is your AMP tone is setting the clarity and the distortion pedal is creating the sustain. Chris and I have joked of having the nearly the exact crappy amp/cab set up in the 80's. I mean, no self respecting rock star would admit to it...But great tone.[br][br]All this to say that you can't forget that the EQ channels on your amp are very powerful. With the garbage I had in the 80's, I learned that the amp and pedal are an ecosystem and both build your tone.[br][br]So...some randomn rambling tone thoughts.


# 4
jasim.hd
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Joined: 02/10/17
Posts: 82
jasim.hd
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Posts: 82
03/08/2018 6:12 pm

Hi, Jeff.

For some reason I can't quote you. First of all, thank you for your input in this, I see clearly your point through No Rest For the Wicked, the sound is just clear cut and that's that.

So it seems everyone agrees on overdriving is way better than distortion, and I can vaguely see why. But my question is, you recommend overdriving my amp's dirty channel? I've tried that but the sound serioulsy is just plain bad with a lot of noise!

Again, thank you so much for your thoughts!


# 5
fuzzb0x
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fuzzb0x
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Posts: 580
03/08/2018 6:58 pm
Originally Posted by: jasim.hd

Hi, Jeff.

For some reason I can't quote you. First of all, thank you for your input in this, I see clearly your point through No Rest For the Wicked, the sound is just clear cut and that's that.

So it seems everyone agrees on overdriving is way better than distortion, and I can vaguely see why. But my question is, you recommend overdriving my amp's dirty channel? I've tried that but the sound serioulsy is just plain bad with a lot of noise!

Again, thank you so much for your thoughts!

Personally I find that driving the gain/dirt channel works best on valve/tube amp better than on a solid state amp so that may be the reason it's not working for you.

I use a ProCo Rat myself and it's a great sounding pedal I've used it through both tube and solid state amps in the past and always been happy with the sounds I can get from it although the filter control on it works the opposite to the tone control on most pedals, the more you turn it up the more bass it brings in. If you are able to borrow one and try it through your Orange amp through the clean channel it should give you a good tone.


# 6
JeffS65
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Joined: 10/07/08
Posts: 1,602
JeffS65
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Posts: 1,602
03/08/2018 9:06 pm
Originally Posted by: jasim.hd

Hi, Jeff.

For some reason I can't quote you. First of all, thank you for your input in this, I see clearly your point through No Rest For the Wicked, the sound is just clear cut and that's that.

So it seems everyone agrees on overdriving is way better than distortion, and I can vaguely see why. But my question is, you recommend overdriving my amp's dirty channel? I've tried that but the sound serioulsy is just plain bad with a lot of noise!

Again, thank you so much for your thoughts!

I wouldn't necessarily just use your amp overdrive. My experience is that in smaller amps, it's nice enough but doesn't really give you the 'thing' you want.

I would actually still work with the pedal you've got. Just my thoughts but; your amp should be clean and functions as an EQ. So those lows, mids and highs are mostly controlled by the amp.[br][br]The problem with the Fullbore is that it's trying to do everything from the pedal. When you try to be all things to all people, you fail. That said, in my opinion, that's easy enough to overcome.

The key to finding good tone is how to start finding it. I'll be blunt, I could get good tone out of almost any amp. Not that I was super awesome. I just had some tricks to start with. A baseline.

1) Amp - Start with your Treble at 1 o'clock, Mid at 10 o'clock and Bass at Noon. With certainty, this will not be your final EQ. Also, toggled to clean.[br][br]2) Pedal - Level the EQ settings, all at noon, not pegged. Do not enable to scoop feature. Set your volume to noon. Your Gain to zero.

This is your 'ground zero'. You're trying to avoid, at first, the pedal coloring your tone.

3) Now, start chunking (palm mute chunking) an open low E string. It's clean so it's obviously not awesome yet. While chunking that E, slowly turn up the Gain.

4) You should have a sense of when it sounds overdriven and when it's overboard. When you're about at the desirable gain, chunk an E chord just to see how it sounds as a chord.

5) EQ tha AMP on that E chord and dial it in as close as you can to a good tone. You may not yet be there though but get close.

6) Play some other chords and include some opens like a D and an open G. This should give you an idea of the tone clarity (you know, that sparkle).

7) Adjust your amp EQ. Ignore everything you've read about scooping mids and this, that and the otrher thing. None of it matters through your rig. Your ear is your tone theory. Your amp EQ knobs could be just about any configuration. It doesn't matter. The amp setting I noted at first are a general starting point. A little bottom, a little extra high and scoop a little out of the mid..but still kinda flat. I do tend to adjust the High and the Low more than the mid. Low first, then High and then I place the mid.

7) Fuss and fuss and fuss...the above is to start the tone seeking process. The key is to dial on the amount of gain you need and then EQ around that.

What about the EQ on the pedal? Fine tuning. Think of it as the fine tuners on a Floyd Rose; first you tune, then you fine tune. That's why you set them to noon. Flat EQ from the pedal and now you can adjust to add or remove certain colors.

All that above is my guide on how I would start to dial in an amp pedal combo. And it's not like you can't use the other features on the pedal, like the scoop/frequency thing, but you have to set the baseline and add from there.


# 7
ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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Posts: 8,360
03/09/2018 3:43 am
Originally Posted by: jasim.hd

I figured as much, too much gain for what I'm trying to get. Now, thank you for your insight, but that leads me to two more questions:

1) Any tips on refining my palm muting technique?

[/quote]

It's a combination of a few things.

1. Finding just the right spot close to the bridge. Close to the bridge, but not too close. And not too far away either or else you get that choked sound. You are after a percussive, staccato sound that stops any chord from ringing too long.

2. Finding just the right amount of pressure to apply. Again, not too much or too little. But less is generally better.

3. Not too much gain! :)

Anders does a good job of dicsussing it in this tutorial.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1693

[quote=jasim.hd]

2) If I get this correct: they just use overdrive over the dirty/gain channel in the amp itslelf? A touch of overdrive to gain/dirt?

Yes. And a lot of the time, at least for rhythm guitar it is ALL just the gain stage on the amp. The only thing you really, truly need an overdrive pedal is for the compression to tighten up the sound a bit.

It's also invaluable on the higher lead notes because those strings are so thin & the string length is so short, but we're mostly talking rhythm guitar.

One other thing that might be missing here, yet unmentioned is VOLUME. Those Marshalls, Mes Boogies & Randalls were played LOUD. And it's really hard to substitute for that sheer power.

Don't worry about asking questions. That's what the forum is for. :)


Christopher Schlegel
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# 8
ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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03/09/2018 3:34 pm

Jeff again with the great advice! :)[br]

Originally Posted by: JeffS65[p]A lot of good old school metal is overdriven and less so distorted. Not that this is an actual rule but; many producers and engineers will tell you that if you have the optimal tone you have when your sitting alone practicing, it is not the same tone that is used for recording.

[br]Another thing to consider is that that tone you hear on the record is often undergirded by a bass line in the mix and multiple guitar tracks mixed to sound bigger than any one guitar track alone.

[/quote]

This is an extremely important point that isn't emphasized or explained enough.

I've seen it a zillion times. A student or guitarist is playing alone & has way too much bass, treble, gain & reverb/delay on the amp & effects. The problem is that they are trying to simulate what they heard on the original recording. But they don't know or realize that what they hear on that original recording is a combination of multiple layered guitars, bass fleshing out the low end, drums adding a percussive element & studio gloss (EQ shaping, mixing, reverb, etc.).

But since the student is just one person, they try to compensate by turning up the gain, bass, reverb, etc. in order to flesh out that sound. It's very instructive & often surprising to listen to some isolated guitar tracks in comparision to the finished product.

Original complete track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7blkui3nQc

Isolated guitar tracks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL95BpwjBfQ

Listen to that with good headphones or a decent stereo so you can hear the stereo panning separation. You can clearly hear several layers of guitars, some coming in & out of the mix just hitting a few chords for punch & emphasis. Notice how dry & bare bones it sounds compared to the final, finished product.

Ride The Lightning material sounds even drier & with less low end.

[br]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z-oJz0Ziug

[quote=JeffS65]

What's important is your AMP tone is setting the clarity and the distortion pedal is creating the sustain. Chris and I have joked of having the nearly the exact crappy amp/cab set up in the 80's. I mean, no self respecting rock star would admit to it...But great tone.[br]

[p]Ha! :) Yes, I remember that. Good stuff. Good advice too.


Christopher Schlegel
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# 9

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