putting it together

hey im struggling on writting my own songs , i can come up with a few decent riffs ( well i call em decent ) but i cant seem to link it all together to make a song , are there any videos or suggestions to help me with this?

Originally Posted by: mrshakes69hey im struggling on writting my own songs , i can come up with a few decent riffs ( well i call em decent ) but i cant seem to link it all together to make a song , are there any videos or suggestions to help me with this?

Songwriting is such an elusive animal. This site has some good songwriters on staff. I read somewhere that reading about how to song write is like reading about how to be in love...

I'm still learning what my weaknesses are in songwriting but I noticed that the biggest growth in 'not hating' what I've written is when I stopped trying to make a great song. Great songs happen, you can't make them. I also noticed that if I stopped trying so hard to make things amazing, I liked what I did better.

I guess I'm finding that if I stop working on individual riffs but on sections of a song, I like what I hear.

I don't know...Just a thought. I'm a mere novice so I don't know that I have much to give other than what I've noticed that I like recently.

Originally Posted by: JeffS65Songwriting is such an elusive animal. ... I read somewhere that reading about how to song write is like reading about how to be in love...

I think there are two primary reasons for that.

1. Good songwriting is a skill that requires an enormous amount of integration.

To write a song one has to create a melody that work well with some words. Lyrics are the result of a good series of phonetic linguistic sounds that work well with a series of notes, that sound good together in the first place.

This is why simple, banal, even nonsense lyrics can work perfectly, or even better in some cases than someone trying to force a well constructed sentence or even a poem into a series of notes.

The melody has to have a good harmonic foundation (chord changes, riff that matches the lyrics). And the various parts of the song have to match each other, not sounding too repetitious (or else how to tell the parts apart), but not sounding too varied (or how to tell if the parts work well together & belong in the same song together).

Aside from purely musical details, you have to consider the "story arc" of the song; it's dynamic flow. Should it go from soft to loud and back? Loud with a middle quiet section? Loud all the way through with changes in tempo for variety?

Songwriting requires enormous integration of many details into one auditory object.

2. Because songwriting requires the integration of so much info (melody, lyrics, harmony, rhythm, dovetailing parts, story arc, etc.), if you want to talk about songwriting, then to some degree you have to able to discuss music theory.

And in my experience, the last thing a beginning songwriter wants to do is to discuss music theory. They are too busy trying to express themselves with the limited knowledge they already have. :)

So, many people wind up learning how to write songs by imitating their favorite songwriters. This is a substitute for learning theory, because they are actually learning theoretical concepts, but don't have to explicitly name them. Instead, their mental process works like this:

My new song "starts simple" like "that one Beatles song". It has a chorus like that "other Stones song". I want to make a part after the solo where it will do that dramatic build up like "in that Prince song".

My suggestion is to learn some basic music theory. What is a key? What is a harmonic progression? How do chords work together? What is a melody? How does a melody suggest or interact with a chord progression?

At the same time, start analyzing your favorite songs. What are the parts, sections? What is the melody? What is the chord progression? Is the singer leaning on certain chord tones more than others? How does the melody fit with the phonetic sounds of the syllables of the words?

Write songs that mimic your favorite songs to get real-world practice at the skill. Then you have the best approach: theory & practice that supports each other like it is supposed to do.

I often work on many little parts over time. And then file them away mentally, score them on music paper in my idea notebooks, or record them. A certain melody that works well. A certain series of words that flows off the tongue easily and memorably.

Simultaneously, I work on big picture ideas. What an overall song or piece looks like from above, the overall sections, the story arc, dynamics, instrumentation that works together. Like a big algebra equation with a bunch of variables.

Gradually I work on filling in those blanks with the small details & pieces I already have worked out. Sometimes, I have a song or piece almost done, with one piece missing. So I have to explicitly work out that piece on the spot. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, and I have to try again the next day.

It helps to have a clear idea of what you are trying to do, what you are trying accomplish.

Hope this helps!

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelI think there are two primary reasons for that.

1. Good songwriting is a skill that requires an enormous amount of integration.

To write a song one has to create a melody that work well with some words. Lyrics are the result of a good series of phonetic linguistic sounds that work well with a series of notes, that sound good together in the first place.

This is why simple, banal, even nonsense lyrics can work perfectly, or even better in some cases than someone trying to force a well constructed sentence or even a poem into a series of notes.

The melody has to have a good harmonic foundation (chord changes, riff that matches the lyrics). And the various parts of the song have to match each other, not sounding too repetitious (or else how to tell the parts apart), but not sounding too varied (or how to tell if the parts work well together & belong in the same song together).

Aside from purely musical details, you have to consider the "story arc" of the song; it's dynamic flow. Should it go from soft to loud and back? Loud with a middle quiet section? Loud all the way through with changes in tempo for variety?

Songwriting requires enormous integration of many details into one auditory object.

2. Because songwriting requires the integration of so much info (melody, lyrics, harmony, rhythm, dovetailing parts, story arc, etc.), if you want to talk about songwriting, then to some degree you have to able to discuss music theory.

And in my experience, the last thing a beginning songwriter wants to do is to discuss music theory. They are too busy trying to express themselves with the limited knowledge they already have. :)

So, many people wind up learning how to write songs by imitating their favorite songwriters. This is a substitute for learning theory, because they are actually learning theoretical concepts, but don't have to explicitly name them. Instead, their mental process works like this:

My new song "starts simple" like "that one Beatles song". It has a chorus like that "other Stones song". I want to make a part after the solo where it will do that dramatic build up like "in that Prince song".

My suggestion is to learn some basic music theory. What is a key? What is a harmonic progression? How do chords work together? What is a melody? How does a melody suggest or interact with a chord progression?

At the same time, start analyzing your favorite songs. What are the parts, sections? What is the melody? What is the chord progression? Is the singer leaning on certain chord tones more than others? How does the melody fit with the phonetic sounds of the syllables of the words?

Write songs that mimic your favorite songs to get real-world practice at the skill. Then you have the best approach: theory & practice that supports each other like it is supposed to do.

I often work on many little parts over time. And then file them away mentally, score them on music paper in my idea notebooks, or record them. A certain melody that works well. A certain series of words that flows off the tongue easily and memorably.

Simultaneously, I work on big picture ideas. What an overall song or piece looks like from above, the overall sections, the story arc, dynamics, instrumentation that works together. Like a big algebra equation with a bunch of variables.

Gradually I work on filling in those blanks with the small details & pieces I already have worked out. Sometimes, I have a song or piece almost done, with one piece missing. So I have to explicitly work out that piece on the spot. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, and I have to try again the next day.

It helps to have a clear idea of what you are trying to do, what you are trying accomplish.

Hope this helps!

All great stuff and I agree 100%...but above and foremost, have fun!!

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelI think there are two primary reasons for that.

1. Good songwriting is a skill that requires an enormous amount of integration.

To write a song one has to create a melody that work well with some words. Lyrics are the result of a good series of phonetic linguistic sounds that work well with a series of notes, that sound good together in the first place.

This is why simple, banal, even nonsense lyrics can work perfectly, or even better in some cases than someone trying to force a well constructed sentence or even a poem into a series of notes.

The melody has to have a good harmonic foundation (chord changes, riff that matches the lyrics). And the various parts of the song have to match each other, not sounding too repetitious (or else how to tell the parts apart), but not sounding too varied (or how to tell if the parts work well together & belong in the same song together).

Aside from purely musical details, you have to consider the "story arc" of the song; it's dynamic flow. Should it go from soft to loud and back? Loud with a middle quiet section? Loud all the way through with changes in tempo for variety?

Songwriting requires enormous integration of many details into one auditory object.

2. Because songwriting requires the integration of so much info (melody, lyrics, harmony, rhythm, dovetailing parts, story arc, etc.), if you want to talk about songwriting, then to some degree you have to able to discuss music theory.

And in my experience, the last thing a beginning songwriter wants to do is to discuss music theory. They are too busy trying to express themselves with the limited knowledge they already have. :)

So, many people wind up learning how to write songs by imitating their favorite songwriters. This is a substitute for learning theory, because they are actually learning theoretical concepts, but don't have to explicitly name them. Instead, their mental process works like this:

My new song "starts simple" like "that one Beatles song". It has a chorus like that "other Stones song". I want to make a part after the solo where it will do that dramatic build up like "in that Prince song".

My suggestion is to learn some basic music theory. What is a key? What is a harmonic progression? How do chords work together? What is a melody? How does a melody suggest or interact with a chord progression?

At the same time, start analyzing your favorite songs. What are the parts, sections? What is the melody? What is the chord progression? Is the singer leaning on certain chord tones more than others? How does the melody fit with the phonetic sounds of the syllables of the words?

Write songs that mimic your favorite songs to get real-world practice at the skill. Then you have the best approach: theory & practice that supports each other like it is supposed to do.

I often work on many little parts over time. And then file them away mentally, score them on music paper in my idea notebooks, or record them. A certain melody that works well. A certain series of words that flows off the tongue easily and memorably.

Simultaneously, I work on big picture ideas. What an overall song or piece looks like from above, the overall sections, the story arc, dynamics, instrumentation that works together. Like a big algebra equation with a bunch of variables.

Gradually I work on filling in those blanks with the small details & pieces I already have worked out. Sometimes, I have a song or piece almost done, with one piece missing. So I have to explicitly work out that piece on the spot. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, and I have to try again the next day.

It helps to have a clear idea of what you are trying to do, what you are trying accomplish.

Hope this helps!

Great response. I do agree too. Like any skill, you still need the tools to be able to be successful at the art. While not specifically imperative to the art, since I assume that Blind Lemon Jefferson was not sitting down with his musical theory, I do think it just makes the ability to construct a song all that much easier still.

I think what is key to what you wrote is that it's not so much about the theory but that theory is a support to writing. Also that writing in and of itself is more about ideas.

One of the more key thing I think you said was:
"My suggestion is to learn some basic music theory. What is a key? What is a harmonic progression? How do chords work together? What is a melody? How does a melody suggest or interact with a chord progression?"

Kind of going back to the Blind Lemon Jefferson thing, while probably lacking in actual theory, understood the elements discussed above from being able to do some of the other things you mentioned. Being a student of an art form means, in this case, hearing the elements that comprise the form whether blues, jazz, classical, country etc. It's understanding the elements that make the forms unique.

The advantage here is that we are on the internet with a wealth of knowledge at our finger tips (..and cheap too!) and can actually fill our brains with that info. I don't need to spend a decade at the Dockery Plantation to understand the form, I can get the concepts in short order and spend the time working on them growing within my playing and becoming part of what I do.

In a manner of speaking, I think that's key. Some of it is just playing the form. Noodling of covers of songs and not only conceptually understanding but just being able to vibe through the changes others have created before you. It's like Muddy Waters from Son House, music is not created in a vacuum but as part of a continuum.

I think that's a bit of your point about writing in emulation of others. It develops those chops. In a way, in my previous post, that was somewhat my point. I've spent time such as in the 80's when I was 'serious' about it trying to be unbelievably original. Trying to chart my own path but all I did was write some very blah stuff. It's not until recently that I realize understanding the continuum of ideas is ok that I liked the vibe of stuff I was creating in my head.

So, I've rambled...

Glad you found value in my response. You are right, it contained ideas similiar to your earlier post.

Originally Posted by: JeffS65While not specifically imperative to the art, since I assume that Blind Lemon Jefferson was not sitting down with his musical theory, I do think it just makes the ability to construct a song all that much easier still.
[/quote]
I want to use this as a springboard to another point.

Being unaware of theory doesn't make it go away or irrelevant. It simply means that the player doesn't necessarily know how to conceptually identify what he is doing. In order to play you have to know & perform the physical motions and listen carefully. But, it is not absolutely necessary to know "what all those things are called" on an advanced conceptual level and how they relate to one another.

However, on a deeper level, without someone first understanding the theory behind how acoustics, music and musical instruments work in the first place, the person that "can play but doesn't understand the theory" wouldn't be able to do what they do at all.

The person that designed & built the musical instrument had to grasp these things or else the instrument would not function.

Sometimes I hear players talk about their disdain for, or disinterest in "theory" & "the rules". And you know what? Fine, if you can find value in playing music without knowing theory, no problem.

But, let's get a few things absolutely straight.

1. The western musical system of diatonic/chromatic notes is an organized, integrated system.

2. This system conforms to the laws of acoustics (a subdivision of physics) and the physiology of the human ear, thanks to people with enough genius to discover those laws.

3. The only reason guitars (and other musical instruments) even exist and function is that people build them to conform to this organized, integrated system that is music.

Therefore, we are not talking about "arbitrary social conventions" invented by some dead, European white guys that were trying to "oppress us" by making us follow their "boring rules of music".

We are talking about a science that identifies certain laws of nature and makes use of them in a very specific, highly organized manner.

Ultimately, you can play anything you want. But only by approaching it from the conceptual perspective will you be able to understand how it all works. And eventually, to be able to identify what you hear regardless of whether it is in key or out; a "proper", consonant mode or a completely dissonant one relative to the chords you are playing over.

It is valuable to have a systematic method for mentally organizing the sounds that are possible into recognizable categories for future reference.

Originally Posted by: JeffS65
Kind of going back to the Blind Lemon Jefferson thing, while probably lacking in actual theory, understood the elements discussed above from being able to do some of the other things you mentioned. Being a student of an art form means, in this case, hearing the elements that comprise the form whether blues, jazz, classical, country etc. It's understanding the elements that make the forms unique.[/quote]
Very well said!
[QUOTE=JeffS65]
The advantage here is that we are on the internet with a wealth of knowledge at our finger tips (..and cheap too!) and can actually fill our brains with that info. I don't need to spend a decade at the Dockery Plantation to understand the form, I can get the concepts in short order and spend the time working on them growing within my playing and becoming part of what I do.

Another great point! This is precisely why a 12 year old little girl can sing a heartbreak ballad without having gone through it herself yet. Or a 6 year old boy can play a breathtaking Paganini violin caprice. It's not magic. It's the ability to grasp, conceptualize & mimic faster & more efficiently.
[QUOTE=JeffS65]
I've spent time such as in the 80's when I was 'serious' about it trying to be unbelievably original. Trying to chart my own path but all I did was write some very blah stuff. It's not until recently that I realize understanding the continuum of ideas is ok that I liked the vibe of stuff I was creating in my head.

I've written hundreds (1,000s?) of pieces of music. It's taken years to create a handfull that are truly, strikingly original. It's not easy. It takes a lot of work, practice, serious thought & effort.

Thanks for your post!

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelSometimes I hear players talk about their disdain for, or disinterest in "theory" & "the rules". And you know what? Fine, if you can find value in playing music without knowing theory, no problem.

My problem has never been a lack of desire to learn about theory etc, its always been that because music comes to me naturally by ear, sticking to an intermediate level hasn't required much practice.

I've played guitar for nearly 20 years right now, started a few bands that failed but now have had a band together for just over 4 years, all without any actual technical knowledge of musical theory. (I know the scales simply because the notes sound right etc...)

For example, I just went through your Circle of Fifths tutorial and it was awesome, I learned so much so fast and I know I'll reference to it many times again. Now I know the theory behind The Beatles song 'Yesterday'. I've always played by ear, its just something I've been able to do.. but only up to a point..

I play chords that I have no idea how to explain, sometimes while playing around with a lick one of my band mates will ask me "how do you even conceptualize the music that you write"... I truly don't know, but I do know that lack of knowledge of music theory is starting to become frustrating for me, so I've decided to learn.

As far as the current topic is concerned, I've been writing songs for a long time. I think that even the simple theory that I've learned so far on this site, and what I will learn in the future, will contribute immeasurably to my songwriting skills and in turn will help improve my band.

Whatever you do and whatever you write; Own it! :eek:

Hi, I'm new to songwriting and I wanted to write a song about a true story, about my father. I put the lyrics together and now I find myself struggling to get it rolling off the tongue and putting chords to it. The C and Am (I can only play very simple chords) seem to work but I'm having trouble about where I put them.

Here's my song lyric in case anyone's interested in commenting:


Forgotten Soldier
=============


C Am
Conscripted before he could vote
C Am
He was sent abroad in a boat
C Am
To save once enemies from the Soviets
C Am
The dire thoughts he had were copious



Forgotten soldier

With a black patch and red circle

Upon the side of his shoulder

Nobody would look him in the eye

He asked the colonel who said

They're looking at a man who's going to die



Quick march

By your left

By your left

Left right left

Left right left



Forgotten Soldier

With a black patch and red circle

Upon the side of his shoulder



He was demobbed in Berlin

Where his thoughts were dim

He marched, he walked, he crawled

To the Hook of Holland

Back to his young wife and son

Returning to Britain the man he once was

Others were in pieces, he was one



Forgotten Soldier

With a black patch and red circle

Upon the side of his shoulder

[END]


Thanks to anyone who replies. By the way I thought I'd mention I can't get Johnny Cash off my mind and I am trying to emulate his style with rhythm, since it will probably be years of practise since I can do the boom-chick and play the other chords he could.

PS. The C and Am chords are not in their proper positions here, but I thought I'd just leave it that way.

I've written a couple of other songs, one with alternate versions ("Dreams") and "I'd Follow You" if anyone has any honest opinion they'd like to share.

Dreams #1:
========

It doesn't matter what people do
It doesn't matter what people say
When I dream of you I drift away
Everybody's got to have a dream
And from you my dreams will never sway

Somewhere in my heart
You're always there
You're always welcome to me
You've got all my love
And in my heart you'll always be
Love, that peaceful dove

Every day and all night
I dream sweet dreams of you
You're always in my mind's sight
And I hope you have dreams of me too


Dreams #2:
========

Everyone's got to dream
And my dreams are of you
And when you dream
I hope you dream of me too

I'm so lonely these cold winter days
I can barely get rid of my blues
All I can do is dream in colours and hues
To get rid of my hurting blues

Will you come to visit me soon
I'll sing you a love song tune
Remember those days we were together
We thought those days would last forever


Dreams #3
========

When I dream
I can't help getting the blues
Sweet colours and hues
Will you dream of me too

It's my dreams
That get me down
When you're not around
These blues I've always found

My sweet valentine
Won't you say you're mine
I'd give my all for you
And shake of these blues


I'd Follow You
==========

I'd follow you
Wherever you go
Wherever you stay
I'd sit and pray

Please don't go
I'd just follow you
Wherever you go
I'd follow you

I love you like a burning flame
I hope you feel the same
But I got a feeling
A sinking feeling of no
And you'd get up and go

Still I'd follow you
Wherever it takes us
I'd follow you
I'd take that big bus
And I'd trail behind you