Border debate

Hmmm, no one's talking about the biggest issue on the news lately...that being the 2 legislative bills (on immigration) in Congress sparking the protests?
This is an especially important topic for my state, but should be for us all. Health care, education, taxes, and the economy can all be linked to this issue with American citizens getting the short end of the stick. Now the p.c. term has become "undocumented workers"...c'mon, now illegal aliens is too harsh? On a related note: Houston recently started a pro soccer team and went through the process throughout the last year of voting for it's name. So the process yielded the name of "1836", the year of our state independence and founding of the city, alongwith a logo of Sam Houston on horseback. Not the greatest sports team name ever, true, but it won the vote, and that's what was picked...ok fine. No, not fine. Too offensive to the Mexican population! The year in question and picture of Houston supposedly conjured imagery of him slaughtering 1000's of Mexican soldiers (which I don't remember ever happening), so they changed the name of the team to the Houston Dynamo. I'm just getting a lil fed up with this p.c. double standard crap. Sorry for my mini-rant, but any comments?

I really havent been keeping up with politics as much as I used to cuz I dont watch much tv. Can you brief me as to what these bills have proposed?

Originally Posted by: LA Times websiteWhat has the Republican-controlled House done?

In December, the House, run by conservative Republicans, passed a bill that would make being in the United States a felony — with harsher penalties than a civil violation. The bill requires employers to verify that their workers are legally in the United States or face civil and criminal penalties. In addition, it establishes mandatory sentences for smuggling illegal immigrants.

The proposal does not include a guest worker program for those in the United States.

It does call for tighter borders and requires the construction of two-layer fences along 700 miles of the 2,000-mile border between Mexico and the United States.

What is happening in the Senate?

The Judiciary Committee has approved a bill and has sent it to the floor of the Senate, which will begin to debate the merits.

This bill does have guest worker provisions. Incoming foreign workers would have to get temporary work visas and could earn permanent legal residence after six years.

It also tries to deal with illegal immigrants who were in the United States before 2004 by allowing them to continue to work for six years if they pay a $1,000 fine and get a background check that shows they engaged in no criminal activities. They would become eligible for permanent residence upon paying another $1,000 fine, any back taxes and having learned English.

Once they are permanent residents, they could use existing laws to become citizens.

Is this an amnesty?

The opponents say yes because it eventually could mean that those who entered the United States illegally could become citizens without having to go back to their country of origin. Proponents deny that it is an amnesty because the foreign workers would have to earn their citizenship.

Does the Senate bill deal with borders?

Yes. It would add up to 14,000 Border Patrol agents by 2011 to the force of 11,300 agents. It rejects the House plan for fences, but calls for more screening by unmanned vehicles, cameras and sensors on the U.S.-Canada border.

So basically neither one has passed through the other side of Congress. Both have their problems and neither is a solution, but at least it's being worked on.

Im kinda at the forefront of this thing here in Arizona. I dont think building a fence across the border is the solution. Plenty of people immigrate to the US from other countries every day legally. They should stop beating around the bush and just say "we dont want MEXICANS jumping the border to the US since their country sucks". Because they obviously arent talking about Canadians in this issue (except maybe a few of you ;) ).

Originally Posted by: R. ShackleferdI'm just getting a lil fed up with this p.c. double standard crap.

What double standard?

Originally Posted by: SPLWhat double standard?

Perhaps double standard wasn't the best phrase, but for example, this last weekend a group of a Christians went to San Francisco to demonstrate for general Christian beliefs and morality. This was the same weekend as the huge march of 500,000 for immigration. This Christian group numbered less than 200, but a member of the city council there called the group dispicable and told them they were not welcome while he apparently had no problem at all with the much larger political protest. This is the city that prides itself on being the most tolerant city in America?

I can't help but think that the native American Indians aught to have more of a say here !!

Originally Posted by: R. ShackleferdHmmm, no one's talking about the biggest issue on the news lately...

Well... it's being talked about now.

This is a very hot-button issue for me, I dont live near the border, but as an American, it infuriates (sp?) me to think of all these people coming in illegally, and whats worse, it being so easy for them. I have seen the estimated statistics on how many millions of dollars it is costing Americans and all the jobs, and it is staggering, I hope this bill passes and becomes law, I think building the 700 mile fence or however long it might be will help and I say why not. And it should be electrically charged, (not really but that would be kinda neat.)

I agree with you Shackleferd. It really horrible how American citizens are getting the worst of it when get got damn illegals stealing money, and sending it out of the country to their old one. Their not helping the country and creating political contoversy. I know that most Mexicans will be totally opposed to this post, but it has to be seen not a racial issue, but a political one. Its not good for them to come into our country, and get special privleges.

And if you look at the protesters, their all in their early 20's. They dont know anything about whats goin on, just plain nationalism. They just follow the crowd. They were flooding the highways and were being escorted by cops looking like thugs. Nationalism is good theoretically, but not when its not your legal country and you have been living without contributing to it.

Originally Posted by: alucard0941...And if you look at the protesters, their all in their early 20's. They dont know anything about whats goin on, just plain nationalism. They just follow the crowd...

That reminds me of a local newsclip I saw. They interviewed a schoolgirl who participated in a walkout. She said, "my parents are here illegally, but they're not criminals." That made me smile.

As for the legislations, I disagree with making it a felony. Then what, are we going to put them all in jail and foot the bill for that too? In the Senate bill the other stuff is just for show. $1000 fine and back taxes: yeah right, they'll never get that money. Learn English: nice touch, but again won't happen. The parts from either bill that will work (in my opinion) are those that make life here less desirable for them to come here to begin with, by fining employers who hire illegals, and cutting off all Federal and State programs that aid if you don't have documentation, short of life threatening emergency room care. And of course the extra border patrol couldn't hurt. I'm not sure about the fence. It might work for certain high traffic areas as long as they don't just end up digging a tunnel under it.

I mean no disrespect towards anyone or any group of people when I say this, but I think if we cracked a couple of em in the ass with some buck shot, theyd get the picture reaalllllll quick.

Originally Posted by: stacknyI mean no disrespect towards anyone or any group of people when I say this, but I think if we cracked a couple of em in the ass with some buck shot, theyd get the picture reaalllllll quick.

It’s laughable to me when I hear comments like “keep them out of our country.” First of all I would think just being thankful to live and enjoy mother nature as a guest and not try to claim it. Only if we didn’t have boarders we would have a bigger melting pot and maybe less terrorism. I don’t know maybe other countries will be more acceptable to our way of living and same goes for us. I know I know, seems like a radical view but I just thought I would put that out there. But that is crap when I hear people say that immigrants are taking away our jobs and money. I mean they do the most undesirable jobs that involve hard labor. Plus they get very low pay and even lower than minimum wage. Now who is getting screwed here? It’s not like they can report it cause they will just get deported. Sucks for them but it provides cheap labor for employers and they thrive in business making the economy better. They come to America to try to better themselves and can you blame them! Wouldn’t you do the same? I know I would. Without them food production would go down. You might say that if farmers didn’t hire illegals then there would be more work for Americans. No ones (at least fewer) going to go out there and work in that hot sun all day picking whatever. I know I’m not. Lets just say that immigrants did leave “our country” and food production went way down. Then what will we do? Are we going to realize that we needed them and invite them back into "our country" after kicking them out. How disrespectful. Then immigrants will realize that America needs them and that they are being taken advantage of by being used as cheap labor. Then they will start demanding honest pay, well at least minimum wage. Then businesses wont thrive as good as they did as before when they were taken advantage of them. Yes I know that sounds sad but it’s true.

Hm... I grew up in Jasper County, Indiana, USA... Which is the highest yielding county in the country... To those not familiar with farming terms, it means that per acre they produced more agricultural goods than any other county in the USA. So needless to say agriculture is a big part of my background. My grandfather was a farmer and my brother just recently took over his farm... They do everything themselves. They've never highered any immigrants to do any sort of work them. If they need labor they pay young high school students to do it. But the farms that higher immigrants are the corporate farms that just want the workers for a short period of timeto do a certain task. They hire them and fire them when they're done with them. Sounds pretty shady... but that's the way it is. I've heard a saying "The rich get richer until the poor get educated". That saying is so true. Immigrants come to the US and they lack the basic skills to do most jobs. It's not that they don't possess the potential to do a certain job. They just don't presently possess the skills neccessary. Why should an underqualified person get a job just because they'll work for less? Thats the problem that we as US citizens run into.

Then you have people that say... "Well, these immigrants are taking jobs that homeless people could use to turn their lives around." Homeless people are homeless because most of them aren't willing to go out and get a job. The ones that want jobs can find them. I do have pity on the homeless people that get a raw deal in some way or another and are left out on the streets... but most are their because of the choices that they've made. Immigrants aren't taking any homeless peoples jobs.

I welcome any one into this country. But it is frustrating that we have to change so much to accomodate them. They're in our country and they should have to adapt to us. Not the other way around. I predict that spanish will be tought in elementary schools as a mandatory course within the next 10 years... Becuase of the rise in the Latin occupancy in this country. Our native language is English and if I have to learn a different language just so I can communicate in my own counrty... somethings wrong...

Originally Posted by: stacknyI mean no disrespect towards anyone or any group of people when I say this, but I think if we cracked a couple of em in the ass with some buck shot, theyd get the picture reaalllllll quick.

Shooting immigrants in the ass is your solution to everything.

Originally Posted by: earthman buckShooting immigrants in the ass is your solution to everything.

More or less.

Originally Posted by: R. ShackleferdThat reminds me of a local newsclip I saw. They interviewed a schoolgirl who participated in a walkout. She said, "my parents are here illegally, but they're not criminals." That made me smile.

Exactly. So many highschoolers are skipping school to protest, but are only doin to to miss school... :rolleyes: and dont understand their cause.

What a selfish culture.

Since I may not be here I'll add this. When was the last time any of you were directly affected by immigration. Besides the fact that that's how 90% of us landed here anyway? Don't say taxes cuz last I remember taxes were lowered.