Why Gb??


MSF06
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MSF06
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01/15/2006 3:14 am
I was just sittin around thinking about the notes on the fretboard and started to wonder, "Why do the note go F, F#/Gb, G, etc, etc, etc?"

Can someone explain why there are two names for some of the note on the same fret? Why would you write Gb rather then just say F#? I do not see it making a difference since the notes are technically the same, only a different name.

My theory has not been that great and I am now stating to get into it and this question has been buggin' me.

MSF
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Jolly McJollyson
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01/15/2006 3:26 am
Originally Posted by: MSF06I was just sittin around thinking about the notes on the fretboard and started to wonder, "Why do the note go F, F#/Gb, G, etc, etc, etc?"

Can someone explain why there are two names for some of the note on the same fret? Why would you write Gb rather then just say F#? I do not see it making a difference since the notes are technically the same, only a different name.

My theory has not been that great and I am now stating to get into it and this question has been buggin' me.

MSF

Db major.

Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-C

That's when you'd write a Gb.

Or, let's say you had an Ebminor chord

Eb-Gb-Bb

You can't say "Eb-F#-Bb"

Eb to F# is an augmented second, not a diminished third. I know people will say they're the same, but they're not. These rules exist for a reason.
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magicninja
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01/15/2006 3:32 am
Hey Jolly got me thinking about intervals in another thread and now I can completely understand that part of it.
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MSF06
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01/15/2006 4:43 am
Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollyson...

Eb to F# is an augmented second, not a diminished third. I know people will say they're the same, but they're not. These rules exist for a reason.



Thanks for the response.

I do know the rules and mainly I was thinking out loud. Let me put it this way, why would it different if I play a Db major and say F# instead of Gb would it be different? You still need to move a finger to the same fret and you still get the same sound. I understand that it is an augmented second, not a diminished third, I just wonder WHY it is what it is :D

I did a search for the rules to try and find out but nothing showed up. If you know of a good book or even a web site that explains the rules rather then just letting you know what the rules are I would appreciate it if you could let me know.

I have a problem of trying to over analyze things at times and this is one of those things.

MSF
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01/15/2006 10:01 am
I'll try to see if I explain it right this way. I'm not great at theory. If I am wrong or if there is an easier way to explain it Jolly will be here. I just wanna take a crack at it to see if I'm right.

Let's take a C Major Scale

C D E F G A B C

If I Augment the second (D) to D# It would be an enharmonic note to Eb.

Now I don't know my chord construction at all :o (Jolly you can help me with this later?) so I will generalize.


You usually make chords out of 1st (C) a third (E) and a Fifth (G).

If you want an augmented second chord you woud move the second up a half step D->D# so It would C D# G

Technically D#=Eb but you can't write Eb in as an augmented second becuase writing an E would imply that you are flattening a third. In turn You Can't write D# in as Eb in a chord formula for a minor third because D# is implying a move up from the second.

It's for the sake of using presice, exact, correct terminology when breaking down the theory behind the music. I know this probably isn't the perfect explaination but it's how I think it works. If I'm wrong Jolly, swap out my wrong words for the right ones. :D
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Jolly McJollyson
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01/15/2006 7:57 pm
Originally Posted by: MSF06Thanks for the response.

I do know the rules and mainly I was thinking out loud. Let me put it this way, why would it different if I play a Db major and say F# instead of Gb would it be different? You still need to move a finger to the same fret and you still get the same sound. I understand that it is an augmented second, not a diminished third, I just wonder WHY it is what it is :D

I did a search for the rules to try and find out but nothing showed up. If you know of a good book or even a web site that explains the rules rather then just letting you know what the rules are I would appreciate it if you could let me know.

I have a problem of trying to over analyze things at times and this is one of those things.

MSF

Well, let's look at it this way. Any form of E to any form of F is some kind of second. E-F 1-2. Any form of E to any form of G is some kind of third: E-F-G 1-2-3. The difference between an augmented second and a minor third lies in functionality. An augmented second will be seen in fully diminished leading tone seventh chords such as one would find in a lot of classical/romantic/impressionistic music among the other styles that get lumped in "classical." I misspoke earlier when I said "diminished third," I meant "minor third."
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01/16/2006 1:00 am
Was I right with what I said?
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01/16/2006 3:02 am
Originally Posted by: magicninjaWas I right with what I said?

Yeah, I just skimmed it but it looks right.
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pure
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01/16/2006 4:10 am
Originally Posted by: MSF06I was just sittin around thinking about the notes on the fretboard and started to wonder, "Why do the note go F, F#/Gb, G, etc, etc, etc?"

Can someone explain why there are two names for some of the note on the same fret? Why would you write Gb rather then just say F#? I do not see it making a difference since the notes are technically the same, only a different name.

My theory has not been that great and I am now stating to get into it and this question has been buggin' me.

MSF



okay lets take a close look at that E string.

(note)b means that note is flat, and (note)# means that note is sharp.

there are 2 ways to say the notes on that string:
E-F-F#-G-G#-A-A#-B-C-C#-D-D#-E

and

E-F-Gb-G-Ab-A-Bb-B-C-Db-D-Eb-E

there is no difference in the sharps and flats.

F# = Gb because...

if you have F, and you go one step higher, you still have an F sound, but its Sharper. it sounds between how an F would sound and how a G would sound.

also, if you have G, and you go one step lower, you still have the G sound, but its flatter,or lower, if you know what i mean. it sounds as if its between F and G so its called an F# and a G flat. you can say F#, or you can say G flat, it doesnt make any difference because F# = Gb (Flat). A high F = a low G.

sharps and flats are the same thing really, it just matters what note you think of it as. F or G, G or A, A or B, C or D, D or E.

the only notes that dont have #/b between them are E and F, B and c.

hope this helped, i made it as simple as possible. you should study a
little more *music theory* (like actually learning to read notation instead of
tab) and it will all make sense. music theory was originally meant for notation
for it is best taught that way.

Originally Posted by: schmangeugly fat chicks
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MSF06
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01/16/2006 7:36 am
Originally Posted by: pure...hope this helped, i made it as simple as possible. you should study a
little more *music theory* (like actually learning to read notation instead of
tab) and it will all make sense. music theory was originally meant for notation
for it is best taught that way.


Funny thing is I do read notation (ever since I played trumpet in Jr. High) and have a bit** of a time with tabs :D Just never bothered studing theory or the reasoning behind it.

I also see it as being the same (as pure said) but different if you look at it as Jolly stated(good explanation Jolly, thanks).

Funny thing is, most of my guitar playing has been classical even without knowing the theory behind it. I basically have just played by ear or what I liked the sound of. Now I am trying to learn the theory behind the music (as well as learning to use a pick).

Still, if anyone could recomend a good book or two with all or as much as possible info on music theory I would appreciate it. I could just search for something but I prefer to go with a recomendation rathen then a crapshot that a book will be good.

Thanks for the replys.

MSF
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01/16/2006 12:34 pm
Originally Posted by: magicninjaIt's for the sake of using precise, exact, correct terminology when breaking down the theory behind the music. I know this probably isn't the perfect explaination but it's how I think it works. If I'm wrong Jolly, swap out my wrong words for the right ones. :D

More or less that's the point of some of these rules. They're meant for clarity and ease in interpretation of a piece of music, especially the rules about enharmonic chromatic passing tones.
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pure
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01/16/2006 6:27 pm
Originally Posted by: MSF06Funny thing is I do read notation (ever since I played trumpet in Jr. High) and have a bit** of a time with tabs :D Just never bothered studing theory or the reasoning behind it.

I also see it as being the same (as pure said) but different if you look at it as Jolly stated(good explanation Jolly, thanks).

Funny thing is, most of my guitar playing has been classical even without knowing the theory behind it. I basically have just played by ear or what I liked the sound of. Now I am trying to learn the theory behind the music (as well as learning to use a pick).

Still, if anyone could recomend a good book or two with all or as much as possible info on music theory I would appreciate it. I could just search for something but I prefer to go with a recomendation rathen then a crapshot that a book will be good.

Thanks for the replys.

MSF



im sorry if i offended you by thinking you didnt know how to read notation.
anyway, BEFORE buying a book, go to your library and look for GUITAR METHOD or MUSIC THEORY or something like that. check those out and see if they help you before spending cash on a book.

ive read alot of GUITAR METHOD books and i've they all helped alot. check those out and maybe even get yourself a copy to keep.
Originally Posted by: schmangeugly fat chicks
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MSF06
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01/16/2006 11:56 pm
Originally Posted by: pureim sorry if i offended you by thinking you didnt know how to read notation.
anyway, BEFORE buying a book, go to your library and look for GUITAR METHOD or MUSIC THEORY or something like that. check those out and see if they help you before spending cash on a book.

ive read alot of GUITAR METHOD books and i've they all helped alot. check those out and maybe even get yourself a copy to keep.


No offense at all. Even if you were trying to offend me...this is the net ;)
I will give the books at the library a look through and see what they have. Thanks

MSF
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pure
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01/17/2006 12:14 am
no problem. good luck.
Originally Posted by: schmangeugly fat chicks
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noticingthemistake
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01/17/2006 3:56 pm
Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonWell, let's look at it this way. Any form of E to any form of F is some kind of second. E-F 1-2. Any form of E to any form of G is some kind of third: E-F-G 1-2-3. The difference between an augmented second and a minor third lies in functionality. An augmented second will be seen in fully diminished leading tone seventh chords such as one would find in a lot of classical/romantic/impressionistic music among the other styles that get lumped in "classical." I misspoke earlier when I said "diminished third," I meant "minor third."


Whoa! :eek: Spoken like a schooled musician, there Jolly. Learned alot in a short time. Nice. :)
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01/18/2006 3:18 am
Originally Posted by: noticingthemistakeWhoa! :eek: Spoken like a schooled musician, there Jolly. Learned alot in a short time. Nice. :)

Glad I earned the trust of my co-moderator. Hey, I'm working on a metal guitar fugue right now, and if you'd like to look at it when I'm finished it's gonna be funny (not smart enough to make it anything else haha).
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01/18/2006 7:11 am
Originally Posted by: magicninjaNow I don't know my chord construction at all :o (Jolly you can help me with this later?)

well, if you know your intervals, then it's pretty simple. (let's just hope I remember this right)
Major chord = Major 3rd + minor 3rd
minor chord = minor 3rd + Major 3rd
diminished chord = minor 3rd + minor 3rd
augmented chord = Major 3rd + Major 3rd

with a minor third being 3 half steps(1 1/2 whole), and a major third being 4 half steps (2 whole).

examples:
C Major chord = C (root) - E (Major 3rd) - G (minor 3rd)
C Minor chord = C (root) - Eb (minor 3rd) - G (Major 3rd)
Cdim Chord = C (root) - Eb (minor 3rd) - Gb (minor 3rd)
Caug Chord = C (root) - E (Major 3rd) - G# (Major 3rd)

and so on, and so forth. of course, I don't know if I used #'s where they were appropriate, and b's where they were appropriate.. I tried.. but I still don't understand the rules fully myself :p
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01/18/2006 7:38 am
Originally Posted by: 6strngs_2hmbkrswell, if you know your intervals, then it's pretty simple. (let's just hope I remember this right)
Major chord = Major 3rd + minor 3rd
minor chord = minor 3rd + Major 3rd
diminished chord = minor 3rd + minor 3rd
augmented chord = Major 3rd + Major 3rd

with a minor third being 3 half steps(1 1/2 whole), and a major third being 4 half steps (2 whole).

examples:
C Major chord = C (root) - E (Major 3rd) - G (minor 3rd)
C Minor chord = C (root) - Eb (minor 3rd) - G (Major 3rd)
Cdim Chord = C (root) - Eb (minor 3rd) - Gb (minor 3rd)
Caug Chord = C (root) - E (Major 3rd) - G# (Major 3rd)

and so on, and so forth. of course, I don't know if I used #'s where they were appropriate, and b's where they were appropriate.. I tried.. but I still don't understand the rules fully myself :p

Yup, that would be the construction of basic triads. Now you build on that for 7, 9, 11, and 13 chords.
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magicninja
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01/18/2006 3:29 pm
So taking the C major scale. 2-->denotes higher octave

C D E F G A B C2 D2 E2 F2 G2 A2 B2 C2

CEGB would be Cmaj7?

CEGD2 would be Cmaj9?

and so on and so forth?

Would adding any octave of B to CEG make it Cmaj7?
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01/18/2006 4:58 pm
Originally Posted by: magicninjaSo taking the C major scale. 2-->denotes higher octave

C D E F G A B C2 D2 E2 F2 G2 A2 B2 C2

CEGB would be Cmaj7?

CEGD2 would be Cmaj9?

and so on and so forth?

Would adding any octave of B to CEG make it Cmaj7?

Yes, essentially it doesn't matter where the notes are on the neck and regardless of the inversion, provided that the ones you're hitting are CEGB. The process works pretty much the same with all chords based around 3rds. Of course there are twice as many possible 7th chords as there are regular triads since you've got another major or minor 3rd to tag onto the end of each triad.
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