Why Gb??


Jolly McJollyson
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Jolly McJollyson
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01/18/2006 5:44 pm
Originally Posted by: magicninjaSo taking the C major scale. 2-->denotes higher octave

C D E F G A B C2 D2 E2 F2 G2 A2 B2 C2

CEGB would be Cmaj7?

CEGD2 would be Cmaj9?

and so on and so forth?

Would adding any octave of B to CEG make it Cmaj7?

Sort of...Ninth chords also have the sevenths.

CEGBD or CEBD would be C9

Any octave? Yes, I mean, you want to thresh out the voices a little bit so that the B and C aren't right next to each other, unless you're going for a tense, cramped chord. You could have them 6 octaves apart if you really wanted, but the distance would make it sound a bit goofy if not done well.

yeah, after 9ths come 11ths

Which are just 1-3-5-7-9-11. Then 13ths which are 1-3-5-7-9-11-13 which is the entire scale haha.
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# 1
Cryptic Excretions
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01/18/2006 7:38 pm
Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonSort of...Ninth chords also have the sevenths.

CEGBD or CEBD would be C9

Any octave? Yes, I mean, you want to thresh out the voices a little bit so that the B and C aren't right next to each other, unless you're going for a tense, cramped chord. You could have them 6 octaves apart if you really wanted, but the distance would make it sound a bit goofy if not done well.

yeah, after 9ths come 11ths

Which are just 1-3-5-7-9-11. Then 13ths which are 1-3-5-7-9-11-13 which is the entire scale haha.

But, when making a 9th chord, you could still get away with leaving out the 7th. Granted, I didn't notice he'd left the 7th out in the original example, or else I'd have probably mentioned something to the same effect, but you can still get away with bailing on certain notes. Unless I'm mistaken with my material.
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Jolly McJollyson
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01/18/2006 7:41 pm
Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsBut, when making a 9th chord, you could still get away with leaving out the 7th. Granted, I didn't notice he'd left the 7th out in the original example, or else I'd have probably mentioned something to the same effect, but you can still get away with bailing on certain notes. Unless I'm mistaken with my material.

True, but commonly you should bail on the fifth, not the seventh. And then you want to limit that to root position seventh chords if any seventh chord. So, yeah, that's how we do.
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01/18/2006 7:53 pm
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Cryptic Excretions
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01/19/2006 12:51 am
Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonTrue, but commonly you should bail on the fifth, not the seventh. And then you want to limit that to root position seventh chords if any seventh chord. So, yeah, that's how we do.

It's kinda funny that you say that... I recently read somewhere, someone was suggesting to leave out the 3rd of all things. At least when it comes down to 13th chords. Anyway, I thought that was kind of odd since the 3rd has a lot to do with what kind of chord is being played.
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01/19/2006 3:46 am
6strngs, Jolly and Cryptic kickass for teaching me new things. :cool:
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Jolly McJollyson
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01/19/2006 3:57 am
Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsIt's kinda funny that you say that... I recently read somewhere, someone was suggesting to leave out the 3rd of all things. At least when it comes down to 13th chords. Anyway, I thought that was kind of odd since the 3rd has a lot to do with what kind of chord is being played.

Never never in a classical setting should you leave out the third. I mean, I guess in some special circumstances you could, but they are few.
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Cryptic Excretions
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01/19/2006 6:13 pm
Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonNever never in a classical setting should you leave out the third. I mean, I guess in some special circumstances you could, but they are few.

Well, I was reading this about 13th chords in specific and it was based around the guitar since and there are only typically 6 strings to work with it's not possible to play a 7-note chord.
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Cryptic Excretions
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01/19/2006 6:16 pm
Originally Posted by: magicninja6strngs, Jolly and Cryptic kickass for teaching me new things. :cool:

No need to thank me. I'm just doing my job.
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01/20/2006 12:57 am
Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsWell, I was reading this about 13th chords in specific and it was based around the guitar since and there are only typically 6 strings to work with it's not possible to play a 7-note chord.

Unless you have a 7-stringer of course but you did say typically.

How do diminished and suspended chords work. *gets pen and pad*
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Cryptic Excretions
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01/20/2006 2:19 am
Originally Posted by: magicninjaHow do diminished and suspended chords work. *gets pen and pad*

A diminished triad works just the same as all the other triads. It's based around 3rd intervals. It features a minor 3rd and a diminished 5th (which is a minor 3rd away from the initial 3rd).

Example:
F#dim includes these notes. F#, A, C
The distance between the F# and the A is a minor 3rd. The distance from the A to the C is a minor 3rd. And that's what makes a diminished chord.

On the suspended chords, it depends on the type of chord, but essentially you're just replacing the 3rd with either a 2nd (major 2nd I believe) or a 4th.
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01/20/2006 2:25 am
OK let's see if I under stand.

C D E F G A B

Cdim--->C Eb F ?

If the above is tru

Cdim7--->C Eb F B ?
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Cryptic Excretions
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01/20/2006 2:36 am
Originally Posted by: magicninjaOK let's see if I under stand.

C D E F G A B

Cdim--->C Eb F ?

If the above is tru

Cdim7--->C Eb F B ?

C Eb Gb, actually. The 5th (Gb) is a diminished 5th (a minor 3rd away from the 3rd). F is a perfect 4th which is a major 2nd away from the 3rd. Did you get that? The basis of triads is that they work in 3rd intervals. Each note is some type of 3rd away from the one before it.

And on the 7th chord you have two options
Cdimb7 - half diminished 7th
C Eb Gb B
The 7th (B) is a major 3rd away from the 5th (Gb)

Cdimbb7 - whole diminished 7th
C Eb Gb Bb
The 7th (Bb) is a minor 3rd away from the 5th (Gb).
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01/20/2006 2:43 am
Oh I thought diminished meant to drop a whole step.
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Cryptic Excretions
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01/20/2006 2:47 am
Originally Posted by: magicninjaOh I thought diminished meant to drop a whole step.

Not at all. When counting intervals between notes in a scale it's still a chromatic process. Diminished just means lowered or flattened. It also happens that there's an interval step called diminished which happens to be a 5th. Depending on the context, though, it can also be augmented, which is just sharpened. Y'know, that old stuff.

In C major you've got C, D, E, F, G, A, B. It's a major 2nd from C to D and even though the C# isn't involved in the scale, it's position is still counted as the minor 2nd. And that's how chords are made. Counting out specific interval steps between notes and playing the results all at once.
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01/20/2006 3:04 am
What I don't get is why Gb isn't called a minor 5th and why you refered to it as a diminished 5th. :confused: I'm sorry if it's something easy I'm overlooking. :o
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Cryptic Excretions
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01/20/2006 3:20 am
Originally Posted by: magicninjaWhat I don't get is why Gb isn't called a minor 5th and why you refered to it as a diminished 5th. :confused: I'm sorry if it's something easy I'm overlooking. :o

Well, essentially it is minor. It's called a diminished 5th because that's what they named it. It's functionality and sound in music is different from typical minor intervals so there for it needs to be differentiated. The diminished 5th is the spot on center of the chromatic scale. All that's around that are two 2nds, 2 3rds, 2 6ths, 2 7ths and an octave.

This crap's only easy once it clicks. Took me forever to understand what made a minor chord different from a major chord, so y'know.
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magicninja
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01/20/2006 3:42 am
Ok let's see here.

C--->Tonic
C#--> Has to be some form of the tonic right like a super tonic or Augmented first?
Db-->Minor second
D--->Major Second
D#-->Augmented second
Eb-->Minor third
E--->Major third
F--->Perfect 4th?
F#--> :confused: augmented again?
Gb-->minor 5th

I guess I need to learn my intervals better.

The formula for a dim chord is I bIII bV, correct?

and the intervals in a Major scale are wwhwwwh. No?
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Jolly McJollyson
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01/20/2006 7:27 am
Originally Posted by: magicninjaWhat I don't get is why Gb isn't called a minor 5th and why you refered to it as a diminished 5th. :confused: I'm sorry if it's something easy I'm overlooking. :o

Well, that's because the 5th is what's called a perfect interval. Example: in Amin, the 5th is E. In Amaj, the 5th is E. There are no major or minor fifths, so reducing the fifth a half step makes it diminished, and raising it a half step makes it augmented.
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# 19
magicninja
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01/20/2006 7:31 am
I see

So basically the intervals aren't from the tonic but from the previous note.

i.e
--------Minor third------Minor third
Cdim=C------------>Eb------------>Gb
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