Guitarist Brian Welch leaves koRn

Originally Posted by: Dr_simonWe have kept this civilized and no one has lost there tempers so far and that is brilliant as this is a subject people feel passionately about!

However swearing, cursing and flaming generally are the first steps along the path that leads to closed thread vill, wether I agree with what you are saying or not.

Please respect each other opinions wether you agree with them or not.

I'm sorry was that me? I didn't mean to sound like I was flaming anyone...

Ha.... just got to keep everyone on there toes if this is going to remain a civilized discussion.

It has been great so far lets keep it that way !

In future please try to understand what is meant by:
1) religious tolerance or
2) the idea of attacking an argument not a person

Nope, I think once again you have missed the entire barn !

If you have nothing constructive to add than don't post anything !

Finally which part of "attack my arguments NOT ME" did you not understand ??

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonBut please don't call the text I base my existence around a "book of stories" in that condescending manner. I don't call science (even though I have no religious qualms with it) a crock of ****.

I didn't mean that in a condescending manner, my apologies if you took it that way.

The bible IS a book of stories, whether you believe in them or not is a different issue.
Science is based on observation, experimentation and explanation, whether you believe its conclusions is a different issue.

What I was asking is why some people choose the words in an old book over what can be deduced through science based on observation and experimentation.

And for you Jolly, since you believe in both, how do you reconcile the contradictions between the two?

I'm asking these question out of pure curiosity, not to get anyone riled up.
Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean i'm not curious about what drives people to believe. :-)

Originally Posted by: SPLAnd for you Jolly, since you believe in both, how do you reconcile the contradictions between the two?

I'm asking these question out of pure curiosity, not to get anyone riled up.
Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean i'm not curious about what drives people to believe. :-)

To be honest, I don't find any contradictions. It's all a matter of whether the Bible is literally interpreted or not. I choose to interpret some of the Bible figuratively because logic says I should do so.

My grandfather, the most brilliant man I've ever had the honor of knowing, once said to me, "If you look at something and can't make sense of it logically then it's probably false." He and other members of my religious community have decided that method of thinking should apply to the Bible as well. God said let there be light, could that be a metaphor for the big bang? I see no reason why not. God seperated the land from the waters. Could the waters represent space, as Moses (the author of Genesis) had no equivalent word for "the vacuum of space?" I believe so. The Bible says God created the Earth in seven days. Later it states that a day in God's eye is like a thousand years. The largest actual number in the bible is 180,000 (the number of Assyrians laying seige to Jerusalem. We can infer that perhaps people living that long ago might not have been able to comprehend numbers like 75 billion, because the earth's population was not nearly as large as it is today, and such numbers were unheard of. Perhaps a day in God's eye is like one billion years? I have no qualms with that thought. God created the animals and plants in this world, writes Moses. Moses does NOT say HOW God created these things.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonIt's all a matter of whether the Bible is literally interpreted or not. I choose to interpret some of the Bible figuratively because logic says I should do so..

That's what I figured in your case. I guess I just wonder about those who do choose to interpret the bible literally.

Originally Posted by: SPLThat's what I figured in your case. I guess I just wonder about those who do choose to interpret the bible literally.

Well, such is their interpretation, and if that's how they choose to interpret it, it's their decision. I don't mind it so long as religion gives people hope, that's its goal (or should be). I disagree with the corruption of Christianity through the flaws of man, but I have no power to stop it. I try when it's appropriate (and THAT must be stressed) to point out apparent flaws, but then only when I'm asked or when the mood seems friendly enough that I won't offend anyone and can have a reasonable discussion.

Personally I disagree with atheism, but since I also don't believe you'll be tortured in hell for all eternity (see previous post), do what you feel, man. If you ever need something to fall back on, all religions always have their doors open. I would suggest mine, but also remind you that it's not the only one (obviously you know that). This isn't really directed entirely at you, SPL. To anyone in general: Religion is not some evil thing out there to quell the masses, I know Marx would disagree. MAN can use religion to abuse and brainwash innocent people (see Osama Bin Laden or Jerry Falwell). But religion itself (and I know for certain Christianity) is not about controling other people.

Well here is one belief of a baptist church I attended at one time(I left partly because of this and some other crazy doctrines)...

(here is the belief)
All the creation day's are very literal.God set the orbits and motions of every galaxy,star,planet e.c.t.Before the flood,the earth had a thick layer of water around it...kinda like a shield.God 'shook' the waters and the flood came about.After the 'shield of H20' went away,the oxygen rich enviroment that let people live for hundreds of years went away and peoples life span decreased(to '120').When a person dies they go straight to heaven or hell...every person that died before Christ went to hell,except there were two compartments in it.One was 'torment' and the other was 'paradise'...you can kinda guess who went where.Hell is in the center of the earth...after judgments are carried out,hell(earth or the center of it) will be thrown into the lake of fire(the sun...yep,our life sustaining star called the sun..who woulda thunk it?)
and everyone who accepted christ will enter one of three heavens and then god creates a new earth and a bunch of other neat stuff.
There is also 'levels' in hell...some who were decent people,but just never believed in Jesus for one reason or another recieve less pain for eternity...nice huh?
Levels in heaven too!The first is the atmosphere,the second is in space and the third is in deep space...awsome!I can just take a hot air balloon or use the hubble telescope to see my mom when shes dead.


and thats it for this particular churches doctrine on these subjects. :eek:

Woah... I got edited, sorry Dr_Simon, I wasn't trying to declare myself a "winner" nor was I trying to "flame" anybody, I don't see myself as better than you, and you may have noticed that throughout my post I had used "lol" which is of course 'laughing out loud' to indicate I was merely joking throughout... I'm extremely sorry, and will try to be sure it doesn't happen again.

Dude it was the stuff about other religions that got you into trouble.

Other than that, don't worry about it, lets move on !

wow chuckliveson.... I'm a baptist, and I don't agree with that supposed 'baptst' teaching you said you went to... that must have been a very confused pastor, sorry, no offense to anyone who does agree, but, man. I've heard of there being 7 heavens... but they aren't anywhere in space... and I don't believe hell is in the center of the earth... now about the thick water above the earth, I keep hearing about it from different baptist sources, but I'm not sure i believe it...

oh, sorry dr_simon, yeah I figured it was that, but like I said, I was joking, I really was not trying to offend anyone, you'll have to forgive me... I was merely listing all the arguments we have had so far, then I just said "what's left" I can see where what I said about muslims would be offensive, and I'm sorry...

I thought the idea of nine layers of hell was a mediaeval Christian idea as described in Dante's Inferno.

http://www.dac.neu.edu/uc/s.cassavant/DanteOut.html

Yikes !!

Hey have any of you guys ever read the book Angels and Demons by Dan Brown.

Its a pretty good book that challenges faith with science.

Originally Posted by: alucard0941Hey have any of you guys ever read the book Angels and Demons by Dan Brown.

Its a pretty good book that challenges faith with science.

I haven't gotten around to reading it yet, but let me put it this way:

Entertaining an author as he may be, you wouldn't want Dr. Simon doing medical research with Dan Brown's "Scientific Standards."

Good stuff to get you thinking, though.



As much as I love them, the problem with this kind of debate is that the "Creationist" side very rarely understands the "Evolutionist" side. Sure, there's a rough idea, but the finer points of Evolutionary Theory might as well have been written in Sanskrit then made into a Jumble. So the "Evolutionists" end up explaining things in a language the "Creationists" don't even understand and the debate never really materializes.

Heh... I really wish our schools were better.

Space travel...

So far we havn't encounterd any life beyond our own planet or been encounterd...any idea why its taking our cosmic brethren so long to find us?

What kind of sick god creates this ****? Dante's Inferno? Would you send your kids there?

~Incidents

Originally Posted by: chucklivesoninmyheartSpace travel...

So far we havn't encounterd any life beyond our own planet or been encounterd...any idea why its taking our cosmic brethren so long to find us?

Who says they haven't?

Originally Posted by: Incidents HappenWhat kind of sick god creates this ****? Dante's Inferno? Would you send your kids there?

I'm pretty sure "Dante's Inferno" is a novel... And I'm pretty sure it wasn't created by God... :confused: