Seeing as Bush has won (the popular vote, anyway)

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburnPS. Did I meantion that Bush won?!?!? WAHOO HE WON!!! .not Kerry but Bush!!! :D ...a big thank you goes out to all the liberals and democrats on this forum that said he wouldnt win :D

I definitely never said he wouldn't win, I said he shouldn't win.

I don't get why you're(anyone who voted for him in general) so excited about this.
What good has bush done to the country and to the world in the past 4 years?
Are we better off now than we were 4 years ago?
If yes/ if no, was that at the hands of Bush?
How is Bush planning on decreasing his spending, and reducing the deficit?

These questions are not meant as criticism, I really would like educated and well thought out answers.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburnJust look at John Kerry's Senate record..Do you think he would have been a good president?? :confused:

What constitutes being a "good president"? That's an incredibly vague question. What are our bases of comparison?
But, I do believe he would have done a better job than Bush has.

Now a question for you: look at Bush's presidential record, plus his entire professional career. You think he'll do a better job during the next 4 years?

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburnWe will just have to see what all happens in the next 4 years

Exactly, and I sincerely hope you're right.

Originally Posted by: SPLWhat constitutes being a "good president"?[/QUOTE]
We already had this discussion in another thread, but just to recap, here goes. A good president is one that enforces the laws of the land (i.e. federal and constitutional) and leads the military with confidence and conviction. The president's main job is to enforce the laws via the executive branch and to defend the country against all enemies. In this, I think Bush has done a good job. Not great, but good.

I can only imagine what would have happened if Gore had been in office during 9/11. We probably would have gone whining to the UN about police actions or some such rot. OBL and his extremist buddies would have taken us for weak fools, and we would have been attacked again and again. Has there been another attack since 9/11? No....so that's how I know that Bush has done a good job.

Like it or not, Bush's most important mandate is to defend the USA. If he has to step on a few toes around the world to do so, then that's fine with me. Like 3rd_degree says, we'll see what happens.


[QUOTE=SPL]Thanks, that made me laugh.

I'm so glad I amuse you. :cool:

Originally Posted by: ChristophI can only imagine what would have happened if Gore had been in office during 9/11. We probably would have gone whining to the UN about police actions or some such rot. OBL and his extremist buddies would have taken us for weak fools, and we would have been attacked again and again.[/QUOTE]

In logic they call this fallacy a slippery slope...

[QUOTE=Christoph]Has there been another attack since 9/11? No....so that's how I know that Bush has done a good job.

...and this would be a false cause.

These are merely hypothetical reasons for believing Bush has been a good president. There is no proof whatsoever to back these up. But, on the other hand, I can't prove you wrong either. But then what is the relevance of such arguments?

Originally Posted by: JFRICKI must say that's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Do Atheist believe in murder or something, because that's what stem cell research and abortion involves.....

Yes, I am a conservative Republican...........

I don't see stem cell research and abortion as having anything to do with Atheism. Case in point, 2 years ago my buddy knocked up his ultra-right wing, catholic, republican, daddy's rich little girl, girlfriend and she had to go get that fetus sucked out of her so she could continue to be in college. Irony: She voted for a man who wants to take that right away from her.

I realize you guys won. The presidency, house, senate, and soon the supreme court will all belong to you victorious republicans. My only solace is that now you will have absolutely no excuses if anything gets ****ed up, because hillbillies, rich assholes, and christian conservatives the whole country over are now running everything. So let's see what happens. It's a one party show (see: Germany 1934). Maybe if y'all do a good job, I'll get an American flag tattooed on my forehead, make my kids pray in school, and then I'll go stomp a foreigner for Jesus.

P.S. Don't take away my guns.

Originally Posted by: Christoph A good president is one that enforces the laws of the land (i.e. federal and constitutional) and leads the military with confidence and conviction. The president's main job is to enforce the laws via the executive branch and to defend the country against all enemies.

So, where does economic security fit into the equation? What about education and medical assistance for the elderly to compensate for the skyrocketing costs of pharmeceuticals?

While everything you mentioned is definitely important what you described is Ghengis Kahn, not a suitable president.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburnSly, sad but true , your just a another foreign person who thinks we went to war for oil

I didn't say that , you brought the discussion about oil and money by mentioning big countries that opposed the war ... May be keeping their companies working in Iraq was a reason for this opposition , but for the other reasons , they were definitely proven right , and the US/UK were definitely proven wrong !

No WMDs or Nuke capabilities found anywhere in Iraq , no links to Alaqeda or whatever terror groups , Iraq's missiles wouldn't have reached europe in 45 min (in fact they wouldn't have reached europe at all).
All these claims were based on inteligence reports and investigations ... Fabricated reports ?? Yes, that's what I strongly believe , if you have another explanation , would you please enlighten us !

I don't believe that oil was the only reason for this war , but you can't deny it was one strong motivation .
Other reasons surely had something with imperialism & ensuring america's supremacy , and in the case of this right winged adminstration , may be racism against people who lives in this region (remember Abu-Ghoreib's prison scandal ?) ... During the investigation , it was clear that Rumsfield knew about it months before the scandal evolved , and he did nothing to stop it ... Also , most people believe that these actions were executed under permisssion or orders from high US millitary personnel .

Originally Posted by: Hammurabi While everything you mentioned is definitely important what you described is Ghengis Kahn, not a suitable president.

LOL :D

May be this is out of topic but just to add a point , everyday a bit of your freedom as americans is taken away .... A couple of weeks ago , a bill signed by Bush bans prohormones and other products that are used in sports like bodybuilding . Read Here.

I'm not going to discuss the pros and cons of steroids (Personally I'm against using these stuff) , but at least , every man should have the right to decide wether or not to use them , even if it could hurt him.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburn and its so dumb to switch presidents during a war..you just dont do it

...because you just dont do it......

Well, that´s a good reason. I have to admit, you really could explain it!

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburn...a big thank you goes out to all the liberals and democrats on this forum that said he wouldnt win...

I happen to be one of those who felt Bush shouldn't get a second term. And as I wrote when starting this thread, looking at how he's performed (the deficit, the Iraq fiasco, the whole WMD thing, the anti - American sentiment in the rest of the world he's done a good job of fostering) etc, we in the rest of the world thought that these things would lead Americans to vote differently.
Boy, were we wrong!!!
They love him more than they did in 2000 :eek:
What with a popular vote margin (!) of north of 3 million votes.
But hey, why did you think America is what it is?
Democracy, baby. Democracy ( is it just me or is the word democrazy ringing in your head too?).
Oh well.

Originally Posted by: ChristophI can only imagine what would have happened if Gore had been in office during 9/11. We probably would have gone whining to the UN about police actions or some such rot. OBL and his extremist buddies would have taken us for weak fools, and we would have been attacked again and again. Has there been another attack since 9/11? No....so that's how I know that Bush has done a good job.

Like it or not, Bush's most important mandate is to defend the USA. If he has to step on a few toes around the world to do so, then that's fine with me. Like 3rd_degree says, we'll see what happens.[/quote]

OK.
Now, if my history serves me right, 9/11 was the largest (and I think the only-correct me if I'm wrong) attack on American soil since Pearl Harbour. Your having not been attacked previously doesn't mean the presidents you've had previously were good at anti terrorism, or that terrorists didn't exist before Osama. And by the same token, just because you haven't been attacked ever since, it doesn't necessarily mean Bush is doing a good job of defending you. In fact, from what I hear, America is still vulnerable to WTC style attacks.
But it could be argued that Bush's activities post 9/11 have helped suppress terrorism. Have they?
For starters, OBL, like the truth in the X files, is still out there. I don't know how well or poorly he's doing in terms of his ability to launch an attack, but he's still out there. And he's threatening more attacks. Maybe he's just bluffing, or maybe he can do what he threatens. Who knows? We could ask the CIA, they usually know these thnigs (WMD anyone?).
One of Bush's biggest action was Iraq. We all know quite a few facts about Iraq. We've argued it to death. No need to repeat it here. Anyone who feels the war in Iraq has helped curb terrorism raise your hand (or press enter on your keyboard :D )

PS:
CONSPIRACY THEORY:
The CIA faked that Osama tape to scare Americans into voting for the guy that looks like he can do a better job of fighting terrorism.
[quote=Bush]
You're either with us or against us!!

Who's biting into my theory?

Originally Posted by: HammurabiWhile everything you mentioned is definitely important what you described is Ghengis Kahn, not a suitable president.

:D :D:D
LMFAO!!!!

Originally Posted by: Christophand we would have been attacked again and again. Has there been another attack since 9/11? No....so that's how I know that Bush has done a good job.

Right, as long you are not attacked, everything is fine. And it doesn´t matter how many (A LOT MORE THAN on 9 11) non-americans died in the last 3 years due to decisions of Bush?
But obviosly many americans don´t care about this point!

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburn
Beginner- I shouldnt have to spoon feed you this informtion..It should be obvious (I guess not for some) that you dont swtich presidents during the time of war and you would be the worlds biggest idiot to switch. Look at what happened in Vietnam. If that isnt a good enough example then I dont know what is.

An opinion is no longer an opinion, when it is not well-founded. Just because it went wrong in Vietnam doesn´t mean it would have went wrong in Iraq.
Then you neither shouldn´t have invaded in Iraq: Look what happened i Vietnam. If that is not a good enough example for not starting a war then I don´t know what it is.. (Your words)
If you´re trying to convince me, you should finally start writing down an argument.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburnsome people are stubborn..

I can clearly see that ! :rolleyes:


You don't just go to war against a nation cause they possess explosives !
Private companies working in certain fields possess explosives for god sake !
And the inteligence reports said WMDs not explosives , and that's what Bush's adminstration used for propaganda to persuade the american people and the rest of the world that the war is a necessity.
That was a lie , wasn't it ?

Transparency & democracy , or cheating & hypocrisy ?

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburnKingdavid IF you are talking about the economy then you should know that the president has very very little to do with economy...[/quote]
Say word!?
OK.
I could swear that the business environment affects how well an economy does. I could also swear that govt. policy (say, for example, the tax regime) affects the business environment. I could also swear that the govt. affects govt. policy. And finally, I could swear the president appoints the govt.
Telling me that the president has very little to do with the economy is like telling me that the American Cheif of General Staff (you guys call him joint something) has nothing to do with a given war situation. He is at the very top of the system, and like you guys say, the buck stops with him. The president has a helluva lot to do with the economy. THAT IS WHY HIS ELECTION IS SUCH A BIG GODDAMN ISSUE!!!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by: Third Degree Burn
...It should be obvious (I guess not for some) that you dont swtich presidents during the time of war

What war? Iraq? Saddam's forces are still fighting?? I didn't know that, by golly! I'd have sworn you guys vanquished them in like 72 hours or some isht like that.
[quote=Third Degree Burn]
...there were atleast 350 and more megatons of highly dangerous explosives found..I know, thats not a WMD but thats a hell of a lot of explosive sitting around a crazy dictator.

Yeah, very easy to deploy within 48 hours.
And as an aside, mega means million, so you're saying Saddam had 350,000,000 tonnes of explosives. Hhmm, CIA anyone?

Thing is, Bush is American, voted for, and unequivocally at that, by Americans.
If kingdavid doesn't like that, he can always buy a beer and a pack of freedom fries to drown his sorrows.

There too much to argue when it comes to whom should have been president in my opinion and why. I myself was not totally for Kerry. Nobody is perfect. But building an argument against Kerry because he changed his mind in a 30-year period is a fool's argument. Name one person who has never changed his mind in 30 years about something? Well Kerry is guilty, but so is Bush. He's changed his mind more times than anyone since he's been president. Example one, after 9/11 bush said he's not gonna rest until he brings the people responsible for the attack to justice. Name Osama Bin Laden. Not even a year after, Bush was asked about Bin Laden and he said, "I never gave it much thought, and I don't care what happens to him." How can a president not care about capturing the man who was behind killing more than 3000 innocent American civilians??? Well yeah he's still at large. Who did he go after instead, Hussein. Oh yeah, and those who live in American now can vouch for this. We have been living in terror of Hussein since 92 huh?

About changing presidents in wartime. Yeah it's probably not the best step to do so, UNLESS the war is not going well. Vietnam is a good example. Kennedy started it. Johnson went into it after Kennedy was killed. During Kennedy it was mostly diplomatic. Johnson escalated it. Then Nixon made it, why? The threat of COMMUNISM! What’s the threat now TERRORISM. Not much of a difference when it comes to scaring the American public into voting for you. Wasn't the plan to bring DEMOCRACY to Vietnam? What’s the plan now? The same. Did it work? NO. Why? Politicians ran the war. What's happening now? The same. Forcing democracy is NOT DEMOCRACY. It scares me to say that the war effort is exactly the same too. What are we doing there, policing the state waiting to get blown up. Even when we know where these insurgents and clerics are. What happened in Vietnam? We knew exactly where the enemy was but due to political interruption. We had to wait til attack. Looks like another Vietnam to me.

How did Bush win? Most people in America do not support the war and what’s going on in Iraq. Bush won based on Moral values, which I think makes the people who voted for him look even blinder. Bush has no values as you can see in what's happened since he's been president. But yet he made it a point to join with the church. Think about this, and Bush probably does have faith. It got him out of the bottle as he would say. Kerry has been an outgoing Catholic all his life. He just never made it such a huge point in his election and that why he lost. The faithful are the people who made it possible for Bush's victory. It's sickening, because of the many cardinal rules that every politicianbreaks.

Stem-cell research? Hey, if it's going have a chance at curing most of the world's diseases and many other positive advancements in medical science? Why the hell not.

Gay-marriage? That in my opinion is for the church to decide. Even though neither supported it. So no use in making a point, but in my opinion this country is based of freedom. I have no problem with gay people getting married. So what. But that depends on the church, marriage is their idea.

Economy? Bush's one good thing in 4 years. Tax-cut. WOW! Who truly benefits from tax cut. The 1% of the American upper class. Kerry's idea was to increase the wages and benefits of the lower and middle class. Which in my opinion would have clearly made up for him level the tax rate again. But hell we'll all stay below the poverty wage rate of 8.60/hr. Great! Not to mention the biggest deficit in 60 years, and more jobs lost in 30 years.

Health-care? I can barely afford it because has raised it so much. Kerry was for lowering it so people like me can afford it once again. Cause my health and many other in similar situations is not important to Bush. Just his upper class buddies.

Social security? There's a lovely thought. Now I think I understand this correct, however correct me if I'm wrong. Now our hard earned social security money will now be thrown into funds and trades. No more collecting a balanced monthly check, my money will be played with by stock traders. Looking at the current economical state, that probably a REALLY BAD IDEA!!!

Education? Bush has a really good idea about education, but didn't he 4 years ago. Nothing has changed, do you honestly think it will this time? I hope so, but I also hope for the best, plan for the worst. In the state of Ohio, where the election was won. Schools have to pay 5000 a year just to open up. This has increased since Bush took office. I know in the area where I used to live 3 schools closed in Ohio in that 4 years.

Yeah Kerry looked like a freaky Frankenstein looking mo-fo. But he had better ideas for 99% of the country. But hey he looks weird, let's not vote for him. Let's vote for the rich redneck whose in it for the rich only. Not only that, let's increase the republican hand in the Senate and House so he can do whatever he wants. Considering his record in the last four years is so great.

I think if people really took the time to research both sides, most would be taken back but what just happened.

OK.
When you hear it being said that the govt. has a deficit that means that money is being taken from somewhere to finance the said short fall.
When a president starts a war that's costing America something like 4 billion dollars a week (it's some obsscene figure like this), it's not a coincidence that the deficit is that humongous. And when you think about what that money could be doing for the American economy other than financing the deficit, then you'll know the president's actions have a lot to affect the economy. A lot.
So he doesn't set the interest rates? Fine, you think the Fed Reserve just syas abracadabra to decide the rates? They factor in a lot of factors, and these are factors that are very directly affected by the govt and the president of the day.
It is not for nothing the presidential election is such a bi deal.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburn Sly
1) there was much more to this war than just explosives..I was jsut stating that they had a lot of explosives..I was NOT saying that that was our main reason for going to Iraq

Dude , why are you trying to avoid the truth and always change the subject ?
This adminstration lied to the american people and the whole world too , and that's a fact jack !


About the economy thing , your president affects the economy in his country and the whole world's too directly (bills,laws,taxes ,etc.) and indirectly (wars , political instability , diplomatic problems ,etc).
Doesn't the oil price rise globaly when there's a problem in Nigeria or anywhere.
What I'm trying to say here is that Bush is a warhead , and he causes chaos and instability in a lot of places , and definitely that's no good for any economy , specialy your own.
Let's hope the next 4 years pass quick and peacefully without new wars.