Seeing as Bush has won (the popular vote, anyway)

Originally Posted by: LeedoggJolly, I could never be angry at you bud. You voted for Bush in a blue state, I voted for Kerry in a red state. We're displaced, you and I, and that's our common bond. That, coupled with off-beat senses of humor and the love of 1980's nintendo music, would make us the greatest rock power duo of all time.

I'm so very worn out with discussing politics that I really don't care who's in the white house anymore. We may have differences of opinion politically speaking, but I extend the olive branch of friendship in the hopes that our divided country can find some common ground and quit arguing all the time. It's very tiresome.

Well, just remember, not ALL republicans are rich assholes, just like not all democrats are bleeding-heart hippies. Now can we PLEASE take over the government with guns?

Originally Posted by: 1791I might not be right but I dont recall Iraq asking for americas help
I'm tired of america trying to fix other countrys problems when america
still has problems

There's quite a difference between America's problems and the genocide in Iraq.

I probably should have clarified in my last post that I do support our invasion of Iraq. I also think Ghengis Kahn would have made a great president these last four years.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonNow can we PLEASE take over the government with guns?

LOLOL . . . :D

Sure man, I'm up for some Ruby Ridge action.

Originally Posted by: ChristophMaybe the rest of the world needs to start trying to stand on their own two feet instead of always running to the US for help. Whenever there's any disaster or any unrest everyone always expects us to come swooping in with a bag of money, or some stupid police action, and fix things. America is the most charitable nation on the planet, and the only thing we get in return is a slap in the face.

Thats the most ignorant thing Ive ever read on this forum.

You mind clarifying that statement?

Originally Posted by: LeedoggSure man, I'm up for some Ruby Ridge action.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeehooooooooooooo! Let's get the car from Dukes of Hazard!!!! :D

Chris

Yes but Bush has taken part in 2 of the 3 things you listed. Bush restricted the freedoms of americans by the patriot act. Before you get me wrong, the patriot act has stopped attempts to perpetrate more terrorist attacks. But it does take away some freedom. Not to mention this bill was written and passed before a single civilian knew about it. Voting against the military, I don't know where your getting that on Kerry, but Bush has proposed bills to cut several military wages, and close veteran hospitals. Taxes is less scary than it sounds.

Ok say you make a working wage of 5.15/hr. Which is minimum wage. You work 40 hr's a week, and you pay a 15% tax. That's 175.10 a week. Congress is trying to raise it to 6.65/hr and you work 40 hr's a week, and you pay 25% in tax. That's 199.50 a week. Now say you go to a poverty wage of 8.60/hr and 40/hr a week. You still pay a 25% tax rate. That's 258 a week. Bush as far as I know is contempt with keeping minimum wage down because he has lowered taxes. Kerry however was looking to raise taxes but also increase wages. Which looks nicer?? 199.50 a week is better than 175.10.

You can't have a prosperous economy without morality. After all, if everyone was stealing and killing, there wouldn't be much point in trying to be productive. Just look at 3rd world countries. So if voting on morality makes us blind, then so be it.

I agree. I didn't say voting based on morality is blind. That is what I base my vote on, I said voting for Bush based on morality is blind. My opinion and what I know tells me that Bush is a less moral man than Kerry. Neither are a saint. Lying to the american people is immoral, sending men and women to war based on that lie is immoral, and when that lie is uncovered; continuing to cover their true agenda is immoral. Of course secrets must be kept for national security but it would be nice to know something. It's hard for me to trust and have faith in an administration that continues to leave it's people in the cold. Much can happen behind closed doors.

The Blame value

See I hate when republicans lay the blame of the attack on the democrats, and democrats point the blame at the republicans. Both have equally contributed to what happened, and both have done their share to try to stop it from happening. Plus those who attack us don't care whose in office, they will attack us regardless. America and especially these government officials need to take a look in the mirror, see there own problems, and fix them. Rather than acting like two feuding siblings. GROW UP!!!

Hahaha, apparently my father was sitting downstairs on our couch watching the election, calculator in hand, screaming at the top of his lungs at the TV every time the Republicans won. The man was calculating the percentage of the house we had etc. It was like he was watching a football game.

Originally Posted by: ChristophThat's my whole point. We have our own problems, so why should we have to worry about the rest of the world? If Iraqis want to live under a muderous dictator, then I don't give a crap . . . as long as he doesn't bother us. We went in there to try to set up a democratic state, give them hope for the future, or some such nonsense, but all we get is a bunch of ingrates.

You have the right to worry (or not to worry) about anything that happens anywhere in the world , since any small incident that happens must have an effect (even if it's negligible) on everywhere else , but that's not the point.
Worrying is something and taking actions alone is something else , specialy when it's an unjustified war against an enemy that would have never reached your soil at least in the next century.

Don't you guys feel like cowards by attacking the weak who could have never attacked you and leaving the strong ?
The US invaded Iraq basically on claims that Iraq possesses WMDs which Iraq denied , UN inspectors denied, and was never found aftermath ... On the other hand we have N.Korea which is close to saying "We Have Nukes" , or may be carrying on an experiment sometime in the near future ... Bear in mind that N.Korea's missile range can reach american soil too .

Of course I don't mean that the US should have invaded N.Korea instead , but just trying to show the immorality of the story.

sry to break the mood, but how do you get avitars to work?

And On topic, I think I have an idea why were in Iraq. Oil. think about it...

South America- we went in and made a mess because they have Dimonds in south america. SA is the world's largest supplyer of dimonds.

Ethiopia-we didn't touch Ethiopia because what do they have in Ethiopia? sand and dirt.

Iraq-very, very large oil producer.

I think I see a pattern

Only Mods and Instructors get Avatars, sorry dude !

Originally Posted by: 4thHorsemen_721And On topic, I think I have an idea why were in Iraq. Oil. think about it...

South America- we went in and made a mess because they have Dimonds in south america. SA is the world's largest supplyer of dimonds.

Ethiopia-we didn't touch Ethiopia because what do they have in Ethiopia? sand and dirt.

Iraq-very, very large oil producer.

I think I see a pattern

:rolleyes: I think I've seen enough of this theory.

The war for oil idea doesn't make much sense to me. Don't we get most of our oil from Saudi Arabia, whereas most Iraqi oil goes to Germany and France?

I could be wrong, but I would be surprised if we're importing very much more oil from Iraq now than we did before the war.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollyson:rolleyes: I think I've seen enough of this theory.[/QUOTE]
It does get quite tiring.


NTM-

I agree with most of your post. There's actually very little difference between democrats and republicans. They're all rich dudes who do little more than look out for their own interests once they get in office. There are a few exceptions though.

The Patriot Act - can you name one instance of how a regular, everyday, law abiding citizen has had their freedoms restricted by this act? And not just made-up ones from far left websites. I think it's done more good than harm. I agree with the spirit of your post though. Freedom is not to be given up lightly, especially not for a false sense of security.

John Kerry - I don't really want to talk about him anymore, since he is now on the trash heap of history. But I can list dozens of bonafide military projects that he voted against during the past thirty years. In my opinion, he is not a very moral person. It seemed like he would say anything just to be popular. That dog-and-pony show where he came walking up out of the woods in his camo said it all.

Minium wage - I believe everyone should be able to maintain a decent standard of living. After all, if people get too poor then you end up with revolutions and all that messy stuff. But if the government raises the minimum wage too high then where is that money going to come from? From businesses of course. And if businesses have to pay all their employees more then they won't be able to hire as many people and more jobs will go overseas. Inflated wages and unions is what caused jobs to go overseas in the first place.



[QUOTE=SLY]You have the right to worry (or not to worry) about anything that happens anywhere in the world , since any small incident that happens must have an effect (even if it's negligible) on everywhere else , but that's not the point.
Worrying is something and taking actions alone is something else , specialy when it's an unjustified war against an enemy that would have never reached your soil at least in the next century.

I never said I supported the war. I, like you, don't really know what the point of it was. But now that we're there, we might as well do the best job we can. I wish everyone could mind their own business and live their lives, but sadly, things are rarely that simple. There will always be injustice in the world.

Originally Posted by: ChristophThe Patriot Act - can you name one instance of how a regular, everyday, law abiding citizen has had their freedoms restricted by this act? And not just made-up ones from far left websites. I think it's done more good than harm. I agree with the spirit of your post though. Freedom is not to be given up lightly, especially not for a false sense of security.

In regards to the patriot act, I am both for and against it. Kinda torn. I can not name a clear accident off the top of my head, where is it was used on a innocent american civilian. Not saying it has happened or hasn't. However all I would need is to know your name, where you live and I could just call any agency an accuse you of being a terrorist and your rights and freedoms would be questioned. I can't and would never do that. However many tyrannical governments have had similar rights. Russia under Stalin and Germany under Hitler, where all it took was an accusation to destroy what we think is freedom. Their cases were much more severe and I hope we will not go that far but it's questionable. Think if the threat of terrorism increases, or more attacks occur will we be forced to give up more? This terrorism threat seems to be giving the government a good excuse to pass such laws. These laws we're never questioned until we experienced terrorism. Seems like the take alittle now and then, and the people won't notice. But taking alittle alot does add up to be alot. Like the snowball effect. I also can't blame this solely on Bush, Reagan started it. But as time has gone on, more freedoms are being rewritten. Just alittle bit at a time, like the patriot act. How far will it go? If we continue to go down this path as we have in the last 20 years, it should be a concern to every american citizen.

Minium wage - I believe everyone should be able to maintain a decent standard of living. After all, if people get too poor then you end up with revolutions and all that messy stuff. But if the government raises the minimum wage too high then where is that money going to come from? From businesses of course. And if businesses have to pay all their employees more then they won't be able to hire as many people and more jobs will go overseas. Inflated wages and unions is what caused jobs to go overseas in the first place.

I agree, that is definitely a problem. However there are several businesses out there that makes hundreds of billions of dollars, yet their employee wage is ridiculous. Wal-mart for example. I don't know if you have seen it in the news lately, but they are being questioned and there's a great concern over them. Why? Because it is taking out small town independant businesses left and right. A company that has made trillions of dollars can't pay there workers more than 7.50/hr?? My store made over a million dollar profit over the summer months.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiThe war for oil idea doesn't make much sense to me. Don't we get most of our oil from Saudi Arabia, whereas most Iraqi oil goes to Germany and France?

I could be wrong, but I would be surprised if we're importing very much more oil from Iraq now than we did before the war.

Don't we get our oil from OPEC, or do we import directly from a given country. I though OPEC was created so all those oil producing countries wouldn't get into price wars with one another and sell us their precious black gold at rock bottom prices. I could be wrong, that was just my impression.

I officially declare this thread dead. Rest in peace o' politically-themed thread. May you live on in our memories.

However, as I can't let PonyOne have the last word . . .

Originally Posted by: PonyOneand yet you're supporting the guy who got us into that war and who is keeping us there?[/QUOTE]
It was pretty much a choice between two evils. A liberal scumbag or a guy whose true motives remain dubious. I chose what I thought was the lesser evil of the two.



[QUOTE=noticingthemistake]Think if the threat of terrorism increases, or more attacks occur will we be forced to give up more? This terrorism threat seems to be giving the government a good excuse to pass such laws. These laws we're never questioned until we experienced terrorism. Seems like the take alittle now and then, and the people won't notice.

I totally agree. All it takes is some sort of crisis (natural or man-made) and people are ready to give up their freedoms for security. It's the true sign that your country is going downhill when the people are willing to do this. I don't know if the whole OBL/9-11 thing was a conspiracy or not, but it would make sense if certain individuals wanted to take more of our freedoms away. All they have to do is make us scared enough of all the "evil" terrorists that we come running to the government to make us safe. True safety and security in this world is an impossibility, however.

As for the whole jobs and minimum wage discussion, I would say that the only way to fix this would be to somehow penalize the companies that outsource to other countries. That and - Cut taxes on working class peeps, dump all the regulations and lawsuits that make doing business so expensive, and outlaw most forms of unions to get rid of inflated employment rates. I doubt that any of this would ever happen since all the politicians (dems and reps alike) are on the take from big business and organized labor. So, we'll just continue down the crapper until an apocalypse comes around.

Without the Patriot Act we would have no Brooklyn Bridge, so i am pretty thankful for it.

No one denied that terrorism existed pre-9/11. But do you remember it getting much media coverage prior to that? Not really.

Clinton launched some cruise missles at Al Quada training camps back in the 90's in an attempt to off Bin Laden and associates; and the republicans raised holy hell. I guess it's always the job of the non-dominant party to get all pissy when someone takes action.

Blame Clinton if you want, blame Bush if you want. The fact remains we got our asses handed to us on 9/11. I think some ****ty policy decisions have been made since then, and that we got into an unrelated war, but that's just me (and 49% of the population). I wonder how the history books will tell the story of this era years after we're all dead?