Virtuosos and the mainstream

I dont know what's up with the public in the UK, but they cant seem to handle musicians that can actually play hence why musicians we here admire rarely cross over to the mainstream. Simple song structures and at best adequate instrumental skills seem to be the order of the day e.g. Kylie's 'I cant get you out of my head' and Oasis 'Wonderwall'. Even in the UK general music media there is a kind of snobbish attitude towards guitar virtuosos who are always written off as mindless widdlers. Bet you anything most of these critics have never even heard any albums by Satch et al. I think it's something about instrumental music that doesnt click with people who's collections mainly comprise Top 20 albums bought in supermarkets and 'Now that's what I call music 1, 457'. Probably also explains why jazz and classical music are also marginal tastes. So, what's it like where you live? Do the likes of Satch and VAI shift squillions of units and top the albums charts or they also only famous within the guitarist community?

the latter.

lets face it - we are insider-tips and we belong to a dying race

*starts weeping*

actually from what i understand the widdlers (eg Vai) are quite big in the far east...

personally i dont like the widdlers at all.. I saw DreamTheater at manchester in January... and i have to admit, I couldnt believe that I was seeing John Petruscci (sp)... to me it was so unbelievablly bland... he kept on soloing constantly... with very little that was particulary memorable... and the vocal's I genuinly though was parody of Deep purple... When the did the ballads, I have to admit, I hid my face under my jacket... I was just sooo embarrased for them...

There isnt much appeal to the current virtuioso's, i think, in a humanistic sense... I've got the G3 video with Eric johnson... and i have to admit there's surprisingly little to it... It's basically cruiseship entertainment Vai/ Satch style... at points i though i was watching the eurovision song contest...

Converge for example, are seriously competent musicans with some intresting ideas... although they're not really mainstream, i think they do have a relatively large following of poeple who arent musicians...

A band i would recommend is The Fall... Not awe inspiring guitar work, but very intresting production, and lyrics that'll really make you think, without sounding like the Soundtrack to some 80's car chase B movie... I really like the lyrics because they're not romantic or profound at all. They're also not pessimistic, and doom and gloom... They just sound like a pissed off stoner friend...
The Human voice i think seems to have the biggest apeal... the sound is apreciated, and also it comes with meaning/ ideas that are comprehendable, though sometimes i think you do need to know some background to really get some songs... the second part is what Vai doesnt seem to understand when he wrote "brother"... hehehe...
I dont know really...maybe it's because they're not really doing things that appeal to poeple as humans?

La lie la lie la lie la lie lie
la lie la lie la lie lie
Can't get yooooou
Outta my head...

personally i dont like the widdlers at all.. I saw DreamTheater at manchester in January... and i have to admit, I couldnt believe that I was seeing John Petruscci (sp)... to me it was so unbelievablly bland... he kept on soloing constantly... with very little that was particulary memorable... and the vocal's I genuinly though was parody of Deep purple... When the did the ballads, I have to admit, I hid my face under my jacket... I was just sooo embarrased for them...

I very much agree with you on this one. I don't like John Petrucci at all, I think he sucks. He can have all the technique he wants.. but his playing his BORING. Of course, I'll probably be lynched for saying this, Petrucci fans (like Vai fans..) are very sensitive, and tend not to take it well when people don't think very highly of his playing.

Oh christ.. and his instructional video.. rock discipline I think, one of the most useless things I've ever seen in my life.

Originally Posted by: sambobI very much agree with you on this one. I don't like John Petrucci at all, I think he sucks. He can have all the technique he wants.. but his playing his BORING. Of course, I'll probably be lynched for saying this, Petrucci fans (like Vai fans..) are very sensitive, and tend not to take it well when people don't think very highly of his playing.

Oh christ.. and his instructional video.. rock discipline I think, one of the most useless things I've ever seen in my life.

VAI IS THE MAN!! DON'T YOU SAY ONE BAD THING ABOUT HIM OR I SWEAR I'LL HUNT YOU DOWN AND MAKE YOU LISTEN TO ALIEN LOVE SECRETS OVER AND OVER AND OVER UNTIL YOU REALIZE HE IS THE MAN!!!

I'm not sensitive, just crazy. ;)

Shawn Lane was the man..

Now Frank Gambale is, you really can't argue with that if you've ever heard them play.

Originally Posted by: educatedfilmactually from what i understand the widdlers (eg Vai) are quite big in the far east...

personally i dont like the widdlers at all.. I saw DreamTheater at manchester in January... and i have to admit, I couldnt believe that I was seeing John Petruscci (sp)... to me it was so unbelievablly bland... he kept on soloing constantly... with very little that was particulary memorable... and the vocal's I genuinly though was parody of Deep purple... When the did the ballads, I have to admit, I hid my face under my jacket... I was just sooo embarrased for them...

There isnt much appeal to the current virtuioso's, i think, in a humanistic sense... I've got the G3 video with Eric johnson... and i have to admit there's surprisingly little to it... It's basically cruiseship entertainment Vai/ Satch style... at points i though i was watching the eurovision song contest...

Converge for example, are seriously competent musicans with some intresting ideas... although they're not really mainstream, i think they do have a relatively large following of poeple who arent musicians...

A band i would recommend is The Fall... Not awe inspiring guitar work, but very intresting production, and lyrics that'll really make you think, without sounding like the Soundtrack to some 80's car chase B movie... I really like the lyrics because they're not romantic or profound at all. They're also not pessimistic, and doom and gloom... They just sound like a pissed off stoner friend...
The Human voice i think seems to have the biggest apeal... the sound is apreciated, and also it comes with meaning/ ideas that are comprehendable, though sometimes i think you do need to know some background to really get some songs... the second part is what Vai doesnt seem to understand when he wrote "brother"... hehehe...
I dont know really...maybe it's because they're not really doing things that appeal to poeple as humans?

I am having a partivularly good time reading posts like that. This site is too overburdened with discusions about who is fastests, who is No1, 10, 100, 1000000, etc. Seems like most of the people are so frustrated about guitar and discovering some ultimate truths about music and life in general.
and I am very, very sorry for my bad grammar

I agree, modern guitar "gods" have all the talent in the world, but when it comes to writing a song, a couple of them do a decent one now and then, but can you ever get out on the dance floor, with beer in hand, and headbang or sing-along????NO!!! Thats why Rhandy Rhoads is considered (by me) the greatest player beacause he wrote such metal standards as Crazy Train, Goodbye to Romance, and Over the Mountain. Even Angus Young or Ted Nugent could open up a can of classic rock whoop-ass on Satch or Vai. Another thing that bothers me is that people call Joe Satriani-Satch. I hate this beacause when I hear the word "Satch" I think their talking about Louis Armstrong(kick ass vocalist and trumpeter)!!!!!

Two different fields, soloing and song making. Each one with its strong points but too much of any particular thing isn't good. That's why I never much liked some of the stuff that came out of the 80s, all solo and no tune. A fine balance is needed (like in blues haha). These guys that can whip off 400 bpm quintuplets... but play them over alternating E and D power chords for 4 minutes just doesn't turn my crank. But also, the tunes coming out these days with no solo talent side of it whatsoever, merely powerchords played behind fancy studio work and showcasing a particular style of singing makes me sick.

Big Wreck or I Mother Earth or the Hip are the only current mainstream bands I enjoy listening to.

I totally disagree with the Pertucci is boring statement. That might be your opinion on the matter, but that can't deny his abillity to play. Where do you think his soloing is boring ( Maybe the new cd yes, but not much anywhere else).

And a while back I heard you say a comment near the lines of the new cd is nu-metal junk, ok you go find a band , lets take disturbed, and lets go see if they can play the album from start to finish, lets see how the album makes those crap nu-metal bands look after that. And im NOT ONE OF THOSE persons whose all sensitive to him, I just think you underrate him much, and his level of playing. He can blow you and any one of us out of the waster with his frikin pinky toe. Its ok with me that you think he is boring but this comment " I think he sucks" is very wrong IMO.

Originally Posted by: basics

Big Wreck or I Mother Earth or the Hip are the only current mainstream bands I enjoy listening to.

Big Wreck, they split up though, that was too bad, becuase there first cd was phenomenal. Still a greta band though. Blown wide open is my personal favorite of theres. For i mother Earth, I like levitate alot.

I'm still not getting any idea about where guitar virtuosos might be making their money. Im just interested to get an idea of how many units theyre shifting and where. Correct me if Im wrong but I think 'Surfing with the alien' s done aound 3m units or more.

I think that most of the US virtuoso's are making their money doing a variety of work. I couldn't imagine any of them making much money of their CD sales. Maybe back in the day they made some nice coin, but these days I don't think so.

Here's where they are probably making the money:
1. Open any guitar magazine: Endorsements.
2. While you have the magazine open: Authoring Columns.
3. Instructional videos
4. Touring - they can make around 10k a night playing a modest size club.
5. Studio work / Soundtracks

There are so many ways they can make the bling-bling.

Wouldn't this be a concept: Amazing playing and mainstream (that means your girlfriend/mom likes them) Pop/Rock success. WOW. oh wait....Eddie Van Halen did this, and so did Randy....

I dunno, i was led to believe that Steve Vai shifted units in the far east? Can anyone set the record straight?

As for dream theater: I'm currently listening to my freinds Dream theater collection (And it is HUMUNGUS... 38 folders that I've found, some of which double cd's... I dont which are official releases and which arent... except the obviously live ones)... I like dream theater most out of the virtiouso pigoen hole. I think mostly because of Mike Potnoy (sp)... THe vocals I cant stand... The guitar really does strike me as being very bland... yes it's very technical, and there is the odd intresting passage, but it's like panning for gold, you have to sift through so much mud to get to it... I think that's the case with alot of these virtiousos...
I ofcourse want to get faster, and would love to play at speeds like Scott Mishoe... but if i could i dont think i'd write songs like that...

The musicians who's really inspired me recently is Nina Nastasia. Her album is quite simple, although there's alot to make you sit there an think about...

DreamRyche2112: I dont know... I've heard some guitarists here, and i dont think that John Petrucci is somehow elevated to a status beyond reach. There are guitarists who are faster (although I'm certainly not one). I find his soloing incredibly dull and uncalled for most of the time (it's just my oppinion, because there's nothing i can found it on)... To tell you the truth i'm not a fan of disturbed, and even if they cant play the new dreamtheater album, so what? What's your point? I dont think Bob Dylan could play to Jimi Hendrix's standard, but who's was in awe of who? Technical abbility isnt a deciding factor in anything... It's all subjective in teh end, and technical abbility is for those (it seems to me) who want to make less subjective, and more about making music into something metric... What does it matter if Vai plays Xnotes per sec... At the end of the day i've yet to enjoy one of his albums as much as "Horses" by patti smith...

My other complaint about the vitrusos doing the rounds in guitarist's bedrooms is the production... why on god's earth is it so sterile? I like a really gritty sound, and there are some (relatively) technical guitarist who dont sound so sterile... Dave Nervaro is one that i can think off... I like his stuff with Jane's Addiction...

What do you lot think of Grind core/ Death Metal... the harder end of the spectrum.. I've heard some really technical guitar work from those bands, but it's not so much of a center piece... I mentioned melt banana before, but that went down like a lead zepplin..

(by the way, my own aim is to become very technically capable, but also write some intresting songs... the only band i know of that have managed this in my oppinion is primus... I'd love to be able to play as technically as petrucci, and write songs that are as intresting as the pixies.)

ps: what do you lot think of Devin Townsend? He (like myself) is quite a big missy Eliot fan, or so i understand.

Originally Posted by: educatedfilmI dunno, i was led to believe that Steve Vai shifted units in the far east? Can anyone set the record straight?

As for dream theater: I'm currently listening to my freinds Dream theater collection (And it is HUMUNGUS... 38 folders that I've found, some of which double cd's... I dont which are official releases and which arent... except the obviously live ones)... I like dream theater most out of the virtiouso pigoen hole. I think mostly because of Mike Potnoy (sp)... THe vocals I cant stand... The guitar really does strike me as being very bland... yes it's very technical, and there is the odd intresting passage, but it's like panning for gold, you have to sift through so much mud to get to it... I think that's the case with alot of these virtiousos...
I ofcourse want to get faster, and would love to play at speeds like Scott Mishoe... but if i could i dont think i'd write songs like that...

The musicians who's really inspired me recently is Nina Nastasia. Her album is quite simple, although there's alot to make you sit there an think about...

DreamRyche2112: I dont know... I've heard some guitarists here, and i dont think that John Petrucci is somehow elevated to a status beyond reach. There are guitarists who are faster (although I'm certainly not one). I find his soloing incredibly dull and uncalled for most of the time (it's just my oppinion, because there's nothing i can found it on)... To tell you the truth i'm not a fan of disturbed, and even if they cant play the new dreamtheater album, so what? What's your point? I dont think Bob Dylan could play to Jimi Hendrix's standard, but who's was in awe of who? Technical abbility isnt a deciding factor in anything... It's all subjective in teh end, and technical abbility is for those (it seems to me) who want to make less subjective, and more about making music into something metric... What does it matter if Vai plays Xnotes per sec... At the end of the day i've yet to enjoy one of his albums as much as "Horses" by patti smith...

My other complaint about the vitrusos doing the rounds in guitarist's bedrooms is the production... why on god's earth is it so sterile? I like a really gritty sound, and there are some (relatively) technical guitarist who dont sound so sterile... Dave Nervaro is one that i can think off... I like his stuff with Jane's Addiction...

What do you lot think of Grind core/ Death Metal... the harder end of the spectrum.. I've heard some really technical guitar work from those bands, but it's not so much of a center piece... I mentioned melt banana before, but that went down like a lead zepplin..

(by the way, my own aim is to become very technically capable, but also write some intresting songs... the only band i know of that have managed this in my oppinion is primus... I'd love to be able to play as technically as petrucci, and write songs that are as intresting as the pixies.)

ps: what do you lot think of Devin Townsend? He (like myself) is quite a big missy Eliot fan, or so i understand.

Im not saying he is a god, Sambob is justn plain out said he sucks, which is wrong, there are thousands of better guitarists out there, but that des not mean he sucks because he does not mathc the standards of those guitarists. And his slolos are boring in his newer stuff i have to say. And his solos aren't really uncalled for, YES in the newer stuff i know that. Im ok with people not lking him, but can you honestley tell me that he sucks.

I think its kind of sad that virtuosos haven't made mainstream. We get rap and punk rock..... I mean you can't even hear anything good on the radios anyomre except some classic randy stuff.

I can't judge most of the virtuosos out there, cuz I don't listen to many of them. I barely ever take ideas and spin them to make my own song. I have never been able to do that, cuz I always end up sounding exactly like the player. That's why I don't even learn their songs.

Most of the jazz on the radio is losing its flavor too, but classical is still there.

Sambob is justn plain out said he sucks, which is wrong, there are thousands of better guitarists out there, but that des not mean he sucks because he does not mathc the standards of those guitarists.

I never said his TECHNIQUE sucks.

I've always found playing the right notes a LOT more important than playing them very fast. Thats why I say he sucks, because I don't think i've ever enjoyed any of his lead playing.

Japan.
Japan is keeping bling bling in the pockets of most shredders. Without japan guys like Richie Kotzen and Bues Saraceonno would have vanished ages ago.

The other day we we're arguing about a certain newspaper columnist who uses grammar that is so out of touch with everyday speech,to the point where you hardly ever understand what he's talking about.Most of the time,he just plain pisses you off.
I'm sure all the words he uses are out there in the dictionary,but he sounds much like a grammatical wankster,spewing things you'd have to look up.
My friend argued that the author was cool,he's on this level you can't reach him,blah blah blah.He also went to on to add that he(my friend) was a wordsmith.I told him that I too was a wordsmith(this is an opinion held by quite a few of the people who've been to my site,amongst other literary places I've been).He then goes of and asks me:
"What is......."
"What is ........"
Words whose meaning I didn't understand.
I told him that if we use the term wordsmith a la ironsmith,then what he was doing was holding up a piece of fine iron he had in his workshop,or a tool from his toolbox,not being a wordsmith.And while you need to have both the iron to work on the tools to work with,possesion of both is not being an iron smith.
It's a similar story with the virtuosos.
They don't keep in touch with their audiences.And music is communication.Guitar is not a one way process,where there's just you,the virtuoso,burning me,the listener,with your skill and speed and what have.It has to go both ways.And if I can't relate to what you're doing,you've basically lost it,since it beats the point of me being your audience if I don't understand you.
That's how I see it.