Moral discussion


Azrael
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Azrael
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05/03/2004 9:55 am
To me, music is something pure and innocent. I do not care who wrote it. Wagner, for example, was an anti-semite - yet i do listen to his music for it is brilliant. Let me give you an article that deals with this very problem:

First Wagner-Concert in Israel.

A remarkable premiere took place last friday (somewhen in the year 2000) in Rishon LeZion. The Symphonic orchestra of this little city near Tel Aviv performed, despite of considerable resistance from parts of the population, Richard Wagners "Siegfried-Idyll".

Endeavours to cancell that Concert - even with judical help - remained unsucessfull at first. Some persons and institutions sued against the performance. they reasoned that they were afraid of what physical and psychical damage could be done by a wagner piece to the israelian listener and survivor of the Shoah like insomnia, disturbance and states of anxiety.

One day before the act he Israel Supreme Court acknowledged the decision of the court of first instance not to cancel the piece. But, since the trial has not ended yet, the performance of Wagner pieces could be banished in the future. This is, however, highly doubtfull to happen because in israel the freedom of art is also a fundamental right.

Basically everyone has the right not to listen if he doesnt like a specific type of art, and he/she is also legally expected to do so. Traditionally israels judicature has a very high level of tolerance concerning the border between tastelessness and crime - especially when it comes to art they are very liberal. That isnĀ“t just a fertile ground for disclosure journalism, detailed reports on intelligence-service activities and political hate-campains, but it also paved the way for publishing works that may be considered as tasteless or disturbing by the victims of the antisemitism.

It is undisputed that Wagner was an antisemite and that he was Hitlers favourite composer. For Hitler his music towered as a symbol for the teutons. It was played in the concentrationcamps as brutalityĀ“s background music. This explains the long ban of Wagner's music in israel. The last public wagner-concert in the modern israel before 1981 was planned one day after the "reichs-pogrom-night" (Reichskristallnacht) in 1938. It was then cancelled because of the events in germany.

In 1981 Zubin Mehta, conductor of the israel philharmonic orchestra, planned on executing the prelude to "Tristan" during a pubic concert in israel. Some of the elder viewers collapsed in tears. Boo-ings from some of the visitors and others tried to storm the stage. With difficulty the orchestra finished the concert. During the following years the public radistations played various Wagner-pieces like "Voice of Music", "Lohengrin" and "Siegfried" without leading to any major protests. In August 2000 the complete "Tristan and Isolde" was scheduled.

During the concert there were no bigger disturbances. According to an article of the daily newspaper "HaĀ“Aretz" the scene seemed as if there has never been a bigger number of TV-Cameras to a concert than on this friday. The journalists outnumbered the protesters by far. Some of the visitors pointedly left the concerthall at the beginning of the piece.

Infront of the concert hall some Shuah-survivors protested and handed out flyers and protest-posters. A musicologist of the TV-Station N24 said, that "This is a disgrace to all of israels people. Wagner has inspired Hitler to his racism and antisemitism and i can therefore not approve the public performance of any of wagners pieces." On the other hand an israeli Historian and survivor of the Shoah himself said: "I strictly distinguish the world of music form the world of yesterday. Hitler loved Wagner, but the one hasnĀ“t got anything to do with the other."

ThatĀ“s basially what the whole arguement is about. On the one hand there is the opinion, that Wagner`s music has been labeled as antisemitic by the convictions of its author and it's abuse in nazi-germany and that label cannot be easily removed. The one who uses this music therefore refers to its former use.

The other opinion is, that just because the creator of a specific music was an antisemite and his music was - much later - used by an evil regime for propaganda purposes does not mean that his music is also automatically antisemitic and that it cannot be used for orther purposes. The work is therefore detached from its autor or temprary use.

I personally second that last opinion. Because.. what if i write a brilliant piece of music with all the love i can give, and then, for what reason ever, 3 weeks later i mass-murder 50 kids. what has the latter to do with my music, and why should it be banished just because i am an idiot? music stands for itself and not for anything else aslong as it has no stupid "kill yourself" or "hate and kill all jews" sort of messages in its lyrics.

the same goes for other things - like good plans or good opinions. sometimes someone has a brilliant idea but noone cares because most of his other ideas are crap. i think thats pretty narrow-minded.

[FONT=Times New Roman]Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. What you decide to do every day makes you a good person... or not.[/FONT][br][br]

# 1
Inisfail
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Inisfail
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05/03/2004 10:36 am
Oh my god, such long replies.. =D

I agree with you Azrael, and the guy don't have any "clear" messages, it's kinda cryptic and I guess it's, as most of the times, up to the listener to descide what the lyrics stands for. But I'm afraid he gave us all a little hint by killing a guy who had parents from a warmer country and that he prefered boys instead of girls.

And another thing. When he was playing in the band he had long hair, looked like any beerdrinking hardockar. Now, he's skinhead (bonehead, perhaps) and muscles beyond logic..

No, I've descided not to listen to them anymore for a while.. Some of you may think I'm doing the wrong thing, that music shouldn't be banned because of deeds that doesn't has anything to do with it, but I can't..

Thanx for your great participation in the debate!!!!!
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# 2
basics
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basics
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05/03/2004 3:00 pm
Off topic, but I'm feeling the vibe that you people don't adhere to the idea that folks are killed specifically due to religion. Rather because of human nature, religion as an excuse.

I brought in religion as a metaphore type thing, but I've got to disagree. In lots of places one's religion flows deeper than nationalism and if another's nation is trying to wipe out your beliefs then that's reason to kill I'm sure.

I agree with Azrael. I don't, however, believe that nobody is meant to be killed. We're animals and lots of animals kill their own of other packs or as a means to become dominant. Somebody messes up, sure kill em. Only laws that regulate the ultimate right, life, is survival and the laws of nature.

Killing for any reason other than money is stupid though. I say this without being associated in any way with a murder whatsoever.
# 3
kingdavid
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kingdavid
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05/03/2004 4:00 pm
Originally Posted by: basics...for all religion does for people it still kills...

People kill and blame alcohol,others dope others the death penalty,others religion.
Like Pony said(and pony,you are long winded),if you don't blame A,you blame B.There's 26 letters in the alphabet.And god,if you're chinese...
# 4
ketsueki15
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ketsueki15
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05/03/2004 5:55 pm
Originally Posted by: kingdavid26 letters in the alphabet.And god,if you're chinese...


Sorry man but the chinese dont have an alphabet..
somthing i got from a web site for those who dont believe me
"The English word "alphabet" comes from the first two letters of the Greek alphabet (alpha and beta) because it was the Greeks who adopted this writing system from the Middle East and transmitted it, along with their culture, to the rest of Europe. Alphabets are phonetic systems where the individual sounds of the language are represented with letters. Letters are symbols which only have phonetic values and do not mean anything by themselves. The letters in a word have to be read together and vocalized, either aloud or mentally, in order to be understood as a concept. Chinese writing, on the other hand, developed as a system where the symbols represent concepts. Although sound does play a role in the construction of a character, it almost invariably stands for a semantic value"

Now i agree on the death penalty..Why should my taxes have to go to someone who intentionally killed someone..I say that if you purposely killed someone and they have solid good evidence then u should get the death penalty..thats just my views..no means to offend someone
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# 5
Inisfail
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Inisfail
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05/03/2004 10:10 pm
Originally Posted by: PonyOne
Azrael gives a good point; Henry Ford was a raging anti-semite, who also believed that blacks and Asians and everyone else were sub-human (hence not employing them). His views were so in line with Nazi-ism that guess what? He became a Nazi. That's right, he was a member of the Nazi party, who personally recieved medals and commendations from the big H himself, and the agreement went that post-WW2, when Nazi Germany ran the world, Ford (and VW) would be the wheels of choice for the discerning gentile. And for that matter, VW was started by Hitler. But how many Jews drive VW's (my girlfriend does, and I sell them, I've sold probably like 200 Jettas to young Jewish girls), and Lincolns and Mercury's are popular with the older Jewish community (Lexus, Buick, and Caddilac are more popular though).


Ok, I'm convinced. But, on VW it doesn't stand "let's kill the jews", right. Nor "Superior mighty warriors of pure unhallowed blood" which COULD mean the arian race. If those banderolls or whatever it's calles could be a metaphor to the lyrics in your discussion. That's the problem I've to deal with..

Anyway, death penelties have existed ever since men have been able to think. And guess what, 500'000 thousand years later we are still killing each other.

Religion has been a tool for thousands of years for killing people, controlling people and to manipulating people. Just take the interesting case USA vs Iraq. Saddam said: Allah be with you, Bush said: God be with you. Haha, Allah and God is the same guy, don't you know? Thats interesting. Like having the same coach when you play soccer. =D

And, if you havn't forgett. If you kill someone you will burn in hell. I suppose I would say: Satan be with! you or something..

By the way, I know the solutions to all problems in the world: Put those to who can't agree on an Island where they only can survive if they help eachother for six months. Believe me, they will agree.

Abdul Kalam and Pervez Musharraf. Bush and Usama. Me and my little sister. Sharon and Arafat (or former leader of Hamas: Ahmed Yassin had been better thou). You and Someone-You-Don't-Like.

There is only one god, and that's the guy who found out how fun it was to eat overriped grape. Yeah, Hendrix, of course.
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# 6
ketsueki15
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ketsueki15
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05/03/2004 11:16 pm
Originally Posted by: Inisfail Allah and God is the same guy, don't you know? Thats interesting. Like having the same coach when you play soccer. =D

And, if you havn't forgett. If you kill someone you will burn in hell. I suppose I would say: Satan be with! you or something..


Hmmmm i dont know if your joking or not but Allah IS NOT the same as the god I believe in (the christian god)...Look it up on the internet if you must...Yes if you kill someone you will burn in hell, but one can be forgiven (you can be forgiven for mostly anything) and repent there for cleansing your self of all sins..Those are just my beliefs
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# 7
b_hoves
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b_hoves
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05/03/2004 11:32 pm
Originally Posted by: ketsueki15Hmmmm i dont know if your joking or not but Allah IS NOT the same as the god I believe in (the christian god)...


It is the same God, just like the God of Christianity and Judaism is the same God.
The Islamic religion was created when the creator saw an angel of God, the angel told him some things, he wrote them down. He then took the writings to both the Christian and Jewish churches. They both shunned him so he created his own religion. The basic difference is that Jesus was another prophet and so was Mohamed (the creator of Islam) and that the Son of God has not yet come. The Jewish rejected his writings because Jesus has no part of their religion. And the Christians rejected his writings because to them Jesus is the Son of God.

There are more ties between the three major religions than you think, e.g. the word heaven is the Islamic word for paradise, and the idea of heaven and hell is also of Islamic origin.
# 8
Inisfail
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Inisfail
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05/03/2004 11:44 pm
My source: http://www.maryhession.clara.net/allahandgod.htm =D

Erh, according to swedish lexikon on the net,
Allah means:

!bugger! or !bloody hell!

Thats funny. =D

In swedish: !DjƤvlar Anamma! or maybe !Gƶta Petter!, !HƤllskƶtta!

LMAOx1000x1000 = Very funny

Ps. No offence to anyone, esepcielly muslims. I hope you have humor and doesn't take anything I say in this thread to serious. Ds.
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# 9
TheDirt
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TheDirt
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05/04/2004 1:01 am
Originally Posted by: InisfailMy source: http://www.maryhession.clara.net/allahandgod.htm


Your source is a song?! Here's something that claims to be an explination of Allah's origin. I do not have the resources at hand to verify this proposition, but it does sound more legitimate than the song you've quoted.

Allah, the Moon God
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

Now, while some of the message is definitely not verifiable (the Christianity claims), the part about Allah can be researched by anyone who has questions -- if anyone does have the time to check up on this, please report your findings.
"You must stab him in the heart with the Bone Saber of Zumacalis... well, you could stab him in the head or the lungs, too... and the saber, it probably doesn't have to be bone, just anything sharp lying around the house... you could poke him with a pillow and kill him."

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# 10
Cryptic Excretions
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Cryptic Excretions
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05/04/2004 1:25 am
Yep, this debate's gone way past where I'd like to further continue, I'm bailing on this one, it's a nuetral debate, do guns kill or do people kill with guns. No wins, no losses, just a bunch of clustered opinions.
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# 11
ketsueki15
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ketsueki15
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05/04/2004 2:13 am
thats pretty interesting...I wonder if any of that is true....Are you a chrisitan dirt?
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# 12
Inisfail
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Inisfail
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05/04/2004 11:49 am
Originally Posted by: PonyOneAnd this war that's going on right now is about oil (Bush) and the preservation of a tyrranic empire (Saddam) and using God (let's rally the midwest) and Allah (let's get Al Quaida/Hamas/Al Aqsa/Islamic Jihad onboard) were just bad exuses to justify something much larger. And yes it is ironic that both parties successfully lured a sickening amount of idiots to agree with them by using the same fellow as a rallying call.


Your're right, they use poeples beliefs for their own purposes. But I wouldn't call them idiots, especielly not the poor poeple in the middle east. If you barely have food for the day, of course you put trust into a god who at least will take you to a paradise when you die if you're faithfull. And when this god's choosen (I guess Saddam called himself that (choosen by bugger, haha), kings and tyrants have dont that for millenniums) tells them that their god is on their side if you fight, of course they listen, cause then you're faithfull. By the way, that hasn't got very much do to with the suicide-bombers in Palestina. That's another issue
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# 13
kingdavid
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kingdavid
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05/04/2004 1:29 pm
Originally Posted by: ketsueki15Sorry man but the chinese dont have an alphabet...

Learn to keep the discussion flowing.Replace chinese with the language that has the longest alphabet,get my point,and lets keep going.
But hey,thanx for the info.
# 14
ketsueki15
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ketsueki15
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05/04/2004 1:39 pm
learn to keep it flowing?? this disucussion went from whether some guy should listen to some other guy who killed some one; to religion to you bringin up that little thing about A blamed B and god forbid if your chinese (which i get your point, but it was sorta dumb)...I dont know if you would consider that "flow".

I made a mistake earlier..I agree with what most of pony has to say except for some stuff.
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# 15
Inisfail
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Inisfail
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05/04/2004 3:07 pm
You guys make my (every)day! =)
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# 16
Jolly McJollyson
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Jolly McJollyson
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05/05/2004 9:54 pm
Originally Posted by: ketsueki15learn to keep it flowing?? this disucussion went from whether some guy should listen to some other guy who killed some one; to religion to you bringin up that little thing about A blamed B and god forbid if your chinese (which i get your point, but it was sorta dumb)...I dont know if you would consider that "flow".


Eggman, is this a Nitpicker? I think I found one.
I want the bomb
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My band is better than yours...
# 17
basics
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basics
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05/05/2004 11:17 pm
Hey now, everybody's got a point and/or something to say. No use getting into calling people names and/or blaming people for taking the discussion certain places.

A nitpicker is one who is 'Concerned with or finding fault with insignificant details'.
# 18
Jolly McJollyson
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Jolly McJollyson
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05/05/2004 11:54 pm
I know what a nitpicker is. I was referring to Eggman's post in Places to go Sites to See
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# 19
ketsueki15
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ketsueki15
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05/06/2004 12:15 am
He started it! :p
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# 20

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