My theory why goths/satanists are actually happy little Christians

Seve 420

You are right- the pelvis is also a leading cause of mother mortality. If I can clearly remember, Alan Alford, this author of the book that I used to read has this argument against evolution and I believe he states that it's both the size of the pelvis and the huge head in babies.

Reading your post, you said that "a large head doesn't stop someone from being able to survive and have children (unless of course they may be seen as less attractive, but there is usually someone who would sleep with them)."- but you seem to miss an explanation explaining how a large head doesnt stop someone from being able to survive. All you did was progress into the statement "'Good' traits that allow them to adapt well to their environment gives them a better chance of surviving and producing offspring, that is how 'good' traits become more frequent." Hence, I have no idea how you've come up with the idea that "a large head is a good trait" because you didn't explained it. You just said it was good. Here is what I have to say. Since a child's big head and the mother's small pelvis is one of the major causes of mothers and baby's death, i don't see how- in evolutionary terms, these characteristics can be classified as good traits because it doesn't help them adapt to the environment- it kills them! How can dead mothers and dead babies reproduce and pass on traits if they're dead? Hence, it cannot be a "good trait." It must be a bad trait that must disappear in the evolutionary process to increase the chances of both the mother and child's survival. Now, all I'm asking- just as Allan Alford proposes is that, if evolution is right, why didn't we just change or evoloved into something with small heads and and bigger pelvises (for the women) when these traits seem to give us more success for survival.

PonyOne

I also believe in people finding their spiritualities and paths to enlightenment/God in they're own way. Like you, I was raised in a home of diverse religions- I was raised by a catholic mother (who didn't go to church LOL) and a Protestant (Lutheran) father. Then, on my mother's side are the Catholics who go to Church, some are hardcore Catholics, some so and so, and this weird uncle who is a convert of the Cult of Mary. Then on the fathers' side- the nth degree cousin side- there are the friggin religious extremists or otherwise known as the Seventh Day Adventists-I've never seen so vast and amazingly musical people, but I've also never seen a more pathetic, screwed up christians-except for the mormons and certain catholics i guess. As a kid, I always had this interest for God and the metaphysical. Having witnessed so many deaths as a kid, I started thinking about death and how it affects us all. It made me think of my own, and in thinking about it, led me to think whether there is a life after death. As a kid, I read the bible extensively and in doing so, found many faults in religions. I always got into trouble with my catholic teachers, debated with priests and pastors for what i thought was right. I have enlightened quite a number of heads when I was a kid, but soon, I got tired debating and preaching because I felt that I wasn't doing a very good job following what i preach. i felt like a hippocrite so I decided to keep my beliefs to my own. That way, if what I preached was wrong, I'd only have myself as a liability, and I wouldn't have to be held responsible for other's souls.

When I was a teenager in highschool, a teacher noted my knowledge of the bible and guided me to philosophy. Hence, I started reading the many works of Plato, Aristotle, and stories about Socrates- and this progress to the many other topics in philosophy like the stoicism, metaphysics, fatalists, existentialists, etc and the works of the many enlightenment period authors like Descartes, Hobbes, voltaire etc.

Going to University, besides doing more philosophy, and meeting other people of diverse backgrounds, I started delving deeper into the other religions like Judaism and a bit about Jewish mysticism, Buddhism, Islam, Aetheists, other subdivisions of Christianity, mysticism, and ancient cults like the cult of Dionysus, Cult of Mary, and THE WAY. Since I was taking Psychology- and our professors discouraged the belief in a soul, I also got into materialism and science.

My quest for a God and life after death had lead me to so much. But I still don't claim that I know a lot and i have THE ANSWER- maybe just more educated and enlightened. I've learned how religions evolved and how people understand religions in many ways- religious/ metaphysical, philosophical/ rational, skepticism, scientifical/ materialistic, and psychological etc.- but I still find that I have yet to arrive at THE ANSWER. I felt more enlightened but I don't feel like a know all.

Personally I believe in a God and I profess myself a Catholic- but not the Catholic that people commonly know, and not the catholic that I abhorr myself. Rather, my understanding of God and my religion is a combination of all the knowledge that i've accumulated over the years- eastern and western religions, metaphysical and scientifical etc. Just to give you an idea of some of the stuff that I believe- I think all religions embody an element of the TRUTH just as myths, in its most basic definition, is also one that contains an element of the truth. Now, regarding to the rest of my personal beliefs, I shall now choose to keep it to myself because I don't want to go into further trouble and debates. I will just share the thoughts of the many authors that I've read- hopefully, you guys will find it enlightening just as i had.

Originally posted by PonyOne
Honestly I feel as though most Aetheists are as laughable as the proverbial Christian suburbanite who turns to Satan and Hot Topic as a means of rebellion.

When you get raised in a family that adheres to a certain religion it is really easy for young people to fall into this kind of "rebelious" behavior. At a certain age that behavior is just really normal, while they're just looking for their own truths like anyone else.
I'm assuming most atheists and satanists you know of, and think are laughable, are probably in their late teens and/or early twenties... Wait till they mature a bit, and realize the kind of BS that they are spewing, most likely they'll start making a lot more sense without feeling the need to piss off people who don't agree with them.

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH *Gasp* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Not all children die at birth when the mother does. That is how the trait can survive. And I mentioned before that having a larger head was because of the larger brain, I can't see how having a smaller brain is seen as better.

I'm sick of this. I can't see the point of going on about this anymore.

@ seve420

"Not all children die at birth when the mother does. That is how the trait can survive."

That is why, I am amazed as to how such a bad trait can still survive. It is against evolution. LOL, pardon me. i'm so tempted to comment and explain the deal about this and how a smaller head can be better. but you're right. there's no point going about this anymore LOL. i'm getting tired of writing anyways. but if you would still like to know, i'll gladly talk about it. right now, i think i'm going to give myself a rest.

@ aiwass

I understand that many Christians say that they do not try to convert other people. LOL, I get that all the time from the Seventh Day Adventists. They're like trying to be nice and all- but behind the niceness and the "i'm not trying to cvonvert you crap," they're very subtlely trying to convert you to be like them. But although I propse myself a christian and a catholic- as i said before, i am not the typical catholic/ christian that you know. I am a Catholic Christian in a sense that I believe in God and Jesus Christ and that I try, as humanly as possible, to be good and not to be a nuisance to others. When it comes to the sacraments and some of the catholic dogma/beliefs /practices- that's where i begin to differ. I seriously think that Catholicism and most of Christianity has deviated from what the real Christians should be like- the one intended by Christ. It has turned more into a corporate business and a political institution. But just because everyone is screwing up doesnt mean i have to blame Christianity for it. You have to understand that these people are not real christians- they're simply a bunch of assholes trying to hide in the name of christ and the christian religion. It's like this analogy: Suppose you have a family with brothers and sisters. And this family is the best family in the world until one day, your brothers and sisters starts messing up. Would it be fair to blame your parents for it and change to a different family just because your siblings screwed up? Hence, I am still a Catholic and don't blame God.

As for the fact that you're an aetheist- i truely understand and respect that- and I don't condemn you for it like other christians would do. People define God or their reality- whatever you call it in many different ways- and I understand them very well. From my quest for The ANSWER, i've encountered many ways in which people try to define their own reality- whether it be religion, philosophy, or science. I'm also a graduating psychologist. We're forced not to believe in such a thing as the mind or the soul- only the brain exists so I should know! LOL. But as hardcore and as factual as science is. I still chose to believe in a God for many reasons. And one of them is the fact that I've got nothing to lose. In the end, when i die, it wouldn't make a difference if there's no God. I'd simply cease to exist together with my emotions and consciousness and the abscence of God wouldn't even matter or make a difference to me. On the other hand, If I'm dead and there is a God, then I'm actually better off, because as my God promises, I shall live again. It's that simple. I forgot which philosopher said this, but it's better to be on the safe side and I'm just playing it safe. Now, some people who don't believe that such a being as God exists will think that believing in a God is a life of deception- but I tend to disagree. In a scientific and psychological sense-"deception" is not necessarily an evil. It can be good. For instance, we have certain ideologies that we keep intact even though it is not reflective of the real world because it maintains our self esteem, principles, and certain relationships with other people and our relationship to the world intact. It's also due to these ideologies that we know of things such as faith and hope and these other stuff which makes the world a little brighter- This is what separated Tolstoy from Schopenhauer I believe. I can go on and on- but believing in a God, even if he didnot exist is beneficial. And I think, just as religion is human nature- it is a necessity. As Berkeley puts it: Even if God didnt exist, we would have to create one.

As PonyOne puts it "The bottom line is that spirituality and beliefs must be from ones own heart, regardless of how you do or don't follow God." CS Lewis- My favorite author, used to be an aetheist for quite a long time until he converted to christianity and became agruably the best defender of the christian faith. You're very young and the road is still long- there's so many things that you have yet to encounter. It's not my job to convert you. You'll find it on your own. In the end, we'll all find what the ultimate reality is one way or another. In believing in a God, I just don't see how I can lose.

I had many feelings like you Aiwass.I thought for so long 'If theres a God and he lets this world suffer such horrors then I want no part in such a sick being'.After studying the scriptures I came to realize that Jesus never concerned himself with the physical...but instead spiritual and made it a point to show that his spiritual things are much more real than tangible,touchable matter.His apostles actually "followed him no more" becuase they simply could not grasp anything other than the tangible.They could not trust in Jesus that this life and the things of this world are just 'flashes in the pan'.

One man asked Christ "what must I do to be saved?",jesus said "leave/sell all that you have and follow me"...the man walked away sobbing...

Jesus meant much more meaning within this event.He was asking the man to disregard the tangible and trust/follow christ.The man walked away because he could not bear the thought of this life being insignificant to the one christ has prepared...All because he couldnt see or touch it.

The above in no way attempts to show that what Jesus says exists is there...it simply means to trust him.Yes,I mean faith...

@ chucklivesoninmyheart

That has been an on going battle for as long as I know- that "if god is good, then why is there evil/ or why does he allow evil." here's one of the possible solutions to it- but it will only work if you believe that there is such a thing as a free will, that Jesus Christ is the saviour, and the existence of the Holy spirit. if you don't believe in these things, then there is no point reading this because this answer will never work. this might sound silly but I think it's his gift of free will that prevents god from just changing everything for the good. No matter how badly God wants to interevene, he just can't because that would be violating his gift and his own rule. That's the reason why God gave you both a brain and free will- so you could figure things out your own and you can prove God that you're worthy. It's like this analogy. If your parents did everything for you all the time, can you say that you're world would be a better place? Ofcourse, the answer to this is NO. You would be acting like a spoiled brat, you will always be dependent on your parents, you won't be able to be self- sufficient, you will lose your chance to develop a sense of identity because everyone's doing everything for you, and you wouldn't be able to define yourself and your place in the world. Besides this, you will also miss certain things that only comes as a product of being independent and self efficient such as learning to value the fruits of your work, discipline, leadership skills, problem solving skills etc. The same could be said to God. God doesn't want to intervene with free will because he's giving you the chance to grow as an individual with a brain-and to put that brain in to good use. Of course there are times when we can't stand by ourselve alone- that's why God sent his son Jesus Christ as a guide, and the Holy Spirit to comfort and help. However, despite of all this help- it surprises me that many people still blame God for all the evils in the world, when it fact, most of the evil that happens in the world happens because of some people's desire to do evil, rather than good. As much as God wants to intervene he knows he can't because he would be violating his own law. But don't despair- there's a catch. Those people who are abusing their free will doing evil don't go ahead unpunished. There is such a thing as justice and it will be served. Religions differ on what kind of justice is this. some say hellfire and brimstone, death, karma etc. But I think they're destruction, punishment- whatever you want to call it will come to them as a result of their own doing. As I said before somewhere on page 7 of this thread-

"Free will exists. It is your choice whether you want to be under god's will or not. But here's the catch. In some religions, God is described as the TAO or the way or direction in which all else fall. If you choose to follow a a different path- you will be destroyed. And you will be destroyed not because God wants to punish/ destroy you. Rather, you are destroyed as a result of the consequences of your actions. Here's a good analogy for you: think of a plant. In order for a plant to grow, you have to put it in the direction of light. You can choose to put it in the path of the light or put it in the dark. If you choose to put it in the dark and away from the light, then you can do so- but if the plant dies, its not because the light wanted to punish the plant. Rather, the plant died because you removed it from its natural environment which is in the path of the light. The plant died because you took it away from its life source.

Here's another analogy: If Bob drinks too much and one day his body gives up, you cant say that bob's body gave up because God punished him. Rather, Bob's body gave up as a consequence of the abuse that he placed in his body. Alcohol is not the natural path, activity, substance that the body is used to be exposed regularly in the first place."

As I said before- most of the evils in this world are man made and could be solved/ prevented if we haven't been so selfish. I see no need to blame God. It would be like refusing to stand up for our own selves and blaming our parents and other people for our mistakes.

Also, think about it this way, if there is no God- or if the God that exists is an evil one, why does goodness still exist despite of all the evils in the world? Somehow there is still this force that exists that tries to promote balance, justice or homeostasis- whatever you want to call it, in the world. Therefore, there must be a just God.

I dont really think about what i am, I dont have any religion in my life, but I have good morals for my self, im a nice guy, and if i go to hell if there is one beacuse i didnt bow down to a non existant being that has never showed its self to me I dont think thats very swell. I think if there is a heaven I should be accepted beacuse i was a good person.

@ Cody_King

that's why i don't believe in a concept of hell as a sort of eternal punishment. i think that's just propaganda by the church to convert people into christianity. rather, hell i believe, is something that we create for ourselves, and it is the natural result of things when we don't follow the TAO. I have explained this on the previous page- if you dont mind reading it. its a pretty long post but i think it's helpful.

Many people think that God doesnt show himself to us, but i think he does in many ways. it's just our mind is so ditracted with the pains and the evils of the world, and all these materialism that we fail to see him sometimes- just as when a good friend suddenly commits one mistake, we tend to persecute that friend for that one mistake despite of the many good things that that person has done in the past. It's just a matter of faith and trust. As i strongly believe- you have nothing to lose.

Here's a theory of mine. If God is good, then all things good is of God. Even if you don't see a God, just keep on doing good and the fruit will one day learn of its tree :)

I am a Christian, however I do not try to force anything on anyone, God gave us free will so who am I to try to take that away?
I have been faced with questions and discussion like this before, and basically my argument always comes down to: ‘if I’m wrong then I’ve lived my life well and then there will be nothingness, but what if I’m right?’

@ aiwas

but why is there a need to categorize god? i believe that god is universal- i think to label him as a christian god is to talk of god in a limited sense. even if he is a christian god, i'm sure he's not the wrathful evil god protrayed by christians who use the doctrine of hell and brimstone to convert followers. that is not the real christian god.

here's what i think. i strongly believe that all religions talk of the same god. the only reason (well, not the only reasons but they are possible reasons) why there are so many conflicts and differences in the idea of god is due to our differences in culture, differences in our ideals and perception, understanding of the divine and translation. That's why in my previous post, i said that all religions are like myths in a sense that they both tell a version or an embodiment of the truth. Think of this as an example- the idea of a dying and resurrecting god has been around way before we ever knew of christianity. There was the cult of Dionysus, and that of Osiris Dionysus, and that of bacchus just to give examples. These characters came from different nations and cultures, the surprising thing out of these stories is that although the story line is different, the main concept or element is always the same- they foretell of a dying and resurrecting god, just as many prophets in the old testament also foretold of a dying and resurrecting God. And as CS Lewis puts it, the amazing thing was that the myth came to life, just as the "word became flesh" through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

i know that the God of the three major religions are the same God, these religions are all use the old testament, and both Christianity and Islam use the new testament. The God of all these religion is not the fire and brimstone God that the Catholics, and some of the other churches, used early the century, in my opinion he is much more forgiving and doesn’t want any of us to go to ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ (heaven and hell are in inverted comers because both of these are Islamic concepts, original Christians believed that the after life is just being with God).

[Edited by b_hoves on 02-03-2004 at 06:47 PM]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe what we're in right now is Hell.

Think about it. The death, sickness, corruption, disease, starvation. Maybe this is Hell and we must suffer here first before we can live in Heaven.

Just a thought.

Possibly. As I mentioned before- we do make our own hells. Interesting isn't it?