Professional Songwriting

Anybody do professional songwriting for a living or on the side? I did some research on it awhile back on the internet, checking out sites of various organizations who advertised promoting your tunes for a fee. I forget the details as it was quite a while ago but how would one go about getting hired somewhere as a songwriter? That'd be the greatest day job ever, sitting in your house all day writing tunes for a living. Dream on.

I'd never send a tune away without knowledge of the corporations legitimacy. Out of curiosity, what's the going price of a tune that's picked up these days, if it does in fact work that way?

I actually got asked to do it once, but declined. There are many ways to become a paid songwritter, but you have to go through the same stuff, if you had a band. The best way to get noticed is by entering a songwritting contest and place. There's plenty of those on the internet, and some are actually judged by people who work in the music biz and are looking for tunes. Those will cost a fee (unless 20 a song) but if your tune is good enough, it's what you got to do to get there. Who knows after that, if you become a consisted writer and someone notices you, well you might be able to make a living off it. One contest that goes yearly pays 50 grand to the winner. Then again the winners usually write pop songs, that you might see B.B mack play. You have to write what is popular to do it that way, in my opinion. The acts that buy tunes are usually country, and pop acts, very few rock acts unless it's corporate rock. That doesn't sit well with the public though. Another way to make a buck as a songwriter is, from movie producers looking for tunes for there movie. You can make a hefty buck if your tune gets in a popular movie. I believe Evanescense (sp) made a huge dollar and plus got signed by a major label, just for being in the movie spiderman (i think it was spiderman or maybe daredevil). There's alot more freedom in writting for movies than for corporate acts. I'd like to write tunes for horror movies myself.

That's right. I remember seeing and almost entering the 'John Lennon Songwriting contest' I think it was. I didn't have enough time though to pull it off. If they're picking pop music artists then all one would have to do is pick up a midi unit and crank out an nsync type tune. Canned music.

What about sending a demo tape to a company and saying, hey hire me as a songwriter? Odds are they get 300 tapes a day and unless you have a well known.. publisher(? .. not promoter, I can't think of the word) they won't even look at it, right?

Research some bands who you think would sound good performing your songs, buy their cds' and check the song credits to see if they perform other peoples songs. Mail a demo of the songs to their management company, or better yet, if they come to your town in concert try to get a demo to them personally.
You have to realize, most rock/pop acts don't want to record other peoples material because it means less money for them in royalities.
I tried it once, I wrote a song that would have been killer for Indigenous to record (a nice blues/rock peice w/some rippin guitar). I submitted it to them but unfortunately heard nothin in return. Maybe you'll have better luck then me.:)

daveasdf:

"...getting hired somewhere as a songwriter? That'd be the greatest day job ever, sitting in your house all day writing tunes for a living. Dream on..."

"YES", my friend, with all due respect- CONTINUE to "Dream On"! LOL!

I don't mean to "burst your bubble" bro', but there's RARELY a case where I find others working in [this field] that see it as the "DREAM JOB" they though it was, or as any form of an "easy ride"!

I've been working Double-Tripple-Full-Time NON-STOP in several aspects of the music business for many years. I've worked, amongst other things, as a producer (and still do) on many projects that require my writing of parts, sections, tracks, entire songs, Producing projects or just segments, etc.

If you want to go for it, DO IT! You have my best wishes & support; but I implicitly advise AGAINST IT to any of you whom may be looking for a "FUN" job or any resemblance of an "easy ride". It's 100 "hard-knocks" for every ONE moment of pleasurable experience.

No matter HOW GOOD you are at what you're doing, just try it for 10-15 years or so (for starters!), and see how many of your clients; respect your judgement, your time, your efforts, your art, your initial comittments & contractual agreements with them...

ANY resemblance of lucrative success will involve the "scratching-off" of a few common aspects of your daily life;
Such as: any form of a social life, more than 3-hours of sleep per week, succes/security in a relationship (if you even have time for one), any amount of money you can spend on your family or yourself...

Oh, did I forget to mention...
PAPERWORK, LEGAL FORMS, PAPERWORK, CONTRACTS, LEGAL FORMS, TAX FORMS, PAPERWORK, BUSINESS FORMS, and PAPERWORK.

NO... I'm not disappointed in what I do for a living...

I'm just experienced.

GOOD LUCK TO YOU!

...and while you're at it, WISH ME SOME TOO!


~JSV

Good luck, dude. But hey, if you're ever at a club, and the DJ plays a song, you can walk over to a chick and be like, "You know...I wrote that. Here's the legal documentation." It might not always work, but hey, it's cheaper than "May I buy you a drink?"

jaysus, there's a punch in the gut if i ever saw one. mind you, i've never heard a good word about the music business unless you're the one in a billion that makes it to the spotlight. i'll just plug away at my guitar, working the crummy day job, and put trust in my symmetrical face and god like body to get me to where i've got to go, haha. of all the past times i had to pick this one.

haha, yeah true enough

Originally posted by daveasdf
That's right. I remember seeing and almost entering the 'John Lennon Songwriting contest' I think it was. I didn't have enough time though to pull it off. If they're picking pop music artists then all one would have to do is pick up a midi unit and crank out an nsync type tune. Canned music.

Yeah, but who wants to waste the time.

What about sending a demo tape to a company and saying, hey hire me as a songwriter? Odds are they get 300 tapes a day and unless you have a well known.. publisher(? .. not promoter, I can't think of the word) they won't even look at it, right?

Yeah there's one problem with that, and it's sad but true. If you haven't made a name for yourself a record company (one that may purchase your songs) won't even open the envelop. You have to climb the hill before you get noticed in the music biz. That's why I'd start of at the songwritting contests, at look for movies in production and maybe send them a demo of a tune you think would go good in a movie. You have a better chance in movies, I believe, because the movie biz already shovels out millions. So if they can get a good tune for the fraction of the cost of a big act to do a song for the movies. They'll save the money.

Yeah chris, your right. The band doesn't make the decision of whether they can use your tune. The record company and management make that decision, and since they would have to track you down, get your permission with legal documents, plus pay you royalties. They save themselves the hassel. You may get a crum if they use a hook from your song, but that's about it.

JSV, tell me a job where it isn't like that anymore? With a hundred good deeds, I still get someone trying to f#$k me over in the end. Obviously, you need to love making music and be excellent at it to make it full time. Unless your on MTV, as an artist you'll live a mediocore life either way. Your right though, you should probably only look forward to it being a part-time thing you do on the side of a real job. At least until you start getting major royalties.

Do you work for a major label? If so, I though they took care of your legal documents for you. At least as a producer. I understand how you get treated. I once had to work with a producer and as stubborn as I am :D, it's didn't go over well. I wanted to change keys on a certain part, he wanted to take the part completely out. I bet you get that alot. 'LOL'

I'm sticking to my guns. It's worth it to be like, I wrote that, what now...BIATCH!?

YO' JOLLY...

..."You know...I wrote that. Here's the legal documentation." It might not always work, but hey, it's cheaper than "May I buy you a drink?"...

LMAO! Oh man! :D I'm rollin' from that one!!

-and to "onewhomnoticesmistakes"

...JSV, tell me a job where it isn't like that anymore? With a hundred good deeds, I still get someone trying to f#$k me over in the end...

Youe are SO RIGHT, my brother! ;) It just seems like others I know (who DON'T work full-time in music) seem to keep more of their personal freedoms & social liberties in tact.

I work for independent artists/studios, and It's taking me years to establish a soild foundation for my OWN business.

To TRY and answer a question:
When you're an "employEE" for a company or business, SOMETIMES legal/contractual things can be taken care of for you. When you're creating your OWN business, hiring others, contracting your time/efforts/talents, then within the first couple of years you are "SWAMPED" with all kinds of paperwork, contracts... I have two file cabinets "bustin' at the seams" and STILL not enough place for my CRAP!

When you're "breaking-in", it's also not always so easy to make demands about how much you'll get, and what you want to retain, etc. If you do, most companies contracting you as an artist, or provisional producer (so to speak), will just find someone else who'll do the job for less or make fewer demands.

Check this out; several years ago I played the "chops" on a REEBOK ad. I was more interested in getting the gig, getting in good w/the producer (amongst other things), than I was at taking the risk of making too many demands. I did the gig, got paid (a decent amount ;) ), and I made a WISE decision by being COOL & HUMBLE or I wouldn't have experiences like this one to share & learn from.

Even when there are others (who's JOB it is) to take care of "your" paperwork/legal/contractual matters, you STILL must decide wisely to be solely responsible for "what happens" to you & your work...

...if you "get my drift"?


~JSV

Ahh, yes. Still doing it on your own, no wonder you got so much work on the side. I know it's a hard job for a producer cause your always trying to see eye to eye with whomever your working with. Especially when the artist disagrees, and the record exec's wants it there way. I feel bad for the producer when that happens, that's why I never wanted to be one or a recording engineer, cause they can get stuck in the middle of that mess. I can't believe the music biz is the mess it is, now we can only hope to still love it after what it can put us through.

Originally posted by daveasdf
I'd never send a tune away without knowledge of the corporations legitimacy. Out of curiosity, what's the going price of a tune that's picked up these days, if it does in fact work that way?

usually one of two things would happen:
1) The band would buy the copyrights of the song off of you, so basically they would own the song and you would not recieve royalties. You could recieve a couple of thousand from a lesser know or indie artist, to tens of thousands for an established act such as "Cher" or "Eric Clapton" (both who buy a lot of songs).

2)You would get paid nothin and retain the copyrights to your music, recieving royalties for airplay, and recieving "points" for the cd. Usually it works out if there's 10 songs on the cd you would recieve 1/10th of the artists earnings. When you realize that most artists earn less then a dollar per cd that doesn't come out to a whole heap of money.

Odds are there's a pretty slim chance of getting your tune bought or used by another established musician - and if it does happen odds are it's not going to be worth much. Seems being in a band is the easier route, or a studio musician.

Well there are bands that will buy tunes, but you have to make a name for yourself first. If you are still a nobody, getting a name act to buy your song would be like trying to convince Bill Gates to buy a broken down pinto from a used car dealership.

You have to do a little research and know your market. R&B singers, jazz singers, country acts, pop divas, boy bands...pretty much all buy their material. Rock and blues acts hardly ever use other peoples songs.
I don't think it depends too much on having an allready established reputation like "theonewhonoticesmistakes" is talking about, a good song is a good song, and someone who likes your song is not going to choose not to record it becuase they never heard of you...that's crazy. If your material is solid, and you present it nicely packaged and pro-recorded you should be cool.

In one way or another, you ALL make a valid point. Fact is; it's a very, very, complicated process to explain in a forum like this. People spend many years in [this business] "learning the game" (if you will) and STILL don't completely understand the whole process.

-It's NOT impossible to sell a song if you're a 'nobody'; that's entirely true. -It's NOT any form of a DREAM JOB as those who haven't worked in music full-time for at least 10-15 years may think; that's entirely true.

I have people "in my life", let's say, that are very, very, very, close to myself/friends/family (I'll leave it at that), and I know first-hand of the methods of tide which make the bulk of the entertainment industry function (from some/or/one of the biggest agencies in the business).

-Sell a song here-n-there if you're an 'unknown'... sure it's certainly POSSIBLE.
-Make you're living WITHOUT having any form of an "IN", or having a reputable agent, or knowing which channels (professionaly 'political') you're expected to follow/implement in order to gain the proper respect for those "behind the desk" to spend their time & risk [their own] jobs/reputations/carrers in timely legal negotiations with... NOT likely.

Sorry if I got a little "wordy", lol! Please don't take me wrong my brothers. I'm AGREEing with most of you! But the ebb-n-flow of the currents which run the tides of the biggest incomes in this business (supplying wealthy full time occupations), are very deep, and very woven.

It's just that when one "sees the sh*T", one desires so desperately to share the truth for the aiding of service to his/her fellow brothers. In SOME respects; honesty can be as much a burden as a virtue.

....so I'll be working on my bulls**t act real soon!


~JSV

I did a 9 month internship with a successfull, local (philly) songwriter / producer. Like everything else in the music biz, there is no 1 way of doing things, but many avenues to go down. To make it as a songwriter takes a lot of tenacity and luck, not to mention talent. Most songwriters I've meant usually approach it as a craft, not an art, cranking out more songs within a year then the average singer/songwriter writes in a lifetime.

I think the big difference between having a "name" and not having one is: when you have an established reputation artists will come to you seeking songs, when you don't your forced to hussle. Which is pretty much true in all aspects of the industry.

Originally posted by daveasdf
Odds are there's a pretty slim chance of getting your tune bought or used by another established musician - and if it does happen odds are it's not going to be worth much. Seems being in a band is the easier route, or a studio musician.

Hmmm, if your looking for easy, your in the wrong business.
Like Griphon once said,"It's easier to become a successfull doctor or lawyer then it is a successfull musician, and a lot less work." Figuring there's about a quaddrillion bands out there looking to get signed (and some of them pretty decent), you probably have a better chance of hitting the lottery. Studio Musician....that's a thing of the past. With computers, and home studios, studio musicians are the guys who live 3 doors down who come out to lay down tracks for fun and a couple of beers. Although it is possible to make it in LA as a studio musician doing film scoring....but it's pretty cut throat since it's such a slim market.

Don't fret, it is possible to make a decent living as a musician, but you have to be willing to play weddings and corporate events, musical theater shows, cover gigs, and teach. There's still time left over to do fun gigs and pursue personal musical interests. The key word for being successfull is "diversity", the more styles you can cover the more you can expand your opportunity of work.

Originally posted by chris mood
I don't think it depends too much on having an allready established reputation like "theonewhonoticesmistakes" is talking about, a good song is a good song, and someone who likes your song is not going to choose not to record it becuase they never heard of you...that's crazy.

The music biz is crazy if you haven't noticed 'lol', and I know everyone can agree if you have a name for yourself you got a better chance in having your tune bought. If you don't then it's going to be hard. Harder than anyone looking for fun would ever want. A good tune is a good tune, but it's naive to think that alone will get you in the door. The artist who you sent it to may love it, but it's still got to pass the record company (hell the artists fav. song may not even make it on the album[depending on the label]). Like producers and sound engineers, they got there own market they would rather shop at. The business of today goes more by "who knows you" more than anything, especially entertainment. Sad but true. Without a name it's like trying to hit the lotto, good luck!