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Fruitbat
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Fruitbat
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09/10/2003 7:51 am
Originally posted by Pantallica1
True. You have to look at the music that was available at the time. There was no distorted guitars, or electric guitars for that matter. Just old fashioned piano. Now there's so many types of music, that classical just gets put on the back burner. The next Beethoven or Mozart might not be discovered for another 200 years after his death when someone is digging through classical music and hears his piece.


what about the harpsichord, lute and mandolin? in the posher houses of the period these were often knocking about, more so than the old joanna.

interestingly enough, there are many records of music, art and lit. critiques which show that even works put out by Wolfgang A, Beethoven, Brahms etc often came in for a serious roasting just like records by Bush in the UK do.
# 1
iamthe_eggman
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09/10/2003 1:42 pm
Originally posted by Azrael
Originally posted by noticingthemistake
Also life was a lot simpler then, and theyā€™re was much time to pursue such a level of skill.


Simpler? well - hardly. what is so hard about todays life? i guess it was alot harder to get your mouth fed back in those days where you had to work REAL hard.


I think life was simpler back then, less distractions, I would think that, like other artists of the period, classical composers didn't have real jobs, people were more fascinated by simple things in life, like watching the fire and playing with hoops and sticks. No Internet, Playstation, TV, heck, not even radio or newspapers. I'd call that a simpler life!


Couldn't all this stuff about Bach putting his name into music be conspiracy theory? I mean, people find hidden codes in everything. Someone even disproved "hidden code finding" by "decoding" a fisheries act and finding words about fish, the ocean, etc. "encoded" into the text.
... and that's all I have to say about that.

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# 2
Azrael
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Azrael
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09/10/2003 2:12 pm
Originally posted by iamthe_eggman

I think life was simpler back then, less distractions, I would think that, like other artists of the period, classical composers didn't have real jobs, people were more fascinated by simple things in life, like watching the fire and playing with hoops and sticks.


oh boy.. you realy should read a few history books. Bach was apart form his work as a composer, Organ-Player in several churches, Conductor, Thomaskantor, etc etc.. and what does the average guitarplayer do all day long? having a more or less secure job ,nooding around on the guitar a bit and chatting on the net. a VERY hard life that is indeed....


Couldn't all this stuff about Bach putting his name into music be conspiracy theory? I mean, people find hidden codes in everything. Someone even disproved "hidden code finding" by "decoding" a fisheries act and finding words about fish, the ocean, etc. "encoded" into the text.


DEFINITELY no - period. get into his works and theory and youĀ“ll understand why.

[FONT=Times New Roman]Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. What you decide to do every day makes you a good person... or not.[/FONT][br][br]

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chris mood
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09/10/2003 2:50 pm
Remember too, that back then your parents choose a trade for you when you were born, and if you were of working class you most likely did not attend school and started apprenticing on your choosen path at a very young age.

If your parents decided that you were going to be a musician, and they were not musicians themselves, most likely you were sent off to live with a teacher. I know Mozarts father was a musician, and Bach trained his 8 sons (?...not positive about my facts of Bachs siblings) to be musicians. One of Bachs sons (Christopher?) actually gained a lot of noteriety during his lifetime and was actually more successfull then his father ( Bachs true success did not come until around 100yrs after his death).

I can imagine the pressure put on these young prodigys by their parents to be successfull was tremendous.

Also, since there was no devices to record music the only way to hear music was to perform it.
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iamthe_eggman
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09/10/2003 2:59 pm
Well, I was thinking of other artists, like painters, who would get royal commissions or have wealthy patrons. The artists generally lived in squalor nonetheless, but as far as I know, Da Vinci or Mozart didn't have to do anything other than paint or compose. Perhaps teach or perform, but not clean offices at night or work as waiters. Their entire lives were focused on music. Even the jobs that you said Bach held - they were all related to music, did he ever have to work as anything non-music-related?
... and that's all I have to say about that.

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noticingthemistake
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09/10/2003 3:09 pm

Well - that is absolutely not true - you just arent into that kind of music to see its development. there are HEAPS of well known, well payed composers out there who are known all over the world. they just arent played on MTV. the 20th century is FULL of truly amazing composers - and so will the 21st century be


Yeah I know there are many good classical composers out there, most get there jobs working in film scores and playwrights. I meant there not making an impact on the music world like the composers of that era did, and none Iā€™ve heard can compare to the greats, like Mozart and Beethoven. To me a lot of Classical composers now are students of science rather than innovators or art. My opinion of course, however cynical it may be.

Simpler? well - hardly. what is so hard about todays life? i guess it was alot harder to get your mouth fed back in those days where you had to work REAL hard.


Of course there were hardships, in Beethovenā€™s Era there was Napoleon and Mozart walked a continent stricken with disease and death. What I mean by simpler is oneā€™s everyday life is not as complex as today's. Life moved at a much slower pace and wasnā€˜t as stressful. Back then the only stress one would have is writing a composition. And they didnā€™t have TV, radio, cars that could break down, anything like that so if they had spare time they wrote. The life of a common man was definitely a lot harder but simpler.

That is true - just think of the Hexachord.


Yeah definitely. We still donā€™t use the seventh degree of the major scale much now either, if so itā€™s usually flattened. So the scale becomes Mixolydian instead, which is more popular today.

Couldn't all this stuff about Bach putting his name into music be conspiracy theory? I mean, people find hidden codes in everything. Someone even disproved "hidden code finding" by "decoding" a fisheries act and finding words about fish, the ocean, etc. "encoded" into the text.


That sounds like something I would say. HAHA. Although it is true, Bach used mathematics extensively in his compositions. Like many theorists before him did, back then the science we know as theory was still very hazy and not completely conclusive. Of course Bach changed that, and his ideas have influences music til this day. And all those ideas are backed behind mathematics, and he used them in writing to prove his point.

I can imagine the pressure put on these young prodigys by their parents to be successfull was tremendous.


Definitely Mozart, I think he had it the worst of anyone. He had a good father but he disagreed with every Mozart did outside of music, even marriage. I know his father died without resolving some of the things he put his son through.
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chris mood
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09/10/2003 3:13 pm
Mozart actually had a lot of commercial success during his lifetime, mostly do to his operas.

As far as I know, Bach worked in the Fuedel system, where you were hired by a wealthy family to compose music for daily events. You where housed on the premesis, and pretty much acted as a servant, except your job was to produce music. But I'm sure if they needed someone to chop firewood or help out in the kitchen you were called upon. I know Bach had a large family and probably choose this way of life for its stability and security rather then be a freelance composer/musician/educator and work on commission like Mozart / Beethoven / Paginini etc.
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09/10/2003 3:40 pm
Originally posted by Azrael
Couldn't all this stuff about Bach putting his name into music be conspiracy theory? I mean, people find hidden codes in everything. Someone even disproved "hidden code finding" by "decoding" a fisheries act and finding words about fish, the ocean, etc. "encoded" into the text.


DEFINITELY no - period. get into his works and theory and youĀ“ll understand why.


Check out these links that prove, mathematically, that Moby Dick predicted the assassinations of Gandhi, RFK, Lady Diana, and more.

Moby Dick codes

Main math code page

I know that these are codes found in written works, but I believe that it proves that it's possible to find codes in anything, given the correct algorithm. Sorry to be such a skeptic, it's just my nature!
... and that's all I have to say about that.

[U]ALL[/U] generalizations are [U]WRONG[/U]

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noticingthemistake
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09/10/2003 3:48 pm
Mozart had his up and his downs. Most of his success was during his childhood and the last few years of his life. During his mid-life he had alot of things go wrong, I know he tried for lead composer but was turned down several times. It wasn't until the Giovanni Opera until he finally made it. Also throughout the rest of the world he didn't have commercial success, the french and italians mostly. He made his career in Prague I believe. Like most genius of there art, he was not truely appreciated by the world until after his death.
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Azrael
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09/10/2003 4:11 pm
Originally posted by iamthe_eggman

Check out these links that prove, mathematically, that Moby Dick predicted the assassinations of Gandhi, RFK, Lady Diana, and more.

Moby Dick codes

Main math code page

I know that these are codes found in written works, but I believe that it proves that it's possible to find codes in anything, given the correct algorithm. Sorry to be such a skeptic, it's just my nature!


LOL - well - the bach stuff is proven - its not just randomly searching for anything code-like - we KNOW that bach did this intentionally because he himself said so. there was a system to do what he did called "hexachord"
the art of the fuge was written by bach in the sam amount of time that someone would need to simply copy it 1:1.
there are whole books (real thick books) on analysis of his "chiaconna" for example. if you read trough it all, you can - even without knowing the background - tell that all the mathematics involved in these analysis can impossibly be just a remarcable coincidence. this is impossible without a system - aswell as all the mirror-number-goldensection-etc stuff. there is no need to doubt it here *L* its a differnt story with that moby-dick thingy *LOL*

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concrete chaos
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09/10/2003 11:48 pm
There are musicians who are creating good classical / instrumental

jan garbarek....saxaphonist joins the hilliard ensemble just to name one...most ppl today only get to hear about certain bands u really have to dig deep to find non marketed bands and i believe many musicians are making good music theres just no company that will sign em or release their records, maybe they dont want to release their records, knowing what the industry does to ur music.

and yes ppl's lives today are not romantic, where greenery used to be the scenery and night would be when its dark ie very natural way of living

even art take a look at renaissance paintings the symbolist themes, [pre]raphaelite etc...
and look at art when the WW1 / 2 started [dada, surrealism]

its very diff.....music changed from gregorian chant to autechre......its called periods.
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chris mood
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09/11/2003 12:20 am
Very true...If a modern composer wrote something in the style of the Romantic era it would be considered dated.

Just like if a rock musician wrote something in the style of the 5o's (aka Chuck Berry or Bill Haley) it could be just as good or authentic, but it would be dated and I don't think too many people would pay attention to it.
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09/11/2003 2:55 am
Too bad, that 50s rock was pretty catchy. And by the way, Don Giovanni is the greatest Opera ever.
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chucklivesoninmyheart
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09/11/2003 3:33 am
Does anyone know the opera score in Hannibal the movie?That had a great "ascension"(tough to explain)while having a genreraly depressing theme...I would love to incorporate that idea(not the exact sound)into my playing...great possabilities...Would also like a few terms to describe it and theory behind it(if any).

Later! \m/ man this cold sucks!
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noticingthemistake
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09/11/2003 7:22 am
The Opera on Hannibal is called Vide Cor Meum by Andrea Bocceli. Well I think it is the one your refering too. I don't have the DVD and I can't recall the piece by memory but you might be able to find something on the net about it.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 09-11-2003 at 02:25 AM]
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09/11/2003 7:39 am
Originally posted by chris mood
Very true...If a modern composer wrote something in the style of the Romantic era it would be considered dated.

Just like if a rock musician wrote something in the style of the 5o's (aka Chuck Berry or Bill Haley) it could be just as good or authentic, but it would be dated and I don't think too many people would pay attention to it.


Yeah this what I meant by not having great classical composers spawning up today. I think it was the innovations that composers like Bach, Mozart, and Paganini made that made them so great. Like Jimi Hendrix on guitar, of course there are more sound players than him but no one has really changed the face of guitar music like him. Like those composers made the face of classical music what it is. Our society holds the innovators of art above the greatest of there practice. Another example is Punk music, take the Ramones. Not the greatest punk band but you can't think of punk without considering the Ramones. Hopefully I'm making sense in what I'm trying to say. :D

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chris mood
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09/11/2003 2:27 pm
Yeah...I think Stravinsky was probably the last great classical composer to recieve world wide recognition and success.
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concrete chaos
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09/11/2003 9:45 pm
yeah speaking of the lecter films...danny elfman is a pretty good composer, he did the red dragon ost. im not sure if he did the hannibal one too. ??

he even has 'march of the dead' [evil dead 2] for any gore / b movie ppl out there.

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noticingthemistake
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09/12/2003 6:17 am
Originally posted by concrete chaos
yeah speaking of the lecter films...danny elfman is a pretty good composer, he did the red dragon ost. im not sure if he did the hannibal one too. ??

he even has 'march of the dead' [evil dead 2] for any gore / b movie ppl out there.


Yeah Danny Elfman is a good score writter. He's does alot of good movies, Sleepy Hollow, Batman, Army of Darkness, Nightmare before Christmas, Dick Tracy, and a few others. Hans Zimmer did Hannibal. Evil dead f*&king rocks man, so does Army of Darkness. I watched Dead Alive (the english version of evil dead) just a few weeks ago, hard to believe Peter Jackson (director of LOTR) directed that.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 09-12-2003 at 01:31 AM]
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
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