back then

what was is that happened back in the romantic periods and stuff that brought great composers like bach mozart paganini ect..u dont see many inspiring people these days that could write like they could..were did all the inspiration go?

I think the question should be restated as "what is it that didn't happen in the romantic period that inspired great bodies of musical literature?".
I would say TV, computers, video games, movies, and a generally complex system of life that seems to drain the creativeness out of people and take up all their time.

Plus....whose to say 10 symphonies weren't written this year as great or better then Beethovens 5th, and the publishers decided not to publish them because they thought no one was interested and the orchestras'decided not to play them because who knows why (we all know the orchestras are so supportive of contemporary composers).

True. You have to look at the music that was available at the time. There was no distorted guitars, or electric guitars for that matter. Just old fashioned piano. Now there's so many types of music, that classical just gets put on the back burner. The next Beethoven or Mozart might not be discovered for another 200 years after his death when someone is digging through classical music and hears his piece.

yeah, it's amazing how much work you can get done when you don't have all the usual distractions.
During the blackout recently, I spent all my time listening to my portable CD player and going through albums I hadn't heard in years. When the batteries ran out all there was left to do was either read music magazines or practice guitar. It was a like a 2 day forced music camp.
I noticed ever since how much time is wasted watching TV, playing video games & surfing the internet.

it was the old way of thinking.
you see - back then, peeps had a different way to approach all that artsy stuff. Architecture, Paintings, Music.. it all followed the same rules. Cathedrals for example - they are build the same way that composers like bach wrote his compositions. it is said, that cathedrals are a frozen piece of music. you can trace that back till you reach the writings of the bible (to which the music was is cosely related). there also was alot of mathematics involved (not exclusively though - they also had some feel of course). if you analyze bach´s music for example you can see a breathtaking amount of number-mysticism, symmetrical note-arrangements, golden section, fibunacci-rows, etc.
like ein "the art of the fuge" for example.

For those who dont know what the golden section is:



The whole piece 'a' is divided in 2 smaller pieces. the bigger of those pieces 'b' (the Major) has the same proportion to 'a' as the smaller piece 'c' (the Minor) has to 'b'. In numbers that is 0.382 : 0.618 (aprox used as 3:5). This ratio comes pretty natural and harmonic to the mind of the human because this ratio often occurs in nature itself. and since we are part of the nature, we find that ratio pretty pleasurable. alot of artists have used that golden section in their art as stated before. the golden section is always a place where something rather special occurs like the highest note of a piece, or the eyline of a face in a painting, etc

"Musica est disciplina, quae de numeris loquitur" - Music is a discipline, that talks through numbers.

Bach managed it, to code his name B-A-C-H into the Art of the Fuge.

Here´s a short glimpse of how he constructed his art of fuge:

From the whole piece, the golden section is exactly at measure 1373. if you count those digits together, you get the number 14 - 14 is the code for the name BACH (in an alphabetical order the letters B=2 (second letter), A=1, C=3 and H=8 --> 2+1+3+8=14). Measure 1373 is in the octave-canon (its measure 64 in that piece) - that measure is - without a reason in the sense of a counterpoint kept single-voiced.

the golden section if you count the number of the pieces of the art of the fuge which is 18 (mirrorfuges-pairs counted as one) is after the 11th piece. and that exactly where the axis for the whole symmetry of the piece lies.

and a small example or the relation to the bible:

in Corinthian 13 the word MIRROR (he used alot of mirrorimages n his music) is in the 12 sentence - so you have the numbers 12 and 13. the two mirrorfuges have the numbers 12 and 13.

after the general-rest in CP 13 there are 12 more measures to come

Cp 9 has exactly 130 measures while CP 10 has 120

(theoretically) in the last 21 measures of the last fuge there would be 13 theme-entries.

13 theme-entries in CP. 2 and 12 theme-entries in Cp.3

plus - the first Corinthian letter is in the 7th book of the new testament. the word mirror in german has 7 letters (Spiegel). the first 7 Cp (CP=Counterpoint) are symmetrical and the first theme of the finishing fuge has 7 notes.

the 3rd theme of the last fuge consists of the notes b-a-c-h (it has to be said that a B in germany is a B-FLAT in the rest of the world and an H in germany is a B in the rest of the world - that is because some stupid monk has written a b that looked like an h and all the other monks copied that mistake)

this is only a VERY SMALL glimpse into bachs music and his way of thinking. his works are FULL if such spectacular number-magic and relations, that one can only stand in awe at what this dude (and alot of other guys back then) did.

[Edited by Azrael on 09-08-2003 at 01:40 AM]

Wow! :)

Posts like that one remind me of why I love this site so much.

Thank you, Azrael!

were does one like azreal go about learning all this stuff??

well - i happens when you show some interrest for music and its history, plus i got the advantage to live in the area where it all happened ... oh wait... what do you mean by "one like Azrael" ??? *L*

i didnt mean anything offensive u just usualy always have some interesting post or somthin that some of us (not all) didnt have a clue about..bassically u really know ur stuff...were did u go aobut learnin this stuff??

Nice touch, Azrael. Yes, it is true that Bach was notorious for puting multiple melodies, and even his own name in his songs. Basically, Bach was awesome. But as to the next Beethoven/Mozart/Vivaldi/Bizet/Puccini, we may never see one, at least in that form of music, mainly because of its lack of mainstreamity (that's a new word). The closest I can think of, mainly because of his HEAVY classical influences is Yngwie Malmsteen, who is an INCREDIBLE guitarist. Modern day composers who write classical style music are not necessarily a rarity, but because of their lack of popularity you won't hear about them from your local music store clerk. The next Bach is among us, but can we find him? I doubt it.

I'd throw in Frank Zappa with Bach, Beethoven, et all.

Originally posted by Azrael
what do you mean by "one like Azrael" ??? *L*

I think you stepped out of your skin on that one, and broke the mold of the old Azreal or something. HAHA just kidding. Great Stuff though. :) I read similar stuff in a book on the Analysis of Bach, he had some crazy ways to come up with compositions. In the way I don't think of him much for his composing but his theory on music.

To the main question of what happened to works of the caliber of Mozart, bach, and paganini. I agree with everyone that they're probably are people who still write amazing symphonies without having them being noticed to the world. Remember it's a different world then and now, just like you don't hear anyone becoming BIG from writing grunge anymore. You're not going hear about any great Classical composers coming out now. Also life was a lot simpler then, and they’re was much time to pursue such a level of skill. Also the tools used in composition in those times are becoming history.

One is music today doesn't have much variation. Variation is taking one theme or motif and changing it in several different ways. By adding notes, taking out notes, changing notes, etc, but without changing the theme. The effect is making it new but still having it sound familiar. Beethoven was a master of this skill. Just listen to the 5th symphony, it's the same throughout the entire first movement but slightly altered in pitch each time. Same with Ode to Joy, it's the same motif for the first 8 minutes of the piece. The part that seems different in the middle is actually just a variation of the cello part under the main melody.

Counterpoint is a tool of variation. Most counterpoint in those times was reintroducing a theme already established but adding something new over top of it to create novelty. A composer would do this several times throughout the piece, introducing several variations of theme while adding different counterpoints. Today's music lacks this severely because most can’t take a simple theme that may be 1 minute long, and lengthen it to 10 minutes. Another thing that should be understood about adding counterpoint is which point will be in the foreground and which in the background. A hard lesson to learn in composing is balancing this from one theme to the next, and even knowing which will be in the foreground and background. They both can’t.

Development of theme is also not used much in today's music. Now if Ode to joy was written today, an artist would probably start it right with the climax instead of letting it develop for 2 or 3 minutes. Which is the average time for an entire song today. So developing a theme is a tool that is lost in most modern music.

I would write many others but it would just never end, and probably be too much for a post. That's just a few of the skills used then more than today. Both of these skills together is what made symphonies 15-20 minutes long, rather than 2-3 minutes. A big difference in music today and music then.

Another thing that made those guys great artists is a skill called Perfect pitch. Having this skill allows you to completely understand a pitch in sense far deeper than an average person. Guys like Mozart and Bach said each pitch has a personality, color, or any sort of description. Imagine hearing a pitch so deeply that it makes you relive something in life. Some are even quoted as a note like C, makes them think of sitting on a park bench looking out onto a beach. This insight dramatically enhances artistic creativity. Sounds like bull but you also hear people who look at paintings and say similar things, not different when it comes to hearing.

What made Mozart so great was his ability to bring character to his music. His music just wasn’t a sequence of notes and harmonies that sound good together, he gave his music life that was never there before. Just listen to the Giovanni Opera, I don’t like Opera that much either. But that opera, you can completely sense what is going on in the play without even seeing it but hearing it. It’s amazing, there’s a part where the characters in the play become panicked and how the music goes is what is interesting. Mozart plays a string of staccato notes in a nervous manner. You’ll get nervous just listening to it. Makes sense yes but the part is also written in free time instead of structured like Bach did and many before. Mozart changed the way we looked at music, from the art to bringing it to life.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 09-09-2003 at 08:34 PM]

Long post, dude. Hey, you know what I miss? The harpsichord! That is a cool sounding instrument. Give me all the "Piano Forte, oooo Crescendo" arguments you want, that harpsicord has a cool sound.

Yeah I had alot to say. It would have been longer if I would have gone into written more about each topic. Probably didn't explain them enough but I'm sure someone will get it. BTW, yeah the harpischord is cool. The Clavient is cool too for really weird stuff.

are ther any classical guitarists or eletric guitarist that have done the same?? i mean if paganini can do it on a then its possible on a guitar or atleast one with 30 some odd frets..yngwies concerto was somewat inspriring to me and the really melodic classical pieces by anomoyous(sp)

Its simply a different way of writing,and motive behind it.Now popular music is simple to appeal the huge market of ...well lets be honest...musically retarded people.Many classical composers of old wrote pieces that were spawned from a clear mind.They had no chains bonding them to a common bias.The creative part of your mind is effected by life...and lets just say our lives now dont leave much to the imagination anymore.They lived simple lives,but expressed imagination and yearning through there unmolested minds and the gift of music.
Are there mozarts and bachs out there?There sure are...break down the music you find amazing and anylize it.You'll be surprised.

Just a wierd thing I saw on CNN...Black holes(you know those things that light cant escape from?)"hum" Bb(B flat)57 octaves below C,which is inaudible to human ears...not sure who discoverd it...but if its true then it further supports the idea of music being the language of the universe.That just might give you bowel problems though.

\m/ later!

they did have to write stuff for certain people. most of the time it was religious. bach was owned by the duke. sort of the forerunner to the record company

Originally posted by chucklivesoninmyheart
Just a wierd thing I saw on CNN...Black holes(you know those things that light cant escape from?)"hum" Bb(B flat)57 octaves below C,which is inaudible to human ears...not sure who discoverd it...but if its true then it further supports the idea of music being the language of the universe.That just might give you bowel problems though.

\m/ later!

according to tolkien in the Silmarillion, the world was created out of musical vibrations. the music and singing of the Ainur were what created everything. it's pretty cool to think about

Originally posted by noticingthemistake

You're not going hear about any great Classical composers coming out now.

Well - that is absolutely not true - you just arent into that kind of music to see its development. there are HEAPS of well known, well payed composers out there who are known all over the world. they just arent played on MTV. the 20th century is FULL of truly amazing composers - and so will the 21st century be

Also life was a lot simpler then, and they’re was much time to pursue such a level of skill.

Simpler? well - hardly. what is so hard about todays life? i guess it was alot harder to get your mouth fed back in those days where you had to work REAL hard.

Also the tools used in composition in those times are becoming history.

That is true - just think of the Hexachord.

In Japan Classical stuff is alot more used than music here in america. although its kinda mixed with differnt stuff. its not neo classical, its kinda strange but i love it.

check out the band Malice Mizer to see what im talking about